I've been growing in bark based potting soils for many years and I have never witnessed the degradation of the bark that you describe. Even skipping repotting for several seasons, my barky soil mix has held up very well. One of the reasons it is so highly recommended is that it IS very durable and not highly prone to a rapid breakdown.

You of course can plant in anything you like but I am not prepared to give up my bark based soil mix for anything you can buy in a bag or any peat or coir based mix.

I'm assuming you are talking about container growing. My crappy soil here seems to be great for just about everything including citrus. The only bark is from mulch spread over the root zone in a thick layer.

When you repot a plant or tree on time, nothing turns into mush.

It only turns into mush, when you don't know the proportion of the root ball and the size of the container/ amount of soil.

Two years ago I planted a Cara in a big (22") pot. I added some shredded cedar at the bottom and, really no clue what I was thinking at the time. The tree died last winter. When I took it out to reuse the planter, there was indeed something like almost liquid mud in the bottom and the mulch was almost gone and just some of the biggest pieces left. I don't know if I really can contribute that to the high nitrogen (which they did not get as my trees where terribly neglected and did not get any nitrogen at all and a miracle that not more died) I believe that trees just need to be re potted regularly to replenish the soil. Also just because 5-1-1 is used or any other ration for that matter, does not mean we can let water sit in the bottom or water twice a day. Packing potting soil not too tight and watching the moisture around the tree and nutrition is more important then the mixture. At least what I believe with my very limited knowledge ;)

In orchids, you can grow many of them in any media you please, as long as you understand the issues of drying, drainage, fertilization (less important), weather conditions.

I would imagine much of the same is true for citrus (just my two cents).

It is my believe that very small bark that you find in package soils does not last with high nitro use. A lot of growers tend to fertilize their tree's on the heavy side. I push young tree's myself to get them to grow big quick. Once the tree is big enough for a big pot i am more careful with my medium because it has to last at least 3 years. It is what i do and i don't have a problem from the looks of my tree's. Left-over garden soils from big box stores in the fall is my base ingredient. I experiment a lot with growing fruittree's over the years and have collected a lot knowledge. I would't change a thing.

If growing anything in a container, nothing is more important than the soil mix. It is surprising how very few container gardeners realize this fact. It influences both watering and fertilization, which can be adjusted for both the plant and the growing conditions and are always applied. Once planted, you can't change the soil mix until it comes time to repot.

FWIW, a layer of some different material at the base of the container will alter drainage - it slows it down - and can cause the perched water table to rise. Once this material is part of the PWT, if it something organic like bark, It will degrade and become mushy.....that is inevitable. Just soak bark in water for a few months and see what happens. But if that same material is uniformly incorporated into the mix and the mix itself is durable and of a reasonable particle size with plenty of pore spaces, then the PWT will remain low and there will be no soggy, mushy bottom substrate.

If I remember correctly, Al Talpa, who came up with the 511 mix, said that he uses the 511 mix for plants, such as annuals, that will not be in the mix for more than a year or two and uses the gritty mix for more long term plantings.

Vladimir is correct........That's exactly what I do too.

None of my plants have ever done good in backyard dirt nor that of most people I now of and I have been a part of these forums for years.

All of my plants including Citrus Trees have thrived in these 5.1.1 and gritty mixes containing bark more while all my plantings have either held on or rapidly declined in anything other than a good quality mix too such as Pro mix and the older versions of the heavy weight Fafard mixes containing mostly of pine bark. Any kind of mix that consists of mostly fine materials such as backyard dirt or peat will compact and suffocate the roots at a much faster rate. Lichen in pine bark is what keeps the bark from decomposing at a much slower rate.

I my observations, the reason why a majority of people come here in the first place is because of failure of most of their plantings including Citrus Trees in mixes that do not allow good oxygen exchange and encourage root rot..

Besides, any kind of mix that takes longer than a week to dry out is just a waste of time for my plants, especially in winter when it can even take longer...

A good rule of thumb with Citrus Trees, if your mix takes longer than a week to allow you to water again, it's time to exchange it for a fresh mix.

I would like to have some of my trees a bit longer in their pot. Now wondering what is the gritty mix? We have to mix that too? Or ready in bags to buy?

"Or ready in bags to buy?"

Oh, don't we all wish!! Unfortunately, that is also a homemade mix but pretty darn simple. It is a 1-1-1 mix: one part composted bark fines, 1 part perlite, granite grit or cherry stone and one part Turface or calcined clay. Ideal for cacti, succulents and other very fast drainage requiring, drought tolerant plants.

I personally prefer the 5-1-1 (or a slightly amended form) for the majority of my containerized plants to reduce watering requirements. I find it holds up very well for at least 3 growing seasons, sometimes longer. It just doesn't require daily (or more often!) watering in summer. But then most of my containers are pretty good sized - 5G or larger. Smaller may also require more frequent attention.

I had not thought to substitute perlite for the grit. That would make it much lighter. I have a few trees in gritty and they are fine, but I just can't have such a heavy mix in large containers. I can barely move them with 5-1-1. Anyone else used perlite in gritty mix?

Laura what do you use for the gritty mix? And this is not the screened pine bark we use for the 5-1-1 but something else?

Here is the gritty mix recipe:

1 Part uncomposted pine or fir bark

o Screened through ½” then

o Through 1/8” to remove fines

1 Part Turface MVP

o Screened through window screen

1 Part Gran-I-Grit (grower size) or #2 cherrystone

Osmocote 0.5 scoops/gal of gritty mix - this is optional

Thank you Vladimir. Bookmarked it. I wish we could have a file section so it could be found easy for every new person

Vladimir, Al Talpa did not invent the 5-1-1 mix. Commercial nurseries have been using 5-1-1 for a long time. The top container mix in any nursery that I ever been associated with used the 5-1-1 mix --- 5 parts composted bark, 1 part peat, 1 part coarse sand. You can see this exact formulation in Dr. Carl E. Whitacomb Ph.D book, "Plant Production In Containers 11". I know Al Talpa has the book mentioned above, he might even have seen the formula in that book, I don't know.

I wondering if I could use chick grit? or coarse sand? instead of turface perlite?

Sounds like a heavy weight mix.

I must have done it wrong then. I used 1 part peat moss, 1 part chicken grit, 1 part turface.

Al's been around a long time :-)) I've known him on these forums for at least 20 years and he has been active in the bonsai world for even longer that that! He's been using both of those mixes for a long as I've known him (and me as well!!). And that's a few years before Whitcomb published his treatise so maybe things are the other way around?? Al may not have "invented" a bark based planting mix but the 5-1-1 IS his particular formulation that you are unlikely to encounter in exact detail elsewhere. It has been written up in scores of publications and is very well known in the professional horticultural community. I know professional growers and nurserypeople that refer to "Al's mix".

Susanne, the turface is essential to the gritty mix and cannot be subbed out except with some similar calcined clay product. And sand just doesn't work, period. It is only the remaining granite grit/cherry stone/perlite/pumice component you can play around with (btw, cherry stone is chicken grit - just a particular grade/size). And the proportions, to some degree.

Silica, I foolishly assumed Al invented it because his name is so often connected with it. I stand corrected.

Susanne, you have to use Turface or calcined clay, not chick grit or sand, because Turface & calcined clay absorb and hold water while grit and sand do not.

Thank you Vladimir. Makes sense.

I just searched a bit through the internet and found somebody recommended Napa floor dry. It is made out of Diatomaceous Earth and supposed to work like pumice/perlite. Since it is used to absorb oil, I assume it hold fluid well. I found a 24qt for about $9. I paid $33 for the perlite. Would there be a reason not to use it?

gardengal I am not sure when Dr. Whitcomb first wrote the book, but his book was first revised in 1988, and again in 2003.

I have never used Perlite in the gritty mix but others on the Container forum have.

Steve, that is what I have found as well this summer when I have potted up my trees. The 5-1-1 is darker, but fully intact. Therefore, this year (at least) I have just kept the root ball in place and added more 5-1-1 to fill in the areas of the larger pot. I suspect next year I will need to root prune some of my trees at the rate they are growing.

Oh, and what I have done is when I pot up, any 5-1-1 that fall off, I put back in the tub with the new mix and stir. No reason to waste perfectly good mix.

How much lime do you all put in your mix? Are you checking PH of the soil to adjust?

Susanne, 1 Tb garden lime/gal 511 mix. No checking of pH necessary.

My water's ph is 7.8. I don't need to add any lime. Many of you will not either for the same reason.

6b Steve