If you MUST shop for paint @ Lowes, get a gallon of Zinsser's 123 and start over, forget the Kilz. There is NO primer in any paint, never was, never will be.

Thanks for the hand slap and advice...

Your most welcome, if you would have gone to BM with their color and picked up a gallon of Regal, you would not have had this problem.

Rule of thumb; for a color change, you totally need a primer.

Only if it is drastic.

I am some what of a contrarian. Where you are merely affecting a color change, with no other particular problems, the "paint and primer" paints are generally fine, especially those that are pure acrylic based, acrylic being very good for adhesion. With a paint and primer paint, the "prime coat" is the exact color of the finish coat, thus any light reflecting back out through the paint film is the correct shade to give better hide for the finish coat. Another advantage is not having to deal with two separate products, and perhaps having an oddball tinted primer left over.

Lori Sawaya,

I don't think you are being contrarian to me at all. Whereas I think it is never wrong to prime, it is often overkill. If the paint is covering in one coat and holding its sheen, why do two coats?

The present trend toward "paint and primer" paints is largely a relabeling tactic, rather than a major shift in paint technology. Quality acyrlic paints were always good primers as to adhesion and sealing. Whether they cover in one coat is determined by the color being covered and the color being applied. Paints loaded with organic colorants such as lamp black and raw umber cover well, clear pastel colors don't. Premium paints loaded with large, expensive amounts of titanium dioxide also cover better than lesser paints.

If I remember right, Pratt & Lambert was the first with the paint technology but failed to market it. I think is was their Accolade.

Eventually, other brands caught on to the technology and came up with the paint and primer in one marketing.

Have to say I insist on two coats of paint for best color resolution.

Lori knows more than many painters.

Obviously, if the transition is to a light, clear color over a stronger color, especially in another color family, multiple coats are called for. However, if one is painting one of those grays that are so popular at the moment, one coat will often be more than adequate, all things being equal. Unfortunately, one never knows until the painting begins. To this end, I strongly encourage buying a sample of the paint, not only to audition a large real world sample, but it will become immediately apparent if the color change is going to require two or more coats. Why start a project not knowing if you are really going to like the color and how many coats are going to be necessary?

Without the proper build of film thickness - which IMO is only achieved with two, even coats over a well-prepped surface - there's no way I can be sure the resultant color on the wall will be what I specified.

Lori, that may well be so when dealing with clear, transparent colors, but is absolutely not so with colors full of organic colorants applied at a full 4 mil thickness. Lots of white titanium pigment and organic colorants block light transfer. If light is not striking the old substrate and being reflected back out, the color representation will be true. It is somewhat why gray primers are, or were, often used under bright and dark colors such as yellow and red - gray does not reflect the light back out as does white. It also adds no coloration of its own.

I appreciate Brushwork's compliment but I know my limits. lol! :)

For example, I actually do have fair amount of DIY experience painting but I'm certainly no professional painter. There's no way I can make one coat work.

Even if you were right that a single coat of paint film is good enough, my application of said single coat is a lot less than perfect. It takes me two times around the room to hit every square inch and make sure there are no holidays. And, frankly, I'm not so sure pro painters can hit everything on the first pass either.

Most importantly, my policy of at least two coats no exceptions means I don't have to sweat the small stuff, like is every square inch covered properly or fart around with the bases, organic, non-organic, titanium whatevers, colorants, pigments, blah, blah, blah.

Two full coats. No exception. I charge more for one coat.

An interesting conversation for me to walk in on. I've hired a painter to paint our exterior -- brick and siding-- and his quote said two coats for everything. Sweet, I thought.

However, to him, using the sprayer on the siding is the same as two coats, and on the brick, having one guy roll and another guy follow behind him with a sprayer is also the same as two coats.

My brick does not look well painted. There are missed patches, and sides of bricks are still showing the original color.

He's full of baloney, right? I found him on Angies List and he had great reviews.... never again.

(What I'm trying to say is that I'd call his efforts one coat, both on siding and brick. I am quite frustrated and annoyed.)

I have said this before, but with Benjamin Moore at least, one coat actually looks better than two, in terms of sheen uniformity at least. When I apply the second coat of Benjamin Moore over itself, that is when it starts to look like crap. I'm actually considering switching to a one coat primer, one coat finish system, but I really don't want to clean double. Or, I could just switch to Behr.

No, spraying one coat and brushing/rolling one coat is considered applying two coats, but if he's spraying right after it's been rolled just to achieve full color coverage, then that is cheating, really. The first coat should be dry before applying the second for it to be an actual two coats.

purrus,

Two coats is TWO coats, not just someone working the paint twice. A full two coat paint job should result in about a 5 to 8 mil paint film thickness. That thickness in one coat would start to run and sag. There is another argument that exists for exterior paint that does not apply for interior paint: exterior paints are subjected to extremes of heat, humidity and sun. A thick, relatively elastic acrylic coating has a better chance of surviving intact over the years. The elasticity of acrylic was the quantum leap over oil house paints of old. Oils are brittle from the start and get more so with age. They can't move well with the seasonal movement of the house's wood surfaces. Further, acrylic paints breathe, oil paints do not breathe well, forming a moisture barrier on the exterior f the house - the worst place for it!

In my opinion, spraying alone is not adequate. Spraying does not get into blind corners, such as the bottom lip of clapboards, nor does back rolling. These areas have to be back brushed. Even when rolling the siding, I always back brush the entire area. Spraying alone also does not get into the nicks and crannies of porous brick. I normally use a roller to get the paint up on the brick and then use the brush to force it into all areas.

@Paintguy22 what product from BenM are you talking about? I will go out of my way to get Aura matte because of the sublimely even velvety final finish.

He's using Sherwin Williams (Duron I think) and uses that to augment his argument that it is all just fine, and it really is two coats. But he was covering ancient aluminum siding that was in good shape in that it was intact, but hadn't been painted for at least 50 years.

At least he had the cheapest quote, by a long shot. But, I am going to have to write an honest review. Professional, but factual.

To him, the sprayer is so good that a single sprayer coat counts as two coats of paint. When I got his quote, it (of course!) did not occur to me to ask what two coats means to him or how he defines two coats. I mean, who would? I am so tired of paying for crappy work just to get these people off my property. Same thing last year with a bathroom guy.

He is giving you a song and dance BS story. Two coats IS two coats resulting in twice the film thickness. No one in the coatings industry would buy his argument. You can certainly call The Sherwin Williams customer service line and confirm this.

That is a great idea!

quote "? I found him on Angies List and he had great reviews.... " LOL

To him, the sprayer is so good that a single sprayer coat counts as two coats of paint.

Wonder where he got that magical sprayer.

Lori, I'm using Regal eggshell mostly. I will not use Regal Matte and will insist on Aura Matte if the customer insists on washable flat, but I can't get it to look perfect on the high walls with critical light.

Years ago I used to use a lot of BM's Aqua-Velvet Eggshell. The instructions clearly said to wait 8 hours to re-coat. If you did not, the result would be very streaky. If you waited, it held it's sheen very well. If all else fails, follow the directions!

Well, Aqua Velvet is gone, sadly. The new Regal is a new animal entirely, but we are starting to notice the same situation with all the acrylic paints. I think I just notice it primarily with BM because that is what I use the most. You used to be able to paint a room with 2 coats and when you applied the second coat, you would use significantly less paint than you used on the first coat. Now, you use as much if not more on the second coat. What this says to me is that the sealing properties of the paint has vanished. Regal Select is more durable than Aqua Velvet was for sure, but it doesn't seal the surface as well. This is odd since sealing and durability go hand in hand, but I guess not anymore.

I have been away from contracting for a dozen years now, when I was primarily a Ben Moore user. I am no longer directly using the competitor's products, only those which I sell and use in my own home.