If you provide the name of the closet city then I could look up the outdoor winter and summer design temperatures.

Thanks Mike.

I think the winter design temperature is 2 and the summer design temperature is 87. Could be wrong here though.

I am kinda close to Syracuse NY.

My last house had an air source heat pump. I believe it was a Heil. I'm in zone5B/6A, about an hour north of Kansas City.

I practically froze to death. That thing ran all. the. time.

I would look at dual fuel system.....2 stage VS propane fuel furnace paired with high eff heat pump...

if you want recommendations, let me know.

IMO

Tigerdunes - yes, recommendations are greatly appreciated!

Littlebug - Yikes, so no secondary heating source? Do you feel the heat pump was sufficient heat above a certain outdoor temperature? If so, what temp?

I lived in Rochester for 5 years with a heatpump from the natural gas moratorium period (late 1970's). So I know electric heat can get pretty expensive. Nevertheless, dual fuel systems are also quite expensive - I'd find out what the payback of the additional furnace (and propane) is going to be over straight resistance backup and make your decision based on this. Modern heatpumps are much more efficient than back in my day and may actually serve your needs.

The document I have shows the Syracuse airport to have a winter design temperature of 2F degrees, and a summer temperature of 85F. If you installed a heat pump it would have to be sized for the cooling load.

There are inverter type heat pumps like the Carrier Greenspeed which can work well down into the single digits. But you will still need a back up heat source. A 95%+ efficiency gas furnace modified for use with propane would be a good option. You would then be in a position to convert to natural gas if were to be made available in your neighborhood in the future. The propane could also be used for cooking if you like a gas stove, along with the clothes dryer, and domestic hot water.

Syracuse gets a lot of snow so it would make sense to me the condenser should be installed on an elevated platform so it does not become buried in a blizzard. If the house has a basement then that is the best place to install the furnace. If it does not, then give up some floor space for a utility closet. If it were my house I would not install any HVAC equipment in the attic.

Thanks Mike! Your suggestions are very similar to my initial thoughts - Heat pump plus back up heat source. It will be many many years before we see natural gas at our location so propane or wood are our viable options, IMO.

It seems realistic that the heat pump will handle all our cooling needs but I am curious about how well they work in cold temperatures in real world situations. How often is the secondary heat source needed, for example?

Do a search on this forum for Carrier Greenspeed. There have been posters who have reported very good performance at low temperatures. You could also try contracting some of the posters to get more information about their experiences.

"You can call for example to Husky Heat Pumps LTD and ask them your question."

Well, they are located in the UK so I don't think they'll be much help for Syracuse, NY.

Is the NYSERDA program still operating in NYS? Take a look if it is and see if applies to new construction. IIRC is is free for existing homes. That is a way to have a local energy rater can advise you. See if you can find someone that does not sell stuff meaning heat pumps, furnaces and insulation. If you can, they will be less biased. If NYSERDA is no go, find an energy rater anyway, BPI or Resnet.

An energy rater can help you find the low-hanging fruit for energy savings. Most important, they can set benchmarks for good construction and see that they are met. For example, they'll test ducts and the house envelope for leakage. With the data, you can hold your contractors' feet to the fire wrt meeting the standards that were set. They'll make sure that insulation is installed properly, and no careless thermal bridges are built in. (I doubt that spray foam is a good fit for you, but if you use it, it is tricky to get right and a pro should check on the installers to make sure they get it mixed and sprayed right.) They can check to be sure that heating and cooling details are right and according to design. it will be very much worth your money paid to this consultant.

With propane and electric your only energy sources, your biggest bang for the buck here is certainly going to be in high levels of insulation, great windows and great air sealing. There is no other way to approach it. If you do enough of that, your heat and cool sources approach irrelevant. Some lagniappe that comes with that approach is that if your power goes out, it takes a long, long time for your pipes to freeze if the power goes out, maybe never if you are coupled to your basement and the earth rather than insulated from it. It also takes a relatively small genset to keep you warm. Renewable energy sources could play in as well.

Just for fun, once, I checked the heating degree days in some spots from near Syracuse on the Allegheny Plateau to Maine. IIRC, I did not see much change until I got well into Maine. Are you on the Fly Creek side of Syracuse?

ionized_gw - Sorry for the delayed reply. I agree, an independent consultant could offer a great non-biased assessment of the build.

Curious why you say "I doubt that spray foam is a good fit for you"?

Not quite sure where Fly Creek is. We are more towards the Ithaca area.

Fly Creek is over near Cooperstown. There is a guy over there that impressed me favorably when he did a NYSERDA check on a home for me in Chenango County. I thought he was too far to support continued boiler support at that distance. (You understand, the cold, the hills with ice and snow, for reasonable response time, you want someone close for a breakdown.) You may be even further. Even if you are as far east as Whitney Point, Marathon, Cincinatus,... you got a whole lot more hills to contend with to get out of the Chenango valley. It is even far to go for a summer build consult/supervision/check.

Honestly, I don't remember why I commented that way about spray foam that way. Maybe expense and the fussiness of installation. If you get an energy rater that does not do insulation, they might be objective about insulation recommendations.

I am wondering how much heat pump expertise there is in the area. If there is not much action, you will have to drive this and that could be difficult. Most of the outlying homes are, a you probably know, historically, fuel oil or propane heat and I think more of the former. There is very little central air. I know that If I had hydronic heat in and established home I'd seriously consider adding cooling , probably mini splits, and keeping the hydronic. For new construction, I really don't know.

Here is a study, somewhat dated, that might interest you. Even though it might not be directly applicable, you might find guidance. There is lots of good info at Buildingscience.com. Another report that discusses several small homes heated with MSHP, I can't find right now. Check their web site. One thing for sure is that for an efficient system you obviously have to take into account the building. What is not obvious is that you can benefit from taking the lifestyle of the inhabitants into account. If you are gone from the house a lot, setbacks may make sense. If you like low night temperatures for sleeping, you want setbacks and recovery capacity. If not, smaller equipment may suffice. One thing for sure is with your choice of fuels, insulation and sealing are going to be your best friends. If you get enough of that, your heating and cooling appliances really might not make that much difference if you work the numbers.

Long-Term Monitoring of

Mini-Split Ductless Heat

Pumps in the Northeast

Building America Report - 1407

December 2014

Kohta Ueno and Honorata Loomis

Thanks ionized_gw. We are about 2.5 hours from Cooperstown - not a
great drive in the winter for sure. Probably too far in decent weather
too.

My initial impression is that heat pumps are becoming more common in
my area, especially for homes that do not have access to natural gas.
Quite a few of us fall into that category due to rural locations and/or
natural gas moratoriums. Geothermal seems to be more popular than air to
air. I believe this is due to the cold climate but it seems that the
lower cost and recent advancements in air to air heat pumps will change
that. Geothermal is just too expensive for us.

Many of the older homes are replacing oil furnaces, as you mentioned.
Central air isn't common but seems that a few homes are adding it and
newer higher end custom homes certainly have it. Central air is
important to us due medical conditions.

Love the feel of hydronic heat but if we are already installing duct work for central air, it seems redundant and expensive to do hydronic too. We will be looking to mini splits for a finished area above the garage that contains two bedrooms.

I'll take a look at the study you referenced.

Mitsubishi's Flash Technology is impressive as well. Microclimates are everything in the Finger Lakes. At the north end, undoubtably due to the added effect of Lake Ontario, and maybe Onondaga Lake, the zone 6 areas are pretty wide. At the Southern ends, by contrast, you can't get far from the lakes without being in zone 5. Even that is painting with too broad a brush. If you can throw a rock and it lands among wine grapes, you are probably in zone 6. Otherwise, it is anyone's guess sans real data.

Thanks Barrybud! I'll check out the link you provided.

ionized_gw - We are definitely zone 6. "If you can throw a rock and it lands among wine grapes, you are probably in zone 6." With a really good arm, we could knock some grapes off their vines. :)

OK, but what I mean by wine grapes is Vitis vinifera. They have to be vinifera, not Vitis labrusca. Labrusca are probably not as sure an indicator. Hybrids, I don't know :-)

Syracuse is in zone 5b, not zone 6.......

http://files.campus.edublogs.org/blogs.cornell.edu/dist/9/92/files/2012/01/ny_hardiness_zone_mapx3300-23gw8tb.jpg

That’s true summersrhythm but I am south of Syracuse and in zone 6.

The initial investment into geothermal is a killer, but it will cut a heck of a lot of costs right away. I would choose $600 versus $1900 annually any day. We live in zone 7, and on Long Island to boot. Geothermal has become a real contender to make our future bills liveable.

..,,,,,but it costs a lot of cows or a car to purchase it. What did you use for heating before? You only have 4 months of winter in your zone, $1900 is a lot. You must have a huge house with a lot of windows that didn't close tight.....,,

And maintenance/repairs after the first few years cost even more cows!

Ground source heat pumps used to be a better alternative than they are now. The attacks are from two sources. First, generous federal subsidies went away. Second, Air source heat pumps improved greatly. Ground source also has the disadvantage of poorer scale in manufacturing. It never reached nearly the prevalence of air sourced heat pumps. It still may make sense to consider it in some areas, especially if there is suitable body of water nearby. If ground loops don't have to be sunk, there is a big cost savings.

It is a larger home, but it was super affordable for the price and okay neighborhood. The house we're buying was recently flipped. We're going to add a sink to the downstairs, so we'll be better able to check the insulation then. The home currently only has 1 zone, which we're going to remedy ASAP. It's 500 ft away from gas, but we're not knocking door-to-door to ask people to hook up. Neither my husband or I feel comfortable doing that. (We're not that outgoing...) Plus, it would cost a lot to convert to gas too. If we're going to update the system anyway, why not go geothermal?

Edit: Long Island has become too difficult for many people to live there. The taxes alone are terrible. That's why a lot of people have decided to move south to the Carolinas. It is very hard to find a decently-priced home with low taxes. It's even harder for people to legally rent. That's why many people choose to create illegal apartments to help pay their taxes and/or mortgages. ;)

I hear you, property taxes are high in NY state. One of my next street neighbors has to sell her house next summer, the property tax on her 2600 sq ft house is over $8,000.....your area might be even higher than that. Gas is the cheapest way to go, only 500' away!?! I'd knock on everyone's doors morning and night until I get the gas. :-)

You should add up all the costs to install a gas furnace and a geothermal system. My guess is it would be cheaper to bring in a gas line 500 feet then installing a geothermal system from scratch. Electricity costs are very high on Long Island. I think a 95%+ efficiency furnace could be about the same as a geothermal system. In the summer the geothermal system would win out in terms of cost.

The other thing to consider is once the gas line is in the house, you can then covert your stove, clothes dryer, and hot water heater to gas. This would be additional monthly savings versus electric appliance. You don't have to do change all your appliances immediately. Just have the gas pipe set up so it can be easily tapped in the future.

I would not feel comfortable knocking on people's door either. How about making a flyer and placing in people's mailboxes? You may get some responses. At the very least you may make some new friends.

Niabiaxxmoi, Upkeep on a ground-source heat pump is going to
be a lot higher than on a gas furnace/air-air AC combo. A furnace has much
lower complexity and higher economies of scale of manufacture. Note that zoning
is not something that will save much money in a well insulated and sealed home
compared to a poorer structure.

I am going to disagree on some points. It is better to knock on doors than place
flyers; ask any professional community organizer. Best to do both door to door and flyers. Just be sure to have a woman in the mix for
door-knocking. Other women are much more
apt to open up for a woman than a man if they are alone. Stay away from the mailboxes. Some mean-spirited person may rat you out to
the Postal Dept. No, they won’t send you
to Gitmo, but the max fine is the postage that you’d use to mail the flyers.

Take into account the difficulty of an added flue pipe for
an added gas water heater when counting your chickens. It should not be a problem, but on rare
properties, it can be.

OFF TOPIC WARNING:

This may be splitting hairs in some views, but New York
State does not have property tax. All
property tax is local and it is not particularly high in New York State (I.e.
the real New York.) National average property
is about 1.3%. There are lots to quibble with in these numbers since there are
so many exemptions and technical differences.
According to my information, New York City and fellow travelers in the
far Southeast (the other New York) has a very low property tax expressed on a %
basis. That is part of the reason they must constantly siphon off revenue from
the rest of the state to support themselves. They have a tiered system for
residential properties. Adjusting for
other vagaries, the rate varies from 0.6% in Brooklyn to 0.8% in NYC. I believe that is for homes with 1-3
families. If there are 4 or more
residences in a building, the rate skyrockets.
By contrast, in Monroe County, on the North coast of New York, the
effective tax rate is more like 3%. In
Rochester, more than half the property tax goes to public schools. Of course the assessed value of the property
plays heavily into the actual dollar amount that you pay.

Thanks everyone for the input! It has given me a lot of food for thought. Honestly, I think I'm just going to ask around to get estimates. I had wanted to be green, but I just want to be able to afford my bills. If it comes to knocking door-to-door, I guess I'll do it even though I am not the most socially blessed.

I can't speak for other parts of the state, but the taxes in Suffolk County on Long Island are astronomical. The lowest taxes for an area that isn't crime or drug-ridden is $7k. That being said, my taxes upon buying the house would be $10k before STAR. For a 5 bedroom single family home with two baths and two sets of laundry machines under $400k on Long Island, that is amazing. The district isn't the best, but it's not bad either.

Knock on the doors, go after the gas! :-) I wish our country property is near the gas. Is there a gas map I can check? I know 3 miles away a lake front community has gas.......my neighbor has a gas well, about 5-6 acres away. Would it be cheaper to have a gas well than paying for a heat pump in the countryside? Day dreaming?