You might want to look at The Gift and its offspring Abigail Adams. There's another rose I saw on the High Country Roses' website called "Christian J" which may be worth trying, but I have never seen it mentioned elsewhere, nor any whole-plant pictures. Nevada and/or its pink sport Marguerite Hilling may also work. Finally, check out roses bred by Louis Lens -- you may find something of interest there.

:-)

~Christopher

Ghislaine is nice. Maybe a little more of a climber than Darlow but can be pruned/ trained I think. I like Christopher's suggestions too!

Grow some of Darlow's seeds.

You took the words right out of my mouth, Henry. In many instances, you don't even have to plant them. They just germinate in place like those of The Gift.

I've never had a Darlow's volunteer, though I'd like to. In this climate is apparently takes planting the seeds deliberately, and probably caring for them through their first winter. It is somewhere on my To Do list.

I think Darlow's is a diploid?

Henry & roseseek, my husband has been after me for years to try growing rose seeds. Would it be too late to harvest the hips now? We've had some freezing but probably not below 25.

Dingo, I've been considering Ghislaine, so elegant. She's proving hard to find.

Christopher, Abigail Adams is perfect, and a Mike Lowe rose...I can't resist. Marguerite Hilling, wow spectacular! I actually got Christian J this year :)

They speculate that it might be an offspring of Darlow's Enigma, but suggest it will be smaller. Will be interesting to see how it grows, the color is fabulous, I hope it gets big.

Paul your Darlow is a behemoth!! OK, I just have to show mine off. Really it's just about the perfect rose.

Paul and Henry would likely have better advice than I about harvesting after harder freezes. "Freezing" here is thought to be anything below about fifty degrees! LOL!

It is usually suggested that the hips be picked before the outdoor temperature reaches into the mid 20s, but guidelines are just that - guidelines, go ahead and try; if I was a betting man, I would bet that you will get enough germinations to be happy with even though you are a little late in getting started (low temperature wise).

http://www.paulbardenroses.com/kuskaseed.html

Thanks, Henry, that was my thought, but, as I said, I've not done it.

You might find Ghislaine at Long Ago Roses. I got mine from High Country, but they currently list it as out of stock but that may be due to the season. ARE lists it, but as a once bloomer so maybe call and see? Love all the pics!!

Ratdogheads, I love the seedling idea! And I'd love to read progress reports/see photos of the results.

And speaking of seedlings, Hybrid Musk Lyda Rose is a good one and should be hardy in zone 5, I hear. More of a medium sized shrub. I also place another vote for Ghislaine de F. I have trained Ballerina as a climber and have read it is zone 5 hardy. I will be curious to read your experience. Marjorie Fair, although smaller, is zone 5 and was good in my zone 7-8 garden. Bayse's Purple (although not a HM) looks great with all Hybrid Musks. Christian J is gorgeous!

Lovely photos, everyone!

:-) Carol

Darlow had the rose trained on an arbor, near the entrance to the Garden. I've seen this done elsewhere here also. Point being it can be twice as tall when given support. And it grows at least head high even without it.

There are a lot of them around here, I have seen it many times in many situations. Probably all emanating from Darlow, in one way or another.

Dear RDH,

Belive Joy Creek has Ghislaine de F. I think you might like the HMusk Daphne, you could check her out on HMF, she is healthy and tough here, but your mileage will vary.

Best

Claire

Carol, do you have Christian J? I would love photos or info. I've also thought it looked gorgeous in the HCR's catalog.

No, Sheila, unfortunately I don't. Like you, I've only seen internet photos. It has definitely triggered my curiosity! Carol

Great suggestions from the group and I'm now kicking myself for taking Christian J out of my shopping cart at High Country Gardens this year (if anything is out of stock he's number one to replace it - great photo ratdogheads). I think a lot of hybrid musks will do well in your zone 5, though I've had poor winter survival from some HMs like Lyda Rose and Prosperity. Wilhelm has been a large self-supporting trooper like Darlow's Enigma in mostly shade, just like the great specimen of Paul's DE. In fact, DE is peeking in back of Wilhelm here and neither get any care whatsoever - pruning, feeding, spraying, fussing - bah. Maybe a little alfalfa for Wilhelm since he's toward the front of the bed, but I'm not braving DE's hooky thorns to get near enough to feed that dragon.

Turns out Wilhelm is actually getting crowded out by another HM, Heavenly Pink, to the point he's going to need replacing. I haven't tracked Wilhelm down yet since my plant was from Vintage, so I'm trying Will Scarlet this year from HCR. Here's Heavenly Pink looking typically thuggish and huge, also a freestanding bush but not as much color contrast from DE as Wilhelm would be - the spread here is a good 6-8 feet in the typical large clusters that HP produces:

Then there's always Robin Hood, or what I presume is Robin Hood as a best guess from Rogue Valley's mystery roses several years ago (someone else had another label for theirs that I have forgotten). Mine is a spring with scattered rebloom rose and not as spectacular in the cramped spot I have mine as the one is that I put in the neighbor's yard with as much room as it wants (also shade). Also zero care and rock-solid hardy, whatever it is (corrections to my label are welcome):

A closer shot to help with ID

One of my all-season bloomers is the very reliable and ultra hardy Bad Worishofen (Pink Emely). It's not an OGR and it's lower than DE (maybe 4'), but it sits and pumps out dark pink blooms pretty much nonstop with no care beyond deadheading all summer. In this photo you can see how hard it is to keep up on the deadheading of this profuse bloomer:

Plenty of options in zone 5 I'd say. There are some lower growing Easy Elegance roses that would also be reliable bushy bloomers as well as large bushy once bloomers like Veilchenblau and Paul Barden's terrific gallicas.

Cynthia

Cynthia, after that tribute with photos to all the great zone 5 roses, I'm tempted to move north again! Carol

Wow, beautiful roses all! Thank you for that Christian J, rat dog. I missed it.

Cynthia, thank you! I seem to recall that you grow Francesca, what can you tell me? Among yellows, I considered Gislaine, Buff Beauty, Danae, and ended up with Francesca (ARE cyber-Monday sale!)

I was looking at Will's Scarlet for a pop of color, but I like your Wilhem!

Lyda was one of the first roses I ever grew in NH; didn't do much and I replaced it. I've always regretted it and feel like I didn't give it enough of a chance. I love dainty single blooms. Heirloom had it on sale so I grabbed it along with Bukavu, which they list as z5, so fingers crossed. So I guess I just won't place Lyda where I want a huge monster. Sounds like Bukavu may also stay relatively short.

Thinking about Plaisanterie, I don't know why. It's just calling to me.

I collected a bunch of hips from Darlow have been snipping them open and picking out the seeds. Reading up on what to do with them, seems daunting. DH needs to build me a greenhouse...

Ratdog, Plaisanterie is very interesting! Do you know who stocks it? I checked RVR & Hortico (listed on HMF), but neither one has it. Love the color!

Dingo, RVR had it in stock as of this morning. I tried searching by a partial name and got nothing, but using Hybrid Musk as a selection I found it. And they rate it a zone 5.

Cynthia, thank you for those beautiful pics to support your suggestions. I live in 6b pocket, but prefer to zone down for many things (especially climbers) so as not to worry about winter survival. From where did you get Wilhelm? After hearing about Christian J, I'm kicking myself for not getting it while visiting HCR this summer.

Ratdog, I think we're looking at very similar selections. I went with Phyllis Bide and Cornelia, but they're more peachy-pink than yellow. Please let us know how Felicia does for you as I'm planning a yellow area for next years order. : )

Does anyone grow Plaisanterie? I just like saying the name. It's one reason I don't understand replacing completely romantic sounding sames with something totally pedestrian. Maybe they should just put a phonetic pronunciation on the label as I suppose that's why they change them.

P.S. If you're actually getting rid of Wilhelm, would you consider parting with a few cuttings? I'd even be willing to try winter cuttings as I'm anxious to attempt the "burrito" method.

Ghislaine is much like Darlow's E in form and bloom cycle in my garden. Jeanne LaJoie makes a free standing large shrub when there is nothing to climb on. Wm. Baffin also makes a good stand alone shrub. Mine is in almost total shade and is covered in bloom in late spring, and sporadically the rest of the season. Another Canadian, John Cabot, also fills the bill. Therese Bugnet blooms well in partial shade for me. These are outside my garden area, so they get no attention from me, but carry on beautifully. I've seen photos of Ballerina and Marjorie Fair (Red Ballerina) that get as big as you're hoping for, but mine are still babies, so can't vouch for that. The only full bush photo I have is of John Cabot just before the wind blew him down last summer. I cut him off at the base, and he's already 7' tall with blooms well into November. Some years I hard prune him, and some years I don't prune him at all. He's always beautiful. He's never had any rose food or compost. Shame on me!

That is gorgeous!!! Wow

Thanks, Lilyfinch! I've posted it before, but thought it might be new to some folks here. I LOVE this rose. It's a workhorse.

That is insanely gorgeous!!!!

Interesting post.. I’m growing Darlow’s Enigma and have a two year old seedling from DE. It has all the same fine qualities and growth form of DE, except the single blooms have a blush of light pink. ‘The Gift’ has been prolific and I rescued a seedling from it that has grown slightly larger. This fall I ordered ‘Christian J’ and look forward to seeing what he becomes.

Thanks, vaporvac. It's not quite as gorgeous since it fell over, but it's growing back at lightening speed. Or, it was before winter hit us. It never suffers any die back. I think it must be hardy in the North Pole.

A blush pink Darlow's Enigma sounds beautiful. Neither of mine have produced seedlings so far.

Gorgeous picture of John Cabot, flowersaremusic! Mine hasn't decided if it will survive or not but given your photos I am going to whisper sweet nothings in its ears all winter and hope for good things come spring.

Sorry I missed the earlier questions about Wilhelm, Vaporvac. I got mine from Vintage so it's not an option now of course, but I know I've seen him elsewhere since (maybe High Country Roses or Hortico). I don't want to get rid of mine - far the contrary - but I'm afraid he's being crowded out by the more aggressive Heavenly Pink and he's down to a single cane. Until he recovers more fully I'm afraid to take cuttings of him at all.

Ratdogheads, Francesca is one of those hybrid musks that has limped along for me in zone 5, but it's not in an ideal spot so don't overly judge it there. It's planted under some limbed up pine trees so the ground can get a bit dry. Heavenly Pink and Darlow's Enigma thrive there, but some hybrid musks like Francesca and Cornelia and Clytemnestra hung on with a few scattered flowers for a few years before two of the three fading (Cornelia is still hanging in there). I've planted some of the less hardy HMusks in my warm zone 6 area like Prosperity to get a better response.

As for Danae, I had several copies of her as a mystery plant from RV and they all summarily died over the winter in various places, so I'd say she's not hardy in zone 5 at all. Ghislaine de Feligonde survives fine but is a once bloomer for me and not many blooms at that. Guirlande d'Amour blooms quite nicely if you like that look and it's pretty hardy. Buff Beauty survived a few years in a different spot before dying overwinter and I quite like the flowers. It died pretty quickly in this tough spot, so this year it gets the warm spot as a preferred rose. I think Francesca has a chance for you in a decent spot and perhaps give it a little extra mulch or something for winter protection. You get more reliable snow cover than we do, so that helps your roses even if the weather itself is colder.

Cynthia

I like my Danae, vaporvac, and all of my HMusks here. Not sure on z 6.

Even after being bitten by frost my Felicia bloomed in her new permanent spot. Yours is beautiful Sheila, but how did I miss Danae?

Cynthia, I hope you don't mind that I asked for a cutting, but I've seen a lot of people literally throw their plants in the trash so I didn't want to take that chance if you were really getting rid of it. I'm glad to hear that that's not the case. However, I'm kicking myself again because I now realize that Wilhelm is the same rose as Skyrocket which I just passed over at ARE. Gosh. I may have to rethink that order. I also hope you don't mind, but I'm going to copy your entire front bed with Wilhelm, Darlow's Enigma and whatever else was in that picture on top of my stone retaining wall. Adding in John Cabot and Quadra somewhere.

No worries vaporvac - I'm happy to share plants if I shovel prune them for some reason, though I rarely do that being pretty tolerant of most roses. As for cuttings, mine would have to be bigger to risk it and I don't want to undercut nurseries if they have the rose for sale. It's good to hear that ARE has Wilhelm in case mine does give up the ghost. I'm glad (and flattered) that the picture with Darlow's Enigma and Wilhelm and a baby picture of Heavenly Pink at left front (much bigger now) is useful for you. I think the white rose at the right is a baby Clytemnestra that has now faded and not overwintered for me. I think any of the hybrid musks intermingle well being mostly soft colors, with the occasional zing of dark pink in roses like Wilhelm to jazz things up a bit.

We'd love to see the results as you get your new stone wall roses planted next year.

Cynthia

Thanks for all the input. Cynthia, after hearing your experience with Francesca I reconsidered, changed my order. I have three places where I really want a big plant, and my hope-these-will-get-big choices are: Heavenly Pink, Abigail Adams, and Aptos (Dr Robert Korns).

Aside from Bukavu & Lyda, I did order Plaisanterie and a cutie called Walderdange, which ought to be a small plant. All those are perhaps zone pushing, but you never can tell...

I'm still thinking about Robin Hood, maybe Mozart BUT if they are going to get very large I'd need to rearrange eventually, which is inevitable in my world. I already have Marjorie Fair, new this year, a little band that didn't grow more than an inch all summer and I am anxious about her survival this winter. I seem to recall that she should remain fairly short, especially here.

I'll report back if my Darlow seeds do anything :)

Ratdogheads, did you ever get Will Scarlet? How is Skyrocket and Christian J doing for you two years on? Cynthia, how are you finding Will Scarlet?

Christian J this year.

(edited, had trouble getting the picture to post)

Certainly an alluring color, but honestly to my eye, it's a scruffy plant. Blooms frizzle quickly and hang on looking messy, beginning to blackspot despite having been regularly treated with propiconazole. This is in full sun, might prefer some shade. Not putting it in the free-to-good-home pile yet.

Some of the plants I named above were impossible to find, a couple that I ordered turned out to be unavailable. I ended up with Bukavu, Pookah, Lyda, and Abigail Adams. Bukavu and Pookah were gambles on zone, there just wasn't much info to go on. I'm happy to report they were all impressively hardy. Absolutely head over heals in love with Bukavu and Pookah, Lyda is wonderful in her quiet way.

Abigail Adam wants to be a rambler and I am out of rambler locations. Very pretty blooms and plenty of them. I moved her to spot by a rock wall and hope she'll agree to trail along the edge.

Cynthia, I'd be most interested to hear more about Bad Worishofen (Pink Emely) when you have the chance. Pictures welcome.

HI Vap - sorry I missed your question about Will Scarlet earlier this year. He has settled in nicely this year and I expect good winter survival. Few of my roses bloom in their first years particularly if planted from bands, so I don't think I've had any blooms from Will yet.

As for the lovely Bad Worishofen, happy to share some enabling! It's a Kordes rose so the foliage is spotless all year and it's the kind of rose where I turn around and notice it out of the corner of my eye as a block of pink in an otherwise barren rose landscape mid-summer. It always has at least some blooms on it, though not in the profusion I see in June. It's happier with surviving cane and blooms better - as all roses do - but it recovers by summer fine, though not as big as in the photo below. It stays relatively modest height, with mine no more than 3-3.5' tall at maximum height, but it can be 5' or more wide from end to end when it's happy. I have it in prime real estate so I've started putting some fencing around the outside of his canes to keep him playing nicely with his less hardy neighbors.

Here is a glamour shot of the whole bush in June. The individual flowers aren't that impressive, but the impact is great as a bush. This probably shows its full 3'X5' size since it was a very snowy winter that year and I had good survival of cane in spring.

Here is more of a typical shot of the rose in August, complete with deadheads. This shows that it'll bloom in the high heat and dry conditions of 100+ summer. It's the kind of rose that is a frequent enough bloomer to be tough to keep up with deadheading, and I tend to wait till a whole cluster dies and snap off the bunch.

I'll send those and make sure they post, then show you how many months it blooms.

Cynthia

OK, now to show Bad Worishofen (Pink Emely) and the range of all summer bloom. The shot below is from May, and you can see the allium blooming off to the right. That makes BW one of the earlier roses to bloom in spring, just behind Felix Leclerc and Therese Bugnet I think. I call this my "garish" shot, since I planted BW with Night Sky, both of which were called "red". Ha. BW is only red in the gardening sense, what normal people would call hot pink. Night Sky is a climber with neon orange-red blooms and the two roses clash mightily for about a week in spring. NS is a reluctant rebloomer and when it does the blooms are more muted color that blends a bit better. Fortunately I don't might a bit of garish since I'm way too lazy to move happy roses like this unless they really bug me.

Now the other end of the summer range - here is Bad Worishofen in October. The blooms aren't as impressive but hey - it's October in zone 5 and you can see the rest of the rose bed with maybe 75 roses in the background has precisely one daisy blooming and nothing else. I usually get some November blooms too but I don't have any handy pictures, and they're not particularly photogenic blooms that late in the year. As you would expect, BW is comfortably cane hardy in my zone 5 and occasionally tip hardy.

Hope this helps enable you! I haven't checked to see where it's available but something says that High Country Roses might have it. Mine was own root from Ashdown so that's not an option any more. Suffice to say this rose does just fine on its own roots - I've had it for about 10 years.

Cynthia