My general belief, if you don't believe that they are worth the advertised price, then I'd look at another line that fits your budget. I wouldn't want to purchase cabinets that I thought were inflated in price. And I wouldn't want to work with a vendor that wasn't charging a fair price. If they cut the price, what are they cutting out of the package?

You are asking a question that is probably impossible for people to answer. I doubt any two companies have the same markeup.

I don't know much about RTA cabinets so I don't know if you would be buying accessories from them. But instead of beating them up on price you might have better success asking them to include some freebies or free upgrades (like better hardware). I don't know what the markup is on the actual cabinets but I am pretty sure the markup is beefy on accessories and some upgrades.

Every price is inflated. And there is almost nothing we ever pay for that is truly "worth it". Cabinets are seriously inflated, though RTA might be less so naturally, as all the work that goes into assembly is not there.

I was watching your thread, as I too am wondering about negotiations going into my reno. I have read a few threads about this. There are some, like jbs, that don't believe in the art of negotiation. And there are many others who wouldn't dream of not asking. Some will walk if they don't get one, some will still consider the product, some will look around but still keep everything on the table. That's an individual call and depends on lots of variables.

The one piece of advice I've read more than once or twice is this, after you have been given the bid, look them in the eye, don't flinch or stammer, and simply ask, "Is this the best you can do?" Then don't say anything else. Many people say it will instantly get a lower price (or the consideration of one).

Interestingly, in many other countries, vendors are actually insulted if you don't negotiate. ;)

Hope this helps!

"Cabinets are seriously inflated,..."

Most dealers around here work at about the same profit margin as Orange box. I'm slightly lower.

"I am pretty sure the markup is beefy on accessories and some upgrades."

From the cabinet company they are the same as cabinets. If they are aftermarket and we are equal or close to internet pricing (what I use) the markup is lower.

I don't know anyone who sells RTA cabinets so don't know if that is consistent with cabinet dealers. 25K worth of RTA's has to be a lot of cabinets, 70% or more of jobs I do are that or less unless in my highest end brand.

We are a custom RTA cabinet supplier and I can tell you, because I believe in transparency, that we give our contractors a 5-10% discount giving them the ability to make a decent profit by including their own small mark-up.

I can also tell you that small custom cabinet shops are a dying breed. Everything is highly competitive in this field, it's highly technical, and not many customers have budgets to support them. What you have left is more and more really big shops and a few smaller places. You have to love making cabinets to be in this industry!

That being said, it's fair to shop around. But due to the competitive nature of the industry, you will generally get what you pay for. Do your homework (like you are), ask questions (like you are), and when you find good professionals that are rated well - trust them!

If you feel that your cost is too much, then perhaps you would be willing to cut out some features to achieve your number? Negotiation is a two way street. Unless you are willing to give up something, don't expect the price to change on a fairly priced product.

No one operates on huge margins for cabinetry.

Agree with Cook's Kitchen, Scherrs and Mark James. Most kitchen and bath dealers do not have huge margins. Like Mark, we also operated on margins similar to box stores, yet....the public still assumes we must be more expensive.

I very rarely bargain with a client on my prices but here is some advice: I would not recommend you say , "is this the best you can do?" (blank stare). That, to me, has always been an arrogant way to ask and raises flags for me to want you as a client. For me personally, it's much better to ask politely for a small percentage off and not use a credit card. For instance, "If I pay with a check, will you give me 1% or 2% off?" or "Can you discount an accessory or upgrade for me?" I'm ready to sign today!

Those are offers more likely for a dealer to consider.

There is a significant markup and everything is negotiable with the right supplier. You need to be pricing from more than one source for the same thing to find the right person. If you have a complete list of the product specs with the retail list price you can figure the price you are comfortable with. You can submit the list and ask the supplier if he can work with you in this price range to get a deal done. Good luck.

It sounds like its too late, but did you look at local cabinet makers? I'm talking about someone working out of his garage or workshop. We remodeled a house in San Antonio and one in Bandera, TX and found local cabinet makers to be slightly less expensive for a much sturdier cabinet. Also they were open to any idea under the sun for customization.

The Kitchen Place, I'm curious. Why do you find someone asking if that's the best you can do offensive? Because in the end, if they pay cash and you take a small percentage off, the first price you gave them wasn't the best you could do. Right? So I don't get why you find that question offensive... *scratches head*

And apparently a lot of retailers don't find it offensive, because as I said in my earlier post, I have been searching this forum on this very question the OP started, and there's a lot of people out there asking, and getting results.

There are some items where negotiation is generally expected such as with real estate and autos (outside of very high demand situations). Cabinets are not one of these things. You might get a little wiggle room under the right circumstances but my understanding is 5% or so discount in fairly typical for large volume regular customers (i.e. contractors) but as a regular consumer I wouldn't expect much.

Credit card companies charge 3-4% to process transactions. Giving a discount for cash nets the business the same amount on the bottom line. It's not really a discount. Most customers prefer to not receive this discounted price in order to have the protection of a credit card.

Sorry, but it's highly offensive the way it was worded. I'd fire you on the spot if I already hadn't from all of the other red flags. Some people earn a surcharge, not a discount.

If you bring in Repeat Business, with an already notated design list with everything already properly listed as to the 1147 different options, and you might get 5% tops. But that is the design and repeat business discount.

Just because someone is doing a one off project doesn't earn anything. They usually take up more time and resources. Especially for a business that doesn't offer the service of design. If you don't have an actual, completely specified orderable design to be quoted by someone, then you are as as much work as any other Jamoke wandering up through the electrons.

I'd fire you on the spot if I already hadn't from all of the other red flags.

Are you speaking to me personally?

Some comical replies and some great replie and ruthless replies. I've owned and run my own business for years providing a service and we have no issues negotiating. If you don't ask, you don't get.

I am bothered by "Is that the best you can do?" There's nothing the matter with negotiating, but I don't like the tone of negotiating like this.

It implies by the way that it is said that there is some essential dishonesty or padding in the pricing. What's the right answer to something like this? Yes? No? I don't think there is an answer that's really going to satisfy a client that says something like this. It also implies that the person thinks they are not an ordinary client and deserve to get a better price than the average person that walks in. It's arrogant.

I get estimates on things from more than one place if I can, and if I don't care for their pricing, I look elsewhere. Sometimes I don't get multiple estimates. I can't. If I don't like the pricing I either realign my project, or my expectations or I don't do it.

Sometimes I think that people who work within the relative security of a corporate, salaried environment have no clue as to what it's like to work on commission or production or by the project. Do you rebate your employer part of your salary if you have a bad day? If you make single mistake?

$25k does seem high for RTA unless it's a big kitchen. I did RTA but didn't negotiate even though I'm a big bargainer.

What I did was to choose the company I wanted then I price shopped. I went with the best price and they offered me a discount for paying cash/check vs credit card because of the credit card surcharge.

I did find that the price difference between resellers was up to 20%. To keep from taking up the resellers time, I simply picked a few representative pieces (oven cabinet etc) and got a quote on those. It gave me a good enough idea of their pricing and competitiveness.

For those that find the question offensive, I think you're possibly just being a tad bit sensitive.

And for the record, I didn't come up with this question, nor have I asked it of anyone. It was found on this forum by others who have asked it, and found it profitable.

What's the right answer to something like this? Yes? No? I don't think there is an answer that's really going to satisfy a client that says something like this.

Sure there is. If it IS the best you can do, you say yes it is. Their call on what they do. If it's not, you say, let me go talk to my manager, and then come back with your "best price". It's not that difficult. People do it all the time...

You take that I'm entitled to special treatment attitude in most places, and one of two things is gonna happen. You're not gonna get the time of day. They fire you on the front end. Life's too short to deal with 6 months of that. Or, someone will be sugar sweet, for a big price increase. People that work for themselves make their own decisions about how much crap they have to take, and what dollar figure of reimbursement makes misery worthwhile. I'm retired, so don't take ANY of it anymore.

And I reiterate the price is for kitchen, 3.5 baths and laundry room.

For those that find the question offensive, I think you're possibly just being a tad bit sensitive

I don't think it's offensive, I think it's an insensitive or possibly arrogant way of dealing with someone when there are better ways to negotiate.

And I've found...that people who talk to others like this and think it's okay--can be awfully sensitive themselves when someone talks to them the same way.

25K is about what you'd pay for a low end assembled line for a large kitchen and that many baths. You have a good price, but you may shoot yourself in the foot by not jumping on it and by insulting the seller.

Or by not factoring in the actual labor for assembly and installation which should be around 10-15K if you have someone with a remote clue. Or by not measuring only after the drywall goes up and paying a real KD for a design that actually physically works.

There's a zillion ways to screw up RTA, and most of them are caused by trying to be penny wise and pound foolish and not understanding that you aren't really saving that much unless you just want a hobby yourself.

It never occurred to me to "negotiate" with my kitchen people. If I had paid with a credit card, they would have charged me 1% more and I didn't. They gave me SO much of their time that I felt they certainly should be paid for that somehow. An antique shop or a car dealership? I negotiate! Perhaps I'm stupid but I can't imagine my kitchen place would have ever bargained with me. They did allow me to hire my own people for some things if I could get it for less, and also order my own hardware and a few other things.

TKP, thanks for your thoughtful, in depth answer. It sounds like you know how to treat people, and that in turn has treated you well. ;) I will remember what you have said as I go forth on my reno. Thank you. :)

The other thing to remember as well is where you are shopping... I have worked in larger firms which are priced higher - expecting there to be some haggling, discounts for cash, etc... but smaller shops don't have that luxury - they need to be competitive with everyone including the big box and that means lower margin - not much room to maneuver, if any...

The best suggestion I can make to folks is to be honest with your budget and let us know! I have many people who don't really want to tell me what they want to spend so we start putting things together and they want to add and add and add, then when I give them the price I get the "is this the best you can do? " question "because this is over my budget". I press people for budgets all the time before I start working so I know what I can show them... and may times they still don't want to tell you...

Its exhausting and wastes everyone's time....

The other thing I get is the "pressure purchase" - the person who has me work up a plan and pricing and then proceeds to tell me they had the same plan done at another place and it was $$$$ less but they offer me no "proof". So I am just supposed to take your word for it that we are pricing out the exact same thing with the exact same construction and quality... pretty pictures don't show what is inside cabinets or whether the ends are flush finished or exactly what molding are used etc. These things will change the prices by hundreds and thousands of $$. Even the door style - a shaker door 2" stiles and rails with a veneered center panel will be less expensive than one with a solid wood reversed raised center panel but the pretty pictures will look exactly the same.

It is tough on both sides of the fence! That is why it is so important to work with someone you trust and truly has your best interests in mind.

Good luck on your project!

And I reiterate the price is for kitchen, 3.5 baths and laundry room.

You can try to negotiate; however, this thread shows that people will react to your attempts in a variety of ways -- not all of them positive.

You can lower your cabinet bill in a number of ways that don't include negotiating:

- Reduce the number of cabinets in your kitchen; pantry storage is cheaper than lots of cabinets.

- Check Craigslist for gently used vanities for the bathrooms and cabinets for the kitchen; given that those rooms require less cabinetry, it'd be easier to get a single vanity ... and most of us just don't care as much about those rooms.

- If you're planning fancy pull-outs, etc., consider cutting back on those.

- If you're looking at glass fronts, consider using them sparingly. Because glass-front cabinets must be "finished" both inside and out, they cost more. If you're looking at glass fronts for tip-top-at-the-ceiling cabinets, consider mirror fronts instead of glass fronts; no one will be able to tell -- at 7 1/2' up in the air -- that they're not glass ... plus you'll be excused from keeping things neat in those cabinets.

- What finishes are you using? Stained wood cabinets are fairly significantly cheaper than white-painted cabinets.

Regarding "Is that the best you can do?"

There is really nothing wrong with asking that question if you say it with the right tone. This is an excellent negotiating tactic for buyers because what you are asking the seller to do is negotiate against themselves. However, if you are the seller you should never fall into this trap. So the answer should be NO. Only offer to lower the price IF the buyer makes a concession, even if it is a token concession. As soon as you start negotiating against yourself you are probably going to lose that negotiation.

I used to be a ruthless negotiator until I became a sole proprietor in a service business. If I come down $100 or $1000 from my price, you are quite literally taking that money out of my own pocket. I have a better appreciation now for what I am asking someone to do when I ask them to come down on price. So when I do negotiate I am satisfied with a smaller discount instead of pushing for every dollar I think I can squeeze out of the person.

I negotiate for a living, but my average negotiations are in an entirely different industry. My concern for negotiating with a contractor or cabinet vendor is that there is usually a trade off and if it is a smaller vendor, the price concession comes out of their profit. If I ask my contractor to discount his bid, that contractor is likely subtracting something out of the scope of work to accommodate that. I want high quality work, I don't want the job done 99% of the way properly, I want it done correctly. Or he needs to take on additional jobs to make up that profit, which delays the project timeline and makes it hard to get someone to return to finish the final punch list.

Likewise with cabinets, if that vendor is cutting their profits, what services aren't you getting? What happens when there is a problem and cabinets need to be remade or you need to make a slight change? A satisfied vendor with a great relationship with their client is going to work extra hard for you and be the type of repeat business that they want to win back. If you start off de-valuing their cabinets, it begins your business relationship in a vulnerable way and sets you up to have a more difficult time. Is it worth saving 1 to 2% to damage your working relationship?

If you have to negotiate, I recommend a softer approach - my budget is X and we're slightly over. Can we work together to reach a reasonable compromise so that I can purchase your cabinets within my budget? And then you both try to compromise. But most reasonable people would take offense to someone asking if that is the best you can do, because you just made the negotiation personal and questioned their integrity. Some people can pull it off (based on tone, relationship, etc), but it sometimes falls flat and starts your relationship with your cabinet contractor poorly.

Thank you for your explanation jbs. You raised some points I had not even thought about, because I wouldn't even know to! Will definitely hold on to your advice. :)

I've used "is there any flexibility in that number?" to great effect. Or "that's a bit more than I was anticipating. Is there anything we can do with that?" I'm pretty soft spoken most of the time so people don't tend to take offense--usually they offer 5-10% and then apologize it can't be more. I know they have to make a living--we all do. I assume they know what makes sense to them.

Oh--I rarely ask for discounts on professional services--I think about their price per hour and compare it to the rates of other skills and what that translates to per year (knowing they don't necessarily get paid for 40 hours a week).

But with things like furniture purchases, they frequently go on sale, and a store will often give the sale price even if the last sale was 2 weeks ago and the next is 2 weeks in the future--because they want you to buy now.

I also had no interest in negotiating for my cabinets. I searched out companies that had been in business for awhile. I believe that for the most part those that have been in business for many years are doing something right in terms of quality, customer service, etc. and I am more interested in cashing in on that than a few dollars.

Everyone is entitled to make a living, and IMHO those that manage to get discounts are also more likely to get shortcuts in product or service or both.

ETA: After I signed my contract I made some changes. My cabinet maker told me that changes would cost more. I told him that I fully expected to pay for any and all changes. At the end of the day there were no changes to my cost.

"At the end of the day there were no changes to my cost."

If the job was a fair margin, and the customer a pleasure to deal with, I like to cover any small change order costs like that. Small. I can't afford large. On a recent small job, I threw in a bread drawer that the customer had wanted, but cut out due to costs. (Among other things)

It made for a delighted hand clap and hug. That's why we do what we do. :) The money isn't the main motivator. Because if it were, I would make way more working for the big high pressure sales place an hour's commute away. I value my integrity and temper too much for that. I'm a Kitchen Designer, not a sales weasel. No offence to sales weasels. But I gave up trying to "sell" because I couldn't bend the truth enough. I'd rather not do a job at all than to do one where the other person lacks such a basic ability to trust and collaborate.

Pensacola, we are nearing the end of our kitchen remodel. I'm extremely frugal and we had a low budget and I spent a TON of time researching on this forum and pricing out different cabinet options before we pulled the trigger. I priced out painting our current cabinets, RTA, Home Depot budget cabinets, and cabinets from local dealers. In the end we got cabinets from a local dealer, and looking back this was probably our best decision. We found a local rep that carries a budget line that was similar in cost as the budget HD American Woodmark (and they look so much better). The RTA cabinets really weren't much cheaper! The exception was Ikea of course, which we could have done for about half the price. Everything went so smoothly, the order was perfect, our rep knew exactly what dimensions to order of everything, including all the trims, toekicks, and moldings. We had zero problems with delivery or damage. To me, that was worth every penny for this service! We did a lot of the install, demo, flooring work ourselves so I'm glad we didn't add to the scope with RTA's or cause delays with cabinet order problems (i.e. Vishektans's Barker experience).