convert to the latin names .. then use google images.. to SEE the potential of various plants ...

ken

thanks Ken, yup done the latin name look up potential thing. i guess i'll stick w/ the spacing i have on my plan (which takes the potential into account) . my husband is a "plant them closer" type & i am very conservative in spacing (hence the reason for no privacy yet). there does seem to be some mixed info on the web on sizes, but i always imagine them at their largest.

I like big, cheap shrubs for instant privacy then you can remove them in a decade when their presence is no longer needed.

hi cecily- mind sharing a few names of these shrubs?

Using only the 4 trees you have mentioned the 3 conifers should become a closely spaced background screen, with the Birch becoming a feature tree placed well in front of those. But these are all large growing plants, which in time are not going to fit within a too small of a space no matter how you arrange them. In my area (western USDA 8) River Birch is among those that become landmark trees under favorable circumstances. For example one in the Seattle arboretum was over 76 ft. high, another there over 72 ft. tall some years ago (2004-5). A third Seattle specimen, this time in Lake View Cemetery had a height of 58 ft., with an average crown spread of more than 62 ft. during the same period.

Eastern Red Cedar isn't very shade tolerant and can't regenerate lost lower limbs. It probably needs more space then any of the others. I find it looks ratty if it doesn't have some space.

River Birch and Thuja are more shade tolerant and can probably function with less space. (Why thuja is so overused)

Pitch Pine and Eastern Red cedar will want less water and better drainage then the thuja or River Birch...be aware of that when choosing what goes where.

Many here would disagree, but I'd be fine planting a river birch within 15 feet of a neighbor's fence. Realistically, in many neighborhoods there would be no trees if people followed the spacing rules some online recommend.

"Spread" figures you get online are deceptive. The things you have to think about is spread when (after how many years) and at what height. Some huge trees take up less ground level yard space then a shrub because their branches are above your head. I like to mix trees with differing levels of shade tolerance and life expectancies. The fast growing/short lived trees give quick results and die before the slower growing trees reach maturity.

If you want to squeeze in more trees, I'd probably add American Holly to this mix. It could survive beneath the branches of the river birch and be pruned to limit it's size.

Oh, since you talked about them earlier, these are some pictures of my Dad's Easter Red Cedar.

thank you elincoln i appreciate your words. i love that you are a fan of ilex opaca. would it do okay under the shade of my neighbor's huge norway maple do you think? and how much room would you suggest for him?

I love them but I'm not an expert. Probably not? Norway maple are notorious for dense shade...might be pushing it. If it were an oak, elm or Honeylocust it would probably be fine.

How much space depends on whether you care about good form and if you are going to put the time and effort into pruning her.

And you probably want a her. They come in males and females, and it is the females that have the berries.

What grows best under Norway Maple is bare dirt. And any tree with a pointed shape - such as that of American Holly - creates a visual tension when placed so that it appears to be poking up into the crown of a spreading tree. And may become physically distorted from the effects of the shading produced by the crown of the larger tree above it.

In any situation where a tree is not likely to remain within the designated, available space the answer is to plant a smaller tree (or shrub) instead. Adjoining property owners cannon be counted on to appreciate and leave alone trees that overhang their land. Even if an existing neighbor appears to be amenable to the nearby planting of a large growing tree the same party will probably not be present decades later, when the tree is 60 ft. wide.

If it hasn't been disfigured by the cutting back of unwanted side branches before then.

mmmm... good points. really want a ilex opaca but not sure i really have room. might have to look into foster or yaupon then. i have a struggling birch tree under the norway maple now :(

I disagree with Embothrium aesthetic judgments but not his opinion on Norway maple. I'm not the "good form" snob some here are.
I think you could get away with sticking an ilex opaca under the River Birch or next to the thuja. Or you could use one of the many "shrub form" hollies...unfortunately those aren't native.

If a birch is struggling there, that tells me:

a.) Some trees can survive there and
b.) It is tough for even shade tolerant trees.
I'd expect an American Holly would do about as well there as the birch would.

You could try to stick a thuja, American beech, tupelo, Southern Magnolia, yews, or Eastern Hophorneam (Ostrya virginiana), under there.

What is the soil & drainage like there? What kind of birch is struggling under the maple? Could you post some pictures so we have a sense of what we are dealing with?

Birches tend to kill smaller plants beneath them after about 15 years. And you don't want to plant anything beneath them that will grow up and hide their bark.

you guys are great & i really appreciate every single reply since it took everyone time to type something out. i am really torn w/ the holly. i want to do natives. i really don't want to have a yard full of thuja greens. i'm a bit paralyzed by decisions and also a bit sick on what really should be taken out now, or what the future brings (super large trees). i'm going to give it all another mull over. i will focus on what is really working and what (native shrubs) i want to add. i thank you again & having said all that.. i'm still open to opinions & advice .. you guys have very good insight.

oh goodness, reading this back it looks like i'm ending this thread. sorry, didn't mean to imply that. i've just re-read everyones' above replies. really good points & really taking it all into consideration.

edlincoln- since you asked... the a river birch (Betula nigra). it's a shaded (because of the norway maple from neighbor) wet area of the yard. planted bare root about 3 years ago. dropped leaves early from the trunk in the middle last spring. all the leaves curled & dried up. that "main" center trunk is very brittle trunk hardly any flexibility from the twigs. the other trunks & water sprouts (??) are thriving. i'm debating w/ pulling it out & starting over (w/ a dura heat in a better spot). any thoughts?

That is pretty dense. Are those the thuja in the background, or Eastern Red Cedar? I'm way more willing to pack trees in densely then Embothrium and I think that is too many for the middle of your yard...when those fill out, you won't have much space to walk under. I tend to like high branching trees in the center of the yard with low branching conical conifers along the northern edge. I'd almost be inclined to move a few closer to the fence. If a river birch were there you could eventually walk underneath it. If you wanted holly, you could probably remove a couple of them and
replace them with holly.

I'm torn about that river birch. If the river birch survived it's first and second year in that spot part of me would be inclined to give it a chance. Do you really think heat is the problem? River birch tolerate urban areas, heat and disease better then most birch, but they are actually not the most shade tolerant birch. If you think shade is the problem, maybe yellow birch might tolerate the shade better? If you do decide to move the birch, Thuja and Holly are probably the trees you are considering that would be happiest in that spot. Holly should do a little better in that spot then river birch, if it's not too wet. If the spot is really wet, thuja would do even better.

I'm tempted to swap that river birch near the fence with one one of the thujas..or put your holly there. But again, I'm always hesitant to remove mature trees.

Where were you going to put the Pitch Pine and Eastern Red Cedar? They aren't very shade tolerant, and thus less well suited to crowding trees together then the thuja.

i just took this pic from our bedroom upstairs to give you a better overall view. i think the pic i posted b4 is a bit deceiving as it was taken standing on the left of the birch (not a headon shot).

the birch is to the left of that wagon. there are currently 10 thuja greens. i'm going to take the far right one out and replace w/ eastern red cedar (gets lots of sun). i'm thinking of taking the struggling birch out, and replacing with dura heat right by that tree stump (slighty right of that wagon) which would be right in the middle of the garden & give us even more privacy on the deck.

the (TINY) pitch pine is the little one with chicken wire around it, off to the right of that 4x8 (my bird feeder). i'm toying with taking out 1-3 thuja greens. i don't need them all. currently there are 10x thuja green giants ... too much imo ... whadya think? you said too dense. is that what you mean?

PS- our property goes about 10' in from the thuja greens to a split rail fence. the neighbor is behind, with the shed & larger trees.

so appreciate your time!

OK, you have a bit more space then I feared.

As I said, I wouldn't replace the river birch with dura heat. Dura heat is presumable a type of river birch more tolerant of heat, but I don't think heat is your problem. Do you think it is shade or wet feet that is hurting it?

I'd also replace a few of the green giants with holly for variety. I don't think your yard is big enough for ten green GIANTS.

ok! i think the birch just didn't transplant well. i kindof like the smaller-ish size of the dura heat. i'm worried about butula nigra swallowing much of the yard. agree on the variety. i want more diversity for sure & would rather take some TG giants out now while i can still mange.

if it were your yard, how many would thuja greens would you take out? be honest w/ me ..i can take it ;-) and are we talking ilex opaca holly?

Remember, a tree swallowing much of the yard isn't necessarily a problem if the branches are high enough...you can sit beneath branches, grow hosta beneath the branches, etc.

Honestly? I'd probably get rid of about 5 of the Green Giants. Replace them with two or three ilex opaca and maybe a yew or sweetbay Magnolia for variety.

Yes, I was thinking about Ilex opaca, although you might have more room for some of the smaller shrub hollies or a fastigae one like sky pencil. I live farther north and have a smaller portfolio of hollies to use.

Since you appear to want a hedge like screening density close spacing of the conifers such as you have done already is desirable. However I wouldn't use the existing drift-like arrangement of them as those individuals that come forward from the main row like grouping are just going to eat up additional space unnecessarily - viewed from where you are taking the pictures the ultimate effect will still be that of a green wall, whether it consists of a single row or not. And that wall is going to become tall, appear to loom over the site in time even if only consisting of one row.

If the birch is able to fulfill its genetic potential on your property it will eventually grow as big as the entire area you are showing in these views. Maybe you should replace it with another, smaller growing kind of birch - or other kind of tree entirely - that also offers bark interest, if that is the priority.

If the soil ever dries much there you may find it quite difficult to keep other plants happy beneath a big birch. And you don't want to be cutting branches of any size off of birches as these do not handle trunk wounds very well. Plus when the main point of a specimen is the appearance of its bark it is counterproductive to be reducing the bark bearing surface area. That would be the main reason to plant a multi-trunked example as you have done, to end up with more bark to look at.

thx both of you! your thoughts (together) are very similar to the direction i want to go. i had posted over @ the conifer forum about these thuja greens being deer browsed. since the front 3 are the weaker ones, i think they will be the 1st ones i take out this year.

Area you are showing is small enough that it should be possible to put effective and affordable deer fencing around the outside, instead of having individual tree enclosures within the involved space. (Enclosures which the deer have been defeating, although it appeared earlier the problem there was probably usage of the wrong kind of wire). 10 ft. high plastic deer netting stapled to peeler poles, for instance. If you fence all or part of your garden in this manner you will of course also have to install gates using the same 10 ft. high netting, so that these do not become entry points for the animals.

There are a couple strategies you can use for a living privacy screen. There is the "solid wall of green" strategy...a solid hedge. There is the "mixed border" strategy, with a diverse mix of plants, multiple rows, and drifts. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

The "wall of green" strategy provides more complete screening and makes weeding by untrained gardeners easier, but looks awful if some of the hedging plants die. (And the plants that give quick results can outgrow their spots). The mixed border can still look good if a component dies, and provides opportunities to work in things that flower or fruit at different times of year. It usually takes more space, however.

One of your problems is you seem unclear on what strategy you want to use. You talk in terms of a mixed border, but what you have seems closer to the "Wall of Green" look.

The other problem you have is you started out putting thuja in the prime spots for trees where many different trees could function, and the spots that are left are spots where (ironically) little other then thuja can survive.
(I made that mistake myself...I started my planting with cheap and obvious stuff, and had fewer good spots left when I learned more and got creative. "Fortunately" many of my early efforts died, freeing up space...)

hmmmmm.. i actually agree w/ you completely. we do have a wall of green look going on & the TG giants are now growing (some well!) in prime spots that i would've loved to have put in holly and eastern red cedar. but we also started cheap & desperately needed privacy quick.

wondering how to rectify it. i will be adding in viburnums, mountain laurel in the next year and i'm well aware i may have all too much all very soon. i'm thinking of pulling (looking at my overview pic i posted) #5, #7 & #8. they are weak enough for me to do it on my own.

that will leave me with 4x strong TG's and 3x that are questionable. i'm also pulling the river birch i've decided. i'm bold enough to admit my mistakes & confident enough to rectify them. but i better do it soon. if everything grows too big, i'm in trouble.

Not sure what your needs are. The thread title hints at wanting privacy faster than the screening GGs grow. To close the gaps quicker, there were good suggestions on planting fast-growing shrubs and/or vines on trellises or obelisks. You can tailor these plantings according to your own sense of aesthetics and over time modify these plantings, which is easier to do than with trees.

A different aspect that did not come up yet is the yard space that you and your family actually use. If all of your plantings mature and you still have sufficient space, then you may not have a space issue at all. The way you and your family use the yard space also plays an important role. If your kids and their friends want to play soccer, then a birch tree in the middle of the yard is of course an obstacle, but that same birch tree is a great asset for garden parties, for example.

Embothrium - thanks again for the encouragement on the deer fencing. i hear you & it's on my must do list before buying any other plants/trees!

Ontario_Canada5a_USDA4b: If I understand correctly, she wanted quick results, planted Green Giants, and is now having second thought about that look.

alexiebalexie: What you *DO* depends on what results you want and how much money and time you want to spend to achieve it.

If you want screening fast or the solid wall of green look, you just dig up the front row of thuja and move some of them to the back near the fence.

If you want a mixed border with interesting native planting, you remove a few Green Giants scattered throughout and plant holly and Mountain Laurel. To some extent it would mean "going back to the drawingboard" and setting your plan for privacy back a few years back.

Not sure you have room for viburnum...I don't think they fit into this plan. Mountain Laurel is a shade tolerant evergreen native, so I suppose it fits into the privacy screen and native garden plans if you remove some Green Giant. Your yard isn't that big and there seem to be some pretty large trees you like...you do have to make some choices.

edlincoln- oh man, you just get me. you put words to my thoughts. that is EXACTLY my thoughts & my dilemma. going back to the drawing board couldn't be more on point. i'm re-doing my drawing plans as we speak. i've had lots of ideas to consider. the mountain laurel will work well in my wet shaded area, so will the winterberry (w/ a bit more sun). but i'm pretty confident now i will remove four struggling TG giants now. i'm removing the birch too, sadly, the main trunk snapped in our recent storm and i take that as nature's way of telling me it needs to go & i have to start over. i'm adding fothergilla, sweetspire, and clethra into the mix. i have disagree with you i think i have room for a viburnum. why do you think that?

edit: just realized what you don't see in my pic. is i'm filling in the whole area up to say, the wagon & to each side of our property lines.so that bed in the middle will be extended out & back to *one day* no grass and just native shrubs. we will have just a little bit of lawn to put a hammock, add a shed on the side, etc. we want a small yard. maybe that's why you think i don't have the room? again, always open to suggestions.

A body can produce a fully enclosed yet still accessible and planted outdoor space by having sheared hedges around the outside, like the walls of a building with lawn - the equivalent of carpeting in a room - taking up nearly all of the remaining space inside. And with deciduous trees - the furniture analog, I guess - planted here and there in the lawn for interest (or fruit or nuts, for those so inclined). Essentially an orchard with hedges. The hedging can be prevented from becoming monotonous by planting a different kind on each side, resulting in there being four kinds of hedge instead of one. So the backdrop changes each time a different direction is looked in, instead of the same material all the way around producing an impression of there being too much of it. In order to optimize this result each kind of hedge used should look noticeably different from the others (yet all should be evergreen, climate permitting or the screen becomes transparent in winter. And there is less visual contrast with the deciduous lawn specimens).

The main purpose of the shearing is to prevent the hedging from becoming too tall and wide, a consistent problem with any hedges that grow fast enough to size up within commonly desired time frames. While mowing and shearing are work themselves this layout does have the advantage of not having to be weeded much, as the majority of the horizontal space is occupied by either mowed turf or dense hedges. If the hedges are sheared and the deciduous trees all have elevated crowns it should be possible to mow right up to them, once both sets are big enough. Of course, whoever does the mowing (or weed eating) needs to avoid hitting the bottoms of the hedges or the trunks of the trees when doing so.

this has been SO much to think about.

i decided what i'm doing. thanks for all the advice. i've had a ton to think about. i think edlincoln said it best that what i want is a bit of a do-over.

also focusing on getting funds together to erect deer fencing as the next big project. over it w/ the deer.

------------

update: i did it today. i took out 5 of the Thuja Green Giants & the struggling river birch.

Since you have said you are interested in them, here are my baby pitch pine and American Holly. (I got the holly at an end-of-season sale and planted them too late...hopefully they will green up in the spring. Fingers crossed.)

looking good! is this from recently? if so, they survived the winter well. i don't have the room for the holly myself- which is a bummer - but i do have the pitch pine, although i'm probably going to have to move it over in the fall to give everything enough room. what's the spacing between your trees? looks like 25+ft? you're lucky to have so much room! thx for sharing.

Pictures are from yesterday. The holly and pitch pine are two staggered rows with the trees in each row being about 25 feet apart. Holly is 13 feet from the road, the pitch pine are 30-35 feet from the road. Holly was planted last fall way too late. The bigger pitch pine was planted the Fall before that, the smaller one was a bare root twig a couple years before that.