Fred do you live in Montana? The only one needed here is the sewer. Just done a home and did not need one on any other part. Liecned contractor doing your work or not!!!
Ken

Ken, In my so far 35+ year career, I have done construction projects in and Outside of Whitefish, Kalispell, Augusta, Missoula, Butte, Bozeman, Livingston, Helena, White Sulpher, Great Falls, Red Lodge, Nye, Absaroke, Roundup, Melstone, Laurel, Billings, Miles City, and Fort Peck, to name a few, and have needed (and obtained) State plumbing and electrical permits and inspections for all out-of-local-jurisdiction work except for one plumbing permit when there was no inspector for the south eastern area at that time.

Here is a list of cities/towns that are allowed to do their own inspections. Everywhere else must get a state permit.

http://bsd.dli.mt.gov/building-codes-permits/certified-government

The Structure of small (5 unit) residential, farm building, etc are the only things exempt from permits and inspections outside of those listed cities, not the plumbing or electrical. The Law still requires the structure to meet the IRC requirements even though there are no permits or inspections on the structure.

Wow, this is unfortunate. I've seen this bs on other feeds so don't feel alone. I wish people could just stick to being helpful and positive. Anyway, you should check out YouTube so you get an idea of the process. I'm a visual type, it makes more sense to actually see the process. As for code, we all want things done correctly. I assure you people don't always get permits. It's good you are getting this sorted out now and don't be afraid to update more, just do your research and things go a little smoother. Once you find the right tradespeople it's a whole lot easier, you just need the cash. Good luck!

OK, here's an update on the situation, heads up, this is a bit lengthy.

This morning, I addressed my concerns, it was well perceived and he cooperated and agreed with my assessment. He had to make a run to get some materials to correct the problem.

While he was gone I got a return call from a well documented contractor that I have recently been put in contact with from a close friend who family owns a heating and cooling business. (last part is irrelevant other than I know they do great work and follow codes etc..)

Anyway, this new contractor and I spoke for a while, he saw the same pics and he reiterated everything that I already suspected and that had been discussed here. Turns out he lives very close to me. He suspected, as I did, that the current contractor is in over his head. As a favor, he offered to come by, take a look and speak with the young contractor and teach him/mentor him so to speak. In my opinion this was a great deal and offer, now I just have to figure out a way to talk to the young contractor.

A while later, new contractor arrives, looks everything over, face in palm and head shaking and says, well.... and again reiterates everything stated above and that I had suspected.

While we were chatting, young contractor returns, I cut him off outside and we have a chat. I again explained my concerns, and told him about my "old friend" that I had forgotten does this type of work. I told him that I was very concerned with the waterproofing and the build of the pan, liner etc. and that I had asked him to take a look as a second opinion. I then asked him if he had a problem taking a little advice from him, luckily he said he didn't mind.

We went in and I introduced them, New contractor starts talking to him and gracefully without bashing his work explained to him his concerns and how his method has not had any warranty or claims in 22 years. Then he proceeded to tell him what he does and how he does it. To both our surprise, the young contractor was intrigued, even asked questions and they swapped numbers. After a couple of minutes I left the room and let them chat and after a few the New contractor came out and told me that he thought it had gone really well, and felt comfortable with the young guy as he asked a few more questions.

With that said, we both came to the conclusion that he was probably in over his head, and has never had anyone take the time to show him the proper way to do it.

Now with the kindness, generosity and supervision of this new contractor, he is going to learn the proper way to do it, get to keep this job, and I get my shower done correctly with minimal hit to my budget.

I should note, like the new contractor said, we were all young once and just starting out. Many people do not have the opportunity to be taught the correct way of doing things. Hopefully, he will take this opportunity and embrace it and it will make him better at what he does as well as help him grow a successful business.

Thanks again for all of your comments and advice.

Well! If only all the stories could end like this. I'm happy that you know someone who's an expert and happy that you were open to the contractor learning.

Very, very glad your story has a "happy ending". One of the big problems with tile in the USA is a lack of "certification". If you're a plumber, or an electrician, you need to work under supervision while you learn. Tile should be the same. To install a simple floor of 12" square tile or smaller, in a small foyer or laundry room, is fairly simple after you have read all you can about methods and materials. To tile a shower takes great skill, up-to-date knowledge, math skills, AND an artistic eye.

Tony and tina, great news. glad that part went well and you caught it early. I hope young contractor well replace your tiles that have to be removed.

while I understand learning and such, it's incumbent upon young guy to train himself before he takes money for jobs. Where did he learn ? Did he actually take the contractors test? Is he licensed? Perhaps he should actually take a course. Maybe old guy can talk to young guy about continuing his education via classroom or online. There are basic mistakes he made that are common sense. Before he touches anyones bathroom, he at least has to understand basic construction and how it relates to waterproofing. He would also need to educate himself on the tiling portion. How to install CBU, waterproofing said CBU's, proper thinset and mortar, and tiling techniques, etc. I'm just amazed that he would take on a job without knowing any of this, especially with all of the avail info online. Please give him the link to John Bridge Tile forum and tell him to peruse the info while not at work. There is a wealth of info on there for him.

Watch him closely....

wow. glad i read this post.

im sorry youre going through this tina, but you should def listen to all the great help here. my god i wish i had it.

my bathroom is now leaking downstairs and so is the upstairs bathroom. we have lived in it for only about 3 years but had no idea that this would happen as when i purchased it the owner was some random dude flipping homes.

its amazing to see how much work goes into just making sure a bathtub is waterproofed correctly

Beth, i have a question for you.

i saw you flip houses. i was saying my house got flipped before i saw it on the market and bought it. i was interested in the steps you put for waterproofing a bathtub above for tina.

so what else do you know about the proper steps to waterproof a tub or in my case and op fix a leaky tub and cieling ! eeeeeh did the contractor at our site also do like poor tina and mess up the foundation of the tub floor??

im saying why the hell would a tub and the ceiling be leaking water?!?!?

tina, 1200 isnt cheap...

Leaking tub showers must be gutted and start over. $1200 is abysmally cheap. Anyone who Would charge that is totally clueless and/or unlicensed and uninsured, and you should run way as fast as you can. The steps for a tub/shower to be waterproofed are only slightly different than a shower in that you don't have a pan to build and waterproof. You first start with a tub that has an integral tile flange, which the waterproofing overlaps.

Designhome, there are multiple ways to waterproof.

The way we usually do it in our neck of the woods is either, hot mop (shower only and it's done on the floor) and CBU (cement board or Hardiboard) or if you know who your tile setter is, he may choose to go old school and mud. wire lath and mortar. This is a preferred method w/a lot of tile guys because they can get a near perfect plumb/level working surface. With cement boards, you have to adjust your tiles to allow for bumps and unevenness of the walls.

As for what we did on the house we flipped, we used the cement board, taped/mortared the seams, and used Redgard for the waterproofing membrane.

In a tub/shower, what Sophie said about the flange is correct. you bring your CBU down to the flange so any water leakage would be caught by the tub and not go into the walls.

If the tub is leaking into the ceiling below, I'm guessing you have issues w/your drain/plumbing. have you cut into the ceiling to look?

Good ending.

no. i havent open the cieling of either floor, because both cielings have a peeling thing going on.

the house has 3 full bathrooms with them all built in same location just diff floors if makes sense.

the basement ceiling is peeling as a result of the middle or (first floor) tub leaking. and THAT levels ceiling is also peeling and looks spotty and damp because above that tub is the upstairs tub.


it sounds like a disaster and is. atm cant do too many fixing but soon i might. im afraid the tub might colapse while im showering through the floor. LOL

i posted bc i figure it has to be because of improper building.

i even caulked the tub a couple times past 3 years and caulking came off and water seeps everywhere.

it probably is a drain or some other issue but i feel like they rushed to flip the house and then boom tada problem!

almost feels like the hosts of hgtv flipping shows did my home..

& to the person who said 1200 is cheap, i wasnt implying 1200 is decent or expensive for a bathroom fix or remodel.

im very well aware that IS cheap for home renovation, home improvement whatever. im not clueless to costs of labor and equipment currently

i was simply agreeing 1200 is not a cheap amount to scrape up for some of us who arent well-to-do. yes compared to what it really costs for such a dilemma, it is very miniscule...

at the end of the day, i personally dont think you should sacrifice price for your home and your comfort in life

I'm not quite sure how you will achieve a minimal hit to your budget....since the only solution to the abysmal work is a complete tear out. Yikes.

He is tearing it out and doing it right. Following the guide and advice of the new contractor.

designhome, the longer you wait, the more expensive it will be. and it is a safety issue. that tub could come down. please don't wait> it might have something as simple as fixing a leaky pipe, or it could be a complete waterproofing issue. 3 years is a long time to have leak issues. you could have had someone paid off by now.

thanks beth, do you know if home insurance covers some or all of it? or would it be out of pocket?
i dont know what the issue really is so id have to have someone come look at it.
this is disapppointing to say the least.

Designhome, this is the last answer I'll give on this post since it's not yours. any other questions, please start a new one.

sometimes they do. I had a pipe leak under my slab and ruin my flooring. they covered it. If you call the insurance co and they send out their leak detector/inspector guy, it automatically counts as a filed claim. even if you don't use them to fix it. (if it's less than 1K to fix, I wouldn't file the claim as it counts against you and your rates could increase) . But from what you're saying, it sounds like the damage is way more extensive

Tony and Tina, keeps us posted to the progress and snap some pictures at each new interval.

"Did he actually take the contractors test? Is he licensed?"

Florida is one of the most heavily regulated states as far as licensing. Tile setters and cabinet and countertop installers are specifically exempted from Florida state contracting law.

yes, and tons of dilemmas coming in from that neck of the woods explains the downside of that. OP is in TN, so not sure what Fla has to do w/this. The contractor they hired doesn't even know enough not to tile over the toilet opening. I asked if he was licensed or studied in a school somewhere because of his elementary building errors.

Amazing ending to your dilemma -- for everyone concerned.

As of today, everything was torn out, 2x4s were added to raise the curb. Then roof paper, mesh, pan liner were laid and cement board put back up and properly screwed in with hardy screws 6 inches above. Then first pour. Thoughts? As a bonus, most of the tiles were able to be cleaned and salvaged. The new guy is suppose to come by and take a look but said by the pics it looks like he did what he was suppose to. Here are a couple of updated photos.

Hooray! Glad you are a patient person; if more people were all jobs would be better done and less mistakes made. Happy for you.

He placed the pan liner flat on the subfloor? And then placed mud on top of the liner in a slope to the drain? Because , if so, that is still wrong.

Make sure he mortars up the seems in the cement board on the wall.

besides what sophie said, did he bring up the plastic liner up the walls or just the curb? he removed the cement board and then put it back?

what did he do for waterproofing under that mud? just the flat liner??

"OP is in TN, so not sure what Fla has to do w/this."

The point is that consumers can't depend on the government to protect them from incompetence, as had been implied.

He pulled the cement boards, ran the liner up 6 inches I believe. Also, roof paper was laid on the subfloor as well as a mesh, I may have missed a step but then the liner ran I think 6 inches up and first pour. Also used or was suppose to use Kerdi tape for the seams etc. was also suppose to be painting on aqua defnse

Joseph, i get that. I was merely asking if he was licensed. Normally that involves taking a test. if he wasn't licensed, it explains a lot.

Tell me about it. My Florida license cost four thousand dollars and a hundred unpaid hours.

wow. and yet I hear so many horror stories regarding tiling jobs from that state. It's too bad it isn't regulated.

The liner does not go flat on the floor. The mud bed preslope is called a preslope because it goes down first. Then the waterproofing membrane goes over it. Then more mud, and then tile. You have a recipe for a saturated mud bed with stagnant disgusting water sitting there on the flat pan, and not draining. The mud bed is porous. So is tile and grout. And that is why the waterproofing goes as close to the surface as can be managed. It will dry out then.

The process was as follows. Roof paper,mesh 1st pour, liner, 2nd pour

Well, you have gone from a shower base that was a total failure to one that sounds like it is built badly. The rubber liner was installed incorrectly ( as pointed out above). Additionally, You said metal lath was placed followed by the rubber liner??? I hope that is not actually the case. The only function it would serve, as described, would be to puncture the liner above it. If he actually set the lath into an initial layer of concrete that was a preslope, that would be correct but I am sceptical from your description.

Maybe it's just your pictures but the concrete should be completely level all around the perimeter. It also looks like the concrete is doing some weird slope into the drain. Your initial description of the new base did not mention the first layer of concrete. Was that layer presloped to the drain, so that the liner was not placed flat?

Tina it would be a good idea to have him paint two coats of redguard onto the entire shower...walls, floor, and curb. Have him do two thick coats. Make sure he tapes the seams of the cement board with an approved mesh tape made for cement board and then "muds" the seams with thinset. Thanks for sharing your process and good luck!!

I forgot to mention Home Depot sells redguard...a one gallon bucket should be plenty.

Yes, he is using aqua defense, Similar product to redgard and also using the Kerdi tape for the seams.

From the guys over at John Bridge. (they do not recommend Redgard on the floor).

Tony and Tina, did your guy do it like this? Notice the pre-slope. that's what Sophie is talking about.

Mortarbed Shower Diagram -- Tile Council of America

We've had a lot of questions concerning the thickness of the mortar bed at the drain, or how much mud you should have above the membrane. The consensus around here is that the minimum height of mortar at the drain should be 1- 1/4 inches. More certainly doesn't hurt.

This means that if your pre-slope (the mortar beneath the membrane) is sloped consistently at 1/4 in. per foot of run, your final bed will be consistent in thickness from the drain to the wall. We need the minimum of one and one-quarter inches to offer enough mass to hold the bed together.

Further, I know of very few tile setters who install lath or other wire reinforcing in the final mortar bed as shown in the drawing. You don't need it.

You do need lath or other reinforcing in the pre-slope when going over a wood floor. For a concrete subfloor the lath is omitted. The pre-slope mortar is instead bonded to the concrete with thin set mortar applied to the slab just prior to dumping the mud.

-- J.B. 8-29-04

In my opinion having the liquid membrane installed over the pan would give you an extra layer of protection if the liner was not installed correctly by a newbie. A properly installed mud bed that has been presloped with a liner would not require it however I f it was my house and someone was learning on the job that's what I would do. There are a number of things that can go wrong with the liner if he doesn't know what he's doing. He could have done the corners wrong, nailed/screwed the liner too low, poked the liner with the mesh if he used it over the curb, cut in around the drain wrong. Some may say that it is creating a moisture sandwich having the pvc liner and the redgard on top but he did a preslope so that would direct any water toward the drain and give it a place to escape.

The liquid membrane also gives you some crack prevention to the top layer of mud.

Mud this, Redgurard that, whatever. Buy a Schluter preformed pan, easily customized with mud, Kerdi waterproof and done. Perfect slope and no leaks.

Well, screwed over again. Got home and looked at the actual work of the above pictures and am sad to say that I think as soon as I left he shortcut everything again. He has now been relieved of his duties and is not to come back unless it is to bring me a check. Expensive lesson learned. With all of this information and all of the Youtube videos that I've watched on this, I feel that I could've done a better job myself. Note: I may still have to. Anyone know the easiest way to get that bed out? Why can't people just be honest anymore??!!??

Tony

is this a new guy that you hired or the old guy that supposedly 'got some lessons' and redid it? I thought you brought in someone new.

what shortcuts are you talking about?

This was the old guy that apparently didn't take the advice of the guy I brought in. The guy that I brought in couldn't commit due to other jobs but offered to mentor and was available for him to call with any questions.

By shortcuts, I had to leave Thurs. morning and got back Friday afternoon. There were shortcuts on a couple of other things in the bathroom, no biggie, things I can fix even though I shouldn't have to but that shower HAS to be right. There are a couple of areas in it that I believe that water can get through to the walls, when I asked him about it he said he would mud over them and put the aqua guard on it...uhm no.

This afternoon I got to looking at it more and the pour is all the way surrounding the square drain (no room to spin it out) With that said, how are you suppose to line it up with the tile? Also, It looked really flat (no slope) so I did a water test and poured water around the drain. 1 guess where it went. (nowhere) I'm just disgusted, I tried to help the guy out and let him redeem his self and he got me again. My fault.

So, now I guess I'll have the new guy come in and help me decide if I can salvage it again.

Sadly this whole thing was like watching a train wreck slowly happen. We tried to point out things that are wrong with the progress, but it's obviously hard to convey all of these things via the internet, and to a homeowner that is not sure what to look for, all while dealing with a contractor doing the work.
At this stage, that base is totally screwed up again, and it needs to be completely removed down to the original floor. I would encourage you to get it done sooner than later because the concrete keeps on curing and getting harder. I suspect you will also need to remove all of the cement board on the walls since they have the old thinset on them which is going to interfere with setting tiles. Removing the shower base is going to damage the walls anyway, so I would just get rid of the walls while your at it.
Here is a link to a series of videos on YouTube by a pro tile setter. He has many videos that show detailed steps of a shower build. Some are long videos but if you want to understand the steps, they are worth viewing. Watch his video on installing a mud base and you will see how different it is from yours.
You need to start over...from scratch.

Oops. Here is the link. Or search for Sal Diblasi on YouTube.

I believe the above link takes you to part 1 of 3 of a Kerdi shower with a mud base. Watch them if you want some in depth insight.