I would ask how much it would cost if the compressor was not under warranty and how much to replace the whole unit.

This is a lot of money for a repair. I get the impression your guy is not interested in doing the job. I could be wrong but I get the feeling Mitsubishi is not providing a free compressor.

Get another quote. If that is the going rate then I will be considering a career change.

It may depend on how the compressor failed. It it is a clean fail all they have to do is plug in the new one. If the failure involved spewing a lot of particles and gunk into all the lines and indoor units, They have to flush all that out. That might be very time consuming. Get another estimate if you can.

I'm working on getting other estimates. The company that installed it said that they had to drain everything, replace the compressor then fill it back up. They did say the part was free.

I hope others who are considering mini splits have a chance to read this thread...for that cost, why would you not just consider a new outdoor unit?..

how many outdoor units do you have?

Keep us posted. Good Luck.

IMO

Tiger, this is a Mitsubishi 5 zone model, It may be as high as 3.5 ton BTU output.

If that's the case, you can't even buy a new one (outdoor unit only) of these for $3,000

If you replace only the outdoor unit you have to go back with Mitsubishi you can't just stick any old mini split to work with the indoor heads. Because this technology changes so much and so fast I don't know that you could do what you are proposing anyway.

Your options will be few.

Austin...I never said you could buy an outside condenser for 3K...my point was 3K for a compressor only might not be a good use of resources. Sounds ridiculous but might be the best option. I will assume then his whole system is down. Yes/No?

IMO

Tiger, It sounded to me like one condenser with 5 heads (zoned). If the zones are individual with 5 separate outdoor units then it would be cheaper. But I don't think this is what the OP has.

Right. I have 1 outdoor unit with 5 indoor heads. I did consider purchasing a new outdoor unit but just the unit itself is about $4k. I don't know what the labor cost would be to install just the outdoor unit but I estimate a total of about 5-6k for new unit and installation which adds up an already expensive system that I spent 14k on about 4 years ago

If you decide to repair this unit, who ever you have do the repair you want to be sure they will stand behind the work, take over any other repairs that is needed down the line. Due to the highly technical nature of this system the last thing you would want is a bunch of problems after the repair is made... like cooling heads not working properly and so on.

Stick to Mitsubishi certified contractors only.

It would seem to me that installing dealer should give you a little slack on new outside unit if you decide against a compressor (warranty on part)only install. So you have been down now how many days?...what is your location?...imagine that your outdoor unit gets a good workout on 5 zones.

IMO

I am still trying to understand how one justifies a $3000 labor charge to replace a compressor. I assume it is a one person job and if that is the case how many hours does it take and what materials are needed?

tigerdunes - I've been down almost 2 weeks now. I'm in the state of CT. I'm taking my time and trying to get quotes from other places but having a hard time. I'm not in a rush as I still have a boiler for the cold days so I have another 4-5 months to get it repaired.

mike_home - I am with you and I called them and asked for more information. They said it's a 2 man job and it's almost the same effort to replace the compressor as doing a new install because they have to recover all of refrigerant from each of the heads, replace the compressor then recharge. I still can't see this taking more than a full day but that's where I'm at.

It's very frustrating that this system isn't even 4 years old which was expensive in the first place now requires a major and expensive repair. I left messages for other experts with these units so I'm hoping a could find a better option but right now I'm not seeing much light at the end of the tunnel.

I may be missing something, but why should it be more complicated than compressor replacement in a conventional system or in a 1:1 minisplit? I have a hard time believing that they have to break and make connections and pump down 5 indoor units individually. They must have it set up so refrigerant can be recovered all at once and there is one set of connections at the compressor.

For what it is worth, a while back when I needed an indoor unit (MSZ) blower motor I download some parts lists from Mitsubishi's web site. This is for a MXZ-5B42NA

Parts No. Parts Name Symbol In Wiring Diagram Q'ty/unit MXZ- Remarks

T92 EA0 617 COMPRESSOR MC 1 TNB306FPGM2

I wonder how much it costs to equip maintain and repair a home with more than one outdoor unit vs. one large one.

Since I have 2, MXZ-2B20NA and 1, MXZ-3B24NA systems with 7 indoor units, I've thought about the advisability of mothballing equipment making it available for recombination if I ever had a part of a system fail with no replacements available.

for OP....your boiler is fueled by oil or nat gas?... and to be clear, your minisplit 5 zone system is a HP system?...what is your electric rate?....

IMO

I may be missing something, but why should it be more complicated than compressor replacement in a conventional system or in a 1:1 minisplit?

This system is zoned via the refrigerant circuit. Meaning you can turn off several of the cooling heads and cool just 1 zone or multiple zones (when the system is working normally).

Due to the nature of the mini split market and the plethora of ways, models and configurations of equipment in this segment requires a lot of continual training and know how just to keep up with equipment changes / configurations and controls for those configurations.

I've been in this industry for over 23 years, if a caller approached me with a problem of this magnitude (multi zone mini split) and I wasn't the original installer I would probably decline the job. Either that or I would be paid really well to learn their system and buy all the new tools necessary to be able to work on it to fix it.

If it was a question of finding someone cheaper, I would take a pass. Been down that road enough to know I would be better walking down a road with land mines.

The reason for this is that I know better. Some call it experience.

Further explanation: why does it cost more for a zoned duct system than just regular ducts with no zoning. Zoning on anything will increase repair costs of that system. This is the 'gotchya' part to mini split zoning as the zoning is done via the refrigeration circuit. So every time you have to access the refrigeration circuit there is a gotchya moment.

The benefit of a zoned ducted system is that if the zoned ducted system is done properly there is little to no extra expense to maintain it if the equipment that is attached to it fails. These are the hidden costs of mini split market when you get into specialty controls and specialty equipment.

Assuming that the tech that will do the compressor replacement is Mitsubishi-trained, and knows how to make sure all the appropriate valves are in the correct positions to access all refrigerant, do you have a proposal for a time -consuming step? The only thing that I can think of might be to test all 5 indoor units after restarting rather than 1. The system itself might do all or a large part of that making that moot. They are putting in one compressor, not 5.

i will give you some of your points about complexity. (The OP has 5 blower motors, for example.). This has little to do with rhe simple compressor replacement that is the subject of the moment.

The problem is as I see it, you think it's a simple compressor replacement.

If it's so simple, why is the OP having trouble finding someone who will do it?

You are looking at the act of merely replacing a compressor, you are not looking one step further as in the unit actually working and doing what it is supposed to do after the compressor has been replaced.

Why do you suppose Mitsubishi requires companies to be trained & certified to work on these machines? Because it's so easy?

That's about as simple as I can explain it to you.

What makes a mini-split so much more complex to service and install compared to a traditional split system?

The guestion at hand is, how much labor cost should be involved in replacing a compressor in a 5x mini split. As of this moment, we have only the OP’s installing contractor’s quote. To know, a service/repair manual with a procedure would be very useful. Otherwise, we can only contribute more speculation unless a poster appears who has done the procedure.

What makes a mini-split so much more complex to service and install compared to a traditional split system?

Parts on mini split are brand and model specific. While it's possible some parts may be used in more than one model from same manufacturer this isn't always the case. These parts aren't used on traditional split system, nor are they shared among different brands of mini splits. This is where constant training costs come in, to inform whoever works on these systems how they operate and possibly how to determine a bad part from a good one.

Mini splits are most often inverter systems to one degree or another. An older model may be inverter type except compressor or full inverter including compressor.

Mini splits are critically charged with refrigerant. You can not 'fine tune' the charge on a mini split. Because the system is critically charged there can't be any leaks. While it's not a good idea to have a refrigerant leak on any system whether traditional or mini split there is more leeway on a traditional system, meaning that you can recharge the traditional system to get the system to cool temporarily until the repair can be made. (depending on the severity of the leak, obviously.)

A mini split with a refrigerant leak, this recharging would be a waste of time, money and refrigerant. Every time a mini split is suspect low on charge the system must be evacuated completely of refrigerant and then the charge must be weighed in (however this would be pointless if you didn't fix the leak first, not to mention know the exact charge required by the system). The amount of refrigerant needed depends on length of line set. For this reason alone pretty much keeps you in the hands of the installing company, especially if your mini split system is a zoned multi head mini split with one out door condensing unit. If the refrigerant charge is not correct what could happen?... keep reading.

Mini splits have a plethora of controls and sensors that prohibit operation. Meaning if something is wrong it is most likely to spit out an error code on the indoor head, the outdoor condenser or both and it will refuse to run until the problem is corrected. If you don't know or understand these errors, please refer back to training posted at the top of this comment.

If the mini split in question is a zoned mini split with one condensing unit and multiple heads magnify the margin of error of refrigerant charge by 100, would probably be close to accurate.

ionized_gw,

The only way you could compare labor is if you were able to obtain two quotes from competing companies.

This is not likely on a zoned 5 head mini split system. You would have to find a second company willing to stick their neck out on a system they did not install, all at the same time be able to obtain the warranty compressor from Mitsubishi. (We can't even agree in a forum board, you think two separate companies are going do duke it out over a warranty claim?)

If you're not a diamond contractor, getting a warranty compressor probably will not happen unless you have friends in high places that are also in Mitsubishi's back pocket.

Certainly, I could be wrong... but I doubt it.

Parts on mini split are brand and model specific....

With the exception of the last paragraph is this not all true for modern variable speed system of any kind .

Are you suggesting the OP should get a second quote from a Mitsubishi Diamond dealer to see if a $3000 labor charge to replace a compressor is the going rate for his area? I am glad you agree with the suggestion I posted 10 days ago.

Ionized_gw,

Parts? Ok, how modern is modern? Given the mini split market models change so frequently there is no way to prove what you are saying let alone prove what I am saying. If it can't be proven to any degree of certainty what do we have exactly?

Two people talking on the internet. LOL. Thanks for pointing this out.

Mike, there in lies the problem. I doubt a different Mitsubishi Diamond dealer would want to get involved in a warranty claim for a complicated, knowledge heavy, 5 head zoned system they didn't install. As I said before I could be wrong, but what does this competing dealer have to gain?

The whole point is trying to get a cheaper repair cost. Companies that go thru all the hoops necessary to become a Mitsubishi Diamond dealer do not do it to work on competitor installed systems for warranty claim repairs of those systems.

If this system was outside the warranty period, the OP might have better options in terms of competition among dealers... because they then have the opportunity to repair and or replace the existing system.

Hopefully that makes sense... right, wrong or indifferent... that is business.

I do agree that a second authorized Mitsubishi dealer may not want to step on the toes of someone else. But when a compressor fails in less than 4 years then you have to consider the original installation may have been done incorrectly. A second Mitsubishi dealer may see something that was done wrong. Or it could have something that can't be seen like not flowing nitrogen during brazing of the lineset.

Getting a second opinion from a trained installer can't hurt.

I wonder how much Mitsu has to dictate about warranty labor. If they were fixing a Ford and a compressor was being replaced we could look up the flat rate charge.

Whoa. Thanks to all for your explanations of "zoned" mini-split systems. I was considering this tech for a reno but you've changed my mind. Sorry for your troubles OP.

Mike it's not about stepping on toes... it's about risk to your company name not to mention opening yourself to getting involved in something that is not worth the time or effort (you know, chasing repairs for those looking only for cheaper repair prices on complex systems not installed by your company). If you're in business, you're in business to make a profit. You're not in business to necessarily fix, repair and or bail out your competitors from problems they have created so they can continue to make said problems and to a degree get off 'scott free'. (This isn't to suggest the company that installed this system the OP posted did anything inappropriately that caused this problem, I don't have that information nor enough information to reach any such conclusion.)

I say the above 'loosely' because I find myself working on and fixing countless systems that I did not install each and every year. I am one guy doing everything I do... so trying to portray how this industry works on a forum board is many times misleading.

Mini splits aren't designed to have brazed joints, they are designed with flare connections. It is highly unlikely there would be a need to flow nitrogen on such a system just as much as there probably was no need for a oxy / acetylene torch at all on the installation of this system.... this will change now that the compressor has died as those connections will have to be brazed.

Mini splits have no duct work. So you can't blame the problem on inadequate ducting or improper ducting.

So what could be to blame? Poor refrigerant circuit design.

Ah, the old 'gotchya' deal mentioned before. How could that cause failure? poor oil return to compressor. Realize this is merely a guess. (Poor oil return leads to compressor running hot, acids form and viola you have the recipe for destruction.)

It also could be that the total length of the refrigerant circuit is right at or above the allowed refrigerant length of this particular set up. Like I said previously... all highly technical, high knowledge type stuff.

Due to the size of the structure this problem may not be correctible, other than to rip it out and start from scratch with a ducted system. Again, this is merely a guess. My magic 8 ball moments are extremely limited.

Mitsubishi requirements typically end with training and sales goals (new equipment selling). Selling systems is a requirement / repairing them is not. (Ironic huh?)

It should also be noted that the code of conduct would include proper licensing, certifications and so on to be a 'LEGAL' Licensed HVAC Contractor in your state of residency.

The length of the pipes and elevation changes are “highly technical “? I have read the installation manuals . It’s seems like all that is needed is a tape measure, a four-function calculator, and average intelligence. Duct work, on the other hand, seems more demanding.

Ray,

Suppose you get a call to fix a compressor on a Goodman condenser which was installed by someone else and is still under the parts warranty. Would you take the job?

If the initial training is 2 days, how much and how often do you think is the continual training is to keep up with the changing technology of the Mitsubishi mini-splits?

The length of the pipes and elevation changes are “highly technical “? I have read the installation manuals .

All I can say is: Then what is stopping you? Go take the test to become a Licensed HVAC Contractor in your state of residency.

Anyone can sit in a forum board claiming how easy it is. The problem with your thought process is that you aren't thinking about what you have to do 'to get to' the pipes in order to measure them, are you sure they are accurate among all the twists and bends. Then applying the additional rules to accurately measure twists and bends all the while hovering on rafters or crawling thru a crawl space.

Sure measurements are simple. LOL.

Don't let me talk you out of it. Go take the HVAC licensing exam in your state. You are half way there to becoming a simpleton. Go for it.

Note: In Texas it's unfortunately not that simple to become a HVAC license holder. You must possess 4 years verifiable experience, before they will even let you anywhere near a HVAC licensing exam. No matter how simple you 'think' this job is.

Suppose you get a call to fix a compressor on a Goodman condenser which was installed by someone else and is still under the parts warranty. Would you take the job?

Absolutely, but this isn't limited to only Goodman. I repair ALL HVAC BRANDS. I have rebuilt many condensers over the years on systems I did not install. The conundrum now is that R22 Freon many times makes rebuilding older systems not worth the effort. So many times I do conversions if that is possible or replace the condenser and evaporator as sometimes that is the best way forward. Currently I doubt I would find a R22 Freon compressor still under parts warranty.

If the initial training is 2 days, how much and how often do you think is the continual training is to keep up with the changing technology of the Mitsubishi mini-splits?

At a minimum I would think a few classes every year is good possibility. Mini splits change much faster than traditional ducted systems.

At some point I believe these competing technologies will meld and the traditional ducted systems will catch up. It might take another 15-20 years for ducted systems to become inverter only type systems.

This really comes down to EPA / DOE rules in efficiency requirements. As an example in 2006 minimum efficiency requirements was 13 SEER a mere 10 years later this was increased to 14 SEER in the south. The next jump up would make all furnaces inverter based... after that it's only a matter of time as all the pieces are in place.

Ray,

In the case of the Mitsubishi mini split you stated in an earlier post that a second contractor would not want to get involved in a warranty repair. But in the case of a Goodman condenser you take on a warranty repair job (let's assume it is a 410a refrigerant) with no hesitation. This seems like a contraction. Can you explain what is different in these two situations?

Ok wait a minute hold on... I've had a revelation so I've changed my mind. After 23 years of being in the HVAC industry. I boldly confess my job is simple.

The hard part is convincing you it is not. So is it simple?

When it's 100 degrees outside you come home to a hot house on a holiday weekend or even just normal weekend sometimes --- you're sitting there sweating bullets calling contractor after contractor who doesn't answer their phone, or the phone has been disconnected. Remember this job is simple for crying out loud why don't these contractor's answer their phone?

Then you call me and I answer within a few rings. You're talking directly to the guy who will come to your house. The guy who will be to your house within 90 minutes* of getting the call. Over 80% of the time your AC is fixed in under 3 hours* time from the time you called. (*You must reside within my immediate service area)

I say this only: BECAUSE MY JOB IS SIMPLE.

I've painted a picture for you, that is accurate to a fault.

Although it is true that bends have to be included in the tube length calculations, That is included in the manual too. It is an easy read. It is just another factor taken into account with the calculator or spreadsheet.

You misdirected the discussion by bringing up certification requirements for contractors. The question was, what is hard about refrigerant tubing length?

In the case of the Mitsubishi mini split you stated in an earlier post that a second contractor would not want to get involved in a warranty repair. But in the case of a Goodman condenser you take on a warranty repair job (let's assume it is a 410a refrigerant) with no hesitation. This seems like a contraction. Can you explain what is different in these two situations?

Mike good question.

I can tell you it's a somewhat complicated answer. In business the goal is profitability whether you like this or not it's the only reason you go to work so it's no different for me. How I get paid is what I collect from you the home owner I am doing work for. After deducting a lot of expenses what is left over at the end of the year is what I pay myself. There are no two years alike.

Just because you have a good year or two, doesn't mean it will continue. So aside from that you have statistics. How likely am I to find a Goodman condenser that needs repair?

Simple odds tells me very likely. A mini split? not so likely. On a good day they may make up 5% of the market maybe even less than this in my area.

Doesn't it make good business sense to be a repair specialist for the Goodman condenser ( I work on all HVAC brands so I use the term Goodman, loosely here.)

Special tools and procedures are required to work on mini splits not to mention having to continually train and update as the technology progresses only to serve at best a 5% market size.

It doesn't mean I wouldn't work on a mini split, but someone calling me about a system I didn't install in the mini split market category is going to pay me to learn their system not to mention buy the tools required to work on it, because I am not going to waste my time trying to keep up to date on a market segment that makes up 5% of my market. On top of this many mini split manufacturer's market their systems to the DIY crowd. I have no interest in running down this rabbit hole with you.

You know I give an estimate to repair and the guy says 'Hey, I bought this whole system for $600 five years ago and put it in myself.' My response to that is: then why are you calling me? I guess because it's easier to pick up a phone. There's simple for you on a platter.

The question was, what is hard about refrigerant tubing length?

In and of itself, nothing.

The average cost of a 5 ton replacement compressor about $950.00. Labor Cost is between $850.00 and $1,150.00