Yes ma'am. Precisely.

I have Marechal Niel own root. He is in a deep tree pot. He is 8ft his 2nd year. Im petrified to move him or put him in the ground due to everyone's reports of him being difficult. He's mostly in all day sun with just a smidge of shade after 4pm. He is very happy. If he was grafted he would probably be a monster.

Devoniensis Cl is right next to him in the same style pot. He is the same age and at least 10ft. Both started flowering the first year but flowered a lot more this year.

I think I must just have the perfect climate for these roses. The climbers really take off but I think it would be nice to see them offered budded so they could be grown more widely.

My shrub teas and noisettes seem to be the slow ones here lol. I wouldn't mind having them grafted on fortuniana if it made them more vigorous from the get go.

Jessie Hildreth is my 2nd try. My first one dwindled after being left out during a cold wet winter. So I agree about his lack of cold tolerance. I'm being very very careful with my 2nd one.

I am really glad I'm not the only one who had trouble with "Jesse", not that I would wish trouble on anyone. I also have "Marechal Niel" own root in a pot from Rose Petals, and I plan on being very careful with this rose too. He is also #3, but that is because two others were mislabled (from RVRs) and I think are "Reve d'Or" My MN is too new to know it's vigor. I'm wishing it is a vigorous clone Dr. Malcolm Manners had, I think. I hope, but I don't know where RPs got theirs.

I, too, have the Marechal from RPN, and I, too, am terrified, lol.

Jeri, I shall start disbudding Jesse forthwith. Thank you for that cultural tidbit.

I will have to look up where I got my MN. Most likely it was Rose Petals. It is pretty vigorous. I don't know where they got theirs either. I remember just being thrilled to find it in stock so grabbed it lol. I get most of my OGRs from Rose Petals or a Reverence for Roses.

Don't feel bad, Sheila. I also killed my Lady Hillingdon the same way lol. I hear you get 3 chances to kill a plant so I figure I get 2 more tries lol! I kill stupid stuff like Jade plants. They hate me..they basically look at me and die but then I can grow more exotic stuff like Jade Vines (mucuna b.), Bat plants, and Medinilla with no problem. Go figure lol. I think they have minds of their own.

Another thought: I am on well water here. We drink bottled water but the garden is well water that has a very sulphur smell to it. I haven't measured pH or anything. I guess I should but the plants love it...not as much as they love rain water but they are doing better than when we lived 20 miles from here and were on city water. It also seems to have cut way down on black spot and I never spray. I use vermicompost and rabbit manures too so I don't know if that extra boost of nitrogen makes the climbers take off earlier..just thinking out loud lol.

I have a question later, but reading about well water and all that from Kim and Jasmine. What is the pH or what I need to know the numbers for roses or plants.

I have a well also and it stinks just like how Jasmin describe. Never tested it but it is clear. So, how would I know if it good for plants or not ? I will have it checked. But what numbers is bad or what might be good. Any ideas !

I was thinking as time goes by, I might hook irrigation to well water since it is a pump on it already.

Thanks

Jin

Sultry -- It would be interesting to know what the pH of your water is. Is it a private well? Or? Does it have to pass state tests?

Most of our water still comes from a well down the hill from us. (This is a Mutual Water Company.) We do get an annual analysis, which is why I always know what the pH is running.

No its our own well on our property. The city has recently incorporated this part of where we live so they offer everyone to get hooked up to city water if they want to. We still have a septic tank and a well as most of the people here. We are rural residential so most people have little farms and farm animals so don't want to pay a bunch of money for water when its free. The bad thing is when the electric goes out due to storms etc so does the well. The good thing is, we could have water when the rest of the city doesn't when they have water issues.

It does run through a filtration system before it goes to the house but the garden gets it more sulphured up lol.

Notice the paragraph in this article about soil pH. The information was obtained from The University of California Statewide Integrated Pest Management Program. I grew up on sulfur water in Alabama (So happy to not have THAT anymore!), but a bit of sulfur in the water could actually be a relatively good thing. One of the reasons the Victorians and Edwardians had so few disease issues in Britain was the continuous rain of sulfur on the fogs, dews and rains from the high sulfur heating oils and coal. Once lower sulfur sources were pressed into service, suddenly the old rose writers proclaimed "the roses have lost vigor" and often blamed that on asexual propagation. So, if you shower your roses with water with some sulfur, you may obtain a bit of fungicidal benefit from it, if the form and concentration are right.

We used to have a well on my old ranch, but our current house doesn’t have one and there are so many hoops to jump through to get one, even though we are unincorporated. For those of you that have one, that’s fantastic!

According to our water district analysis, our water is usually between 8.0-8.5 pH. So even though my soil is acidic, the water is quite alkaline.

Jin different areas have different ways to test pH. It’s a measurement of how acidic or basic (alkaline) something is... think back to chemistry from school. :-)

You can use the home tests, but they’re not known to be super accurate. In CA it’s expensive, but you can send in samples of soil to have it analyzed. Most other states don’t charge as much and allow you to send it to a university to have it analyzed. Universities don’t do that in CA for residential, home gardeners. I’m not sure what FL does, but I’m sure it’s easy to look into. :-)

I think when i sent my soil testing. I saw it there. I was thinking about it . I will look more into it. The well came with the house and it is hook to an electric pump. It works beautifully. But stinks awful.

I don't even know the PH of my city water is. Well, I learned so much more from you guys again.

I will look into it more. I am sure it is inexpensive to have water tested. But it never dong on me until Jasmin mentioned about watering her plants and roses.

Thanks

Jin

roseseek, thanks for that explanation on sulfur. It does seem like the water here helps with reducing black spot. I give my rose and most other plant leaves a little shower with the hose every few days or so.

In general, the soil pH for North FL is 6.1. So although our soil is somewhat sandy we are a little acidic because we have a lot of pine trees and hard woods that have needles and leaves decomposing over the years. The plants really thrive in our soil. I amend mine heavily with composted manures etc too. I think having the healthiest plants allows their immune systems to fight off disease before it can take hold.

That said, I know I have nematodes in our soil. I have heavy damage on some of my brugmansia and the yellow varieties suffer the worst (different cultivars of yellows not just one kind) and the pinks are the least damaged. So some are much more susceptible than others. The pinks that have a lot of yellow in their genes seem to also get more nematode damage here. Noticed this over a 10 year period. So, I am currently trying to breed yellows that are more resistant to nematodes.

I also am now wondering if different colors of roses have the same issues. Totally different plants but just kinda thinking about it now.

~Sjn

If I recall correctly, 'Maréchal Niel' was usually grown as a budded plant because the variety was considered to be prone to canker. Although I seem to recall at least one Victorian Englishman writing in to 'The Garden' or some earlier publication about his cankered 'MN' still blooming away just fine... (in his greenhouse, of course).

As for "Jesse", I think he'd be an ideal candidate for budding anywhere outside of his Californian comfort zone... He may also be one of those plants that prefers the West Coast conditions of hot days with cooler nights. Summers here would be so much more tolerable if we got some sort of temperature drop at night, she wrote wistfully.

Virginia

I know EYE sure prefer cool nights!

Oh, Lord YES! That was one reason for choosing this landing area. Nights are traditionally CHILLY.

Yep the nights here stay warm and sultry. Nice for fragrance from the night blooming flowers and the mosquitos sure do like it but bad for the humans lol.

I'm familiar with "those" nights, having been raised near the Gulf Coast and living in Miami for a year before moving to Los Angeles. I don't miss "humid" nor "hot nights" one bit.

Sheila and Virginia, thank you for the good advice of *not* moving Jesse Hildreth a few weeks ago. It warmed up here quite a bit and Jesse has created some buds. It’s warm enough to be an early spring here. Jesse and Peggy Martin in the background will be the first to bloom in my garden. I may end up leaving him there after all if he’s growing and blooming there. No point in working more than I need to. It’s a strange spot in my yard though because you can see the tulips coming up right near him. Those are from last year... totally unchilled or uncared for by me. I honestly thought they would not even come up last year, let alone last year AND this year. So it has enough winter chill there for tulips (which is NOT normal here), but not enough to be a bother to Jesse Hildreth. Who knows. Maybe it’s just a magical spot.

The green hills in the background are such a pleasure right now. Hopefully they last through the month.

Perhaps a bit off topic, but information many will be interested in. Per information from Malcolm Manners, Jesse Hildreth has been tested for RMV and found to be NOT infected! Therefore, Jesse Hildreth can be called "virus indexed". If anyone buds it, please be sure to use a virus indexed or seedling root stock to maintain its status of being free of RMV. Good news, isn't it?

I potted mine up from a 1 gallon to a 3 gallon in late fall when I received it from RPN, and now I just potted it up to a 5 g. Lots of nice roots. I am going to wait to plant it out until April 1, so that I have no worries of a late freeze. I i will also disbud it until then (though it makes me sad).

Re Kim's post -- The other thing that virus-free status indicates is that the date on the burial site -- 1860 -- is probably reasonably close to the date the rose was planted there.
IOW, it was planted before virus began to show up.
So (yeah, I'm a history freak) Jesse Hildreth's rose was probably planted by his bereaved family -- who appear to have sold up and left the area for Southern California, not long after his death.
Poor Jesse.

Cori Ann, I do think your garden has some magic in it!

As for Jesse coëxisting with tulips, it makes sense if you get cool temperatures, but not freezy ones. Since you're in 9b, we know you don't generally get freezes, but I'm guessing you get plenty of the cool temperatures that tulips like.

Hardiness zones only tell us how cold it's likely to get during your colder winters; they don't give info about how long cold temperatures may last, and they tell us zilch about heat, humidity and day length.

I think Jesse probably likes cool weather, but isn't especially cold-hardy, if that makes sense. In 9b, I doubt there's much reason to move him to a warmer spot, but if you ever do get a forecast for a hard freeze, he might need some winter protection.

Virginia

Its VI status at least indicates it was produced, or propagated from a plant pre dating, perhaps the middle of the Twentieth Century, when it was increasingly difficult to find clean stock. "Infectious Chlorosis" was first written of in the 1920s from what I have read. Infection hit its zenith in the late eighties to early nineties when it has been suggested more than 80% of the US stock was infected. But, as early as thirty-plus years before that, European growers were complaining about the US spreading it to foreign shores. I'm not denying it should be possible that plant was actually planted there more than a century ago, but what was it about that plant and that spot which permitted it to not only survive, but even thrive while others didn't? The lack of irrigation, the exposed position of that site, the low rainfall of the area and the heat it received would, I think, make it difficult for a plant to have survived as well as it did for as long as it apparently has. Would I enjoy being able to determine it IS a pre Twentieth Century survivor? Absolutely!

I'm pretty sure it is, Kim.
Just a few years ago, there were many more roses there than there are now. And the area USED to get more rain than it does.

That could help explain why it's persisted. It's definitely one which wants to climb and something as huge as it once must have been, would have had a tremendous root system, perhaps one which may well have found a source of ground water. The other really large plants in that place are where they likely benefit from run off from the paved areas, focusing more water in their vicinities. If the others which are no longer there, hadn't the depth, breadth and mass of roots Jesse generated, they likely wouldn't have survived as well nor as long.

I’m just throwing this thought out here, and I’m probably off base, but I’ll post it anyway. This thought crossed my mind because I just SPed my severely virused ‘Mary Rose’. That rose suffered from diseases that I normally don’t ever see in my garden. Could it be that because Jesse Hildreth is virus free, THAT played a part in the plant surviving over 150 years? Lisa

I've heard VI plants do live longer and tolerate stress better. That could be another reason the Antique roses could survive so long. They seem to have been really well adapted to the climate too, although that could get harder if the climate heats up further.

The conditions have to be right for anything to survive in an artificial situation for it. For a rose, bred and selected by Humans and not something "native", therefore adapted and suited to its environment, to survive, the light, water, temperatures, etc. have to be right. Granted, in many California environments, many roses have found such suitable situations. RMV can weaken the plant. How much, depends on how heavy the infection is, how strong the strain, how susceptible the particular rose is to the virus and how the rose's immune system is impacted by the infection. Those are all variables which can differ greatly from one strain of virus to the next and one rose variety to the next. Just on the face of it, anything that reduces the chlorophyll, the green areas of the foliage, is going to reduce the plant's ability to feed itself. Variegated forms of plants are frequently not as vigorous as solid green forms, often because they aren't as efficient at feeding themselves. RMV has other effects on the plants which can alter how vigorous they are and how capable they are of fending off other disease attacks as well as severe heat or cold effects. For every example of a rose not performing well we can try blaming on virus, there is one which appears to contradict it. For many years, there was a plant of the old HT, Autumn, growing in the old beds out under the Hollywood Juniper at The Huntington. The soil was quite compacted and obviously depleted. There was tremendous tree root competition and a lot of shade for those roses to handle. Yet, that Autumn was a huge plant which grew very large and regularly flowered. We used to joke the RMV acted to prevent it from taking over the garden.

My JH has refused to bloom... until now. He has put on a little growth but no new big canes but he has two little buds. ❤️

Do you suppose he's a California kind of guy?

He’s just beautiful! Suncoast, you must be excited to see those buds!

Jeri, I often mixup many roses, or forget which looks like what. Because of this post, I’m certain I’ll always remember that ‘Jesse Hildreth’ is the “Classy white/yellow Tea”, that is Virus Free! It even rhymes! Thanks, Jeri! Lisa

Re virus : My mother's very heavily virused HP from a cutting from a bush in an old garden in Sebastopol, CA (I'm pretty sure it's Ulrich Brunner Fils -- maybe sold originally as a faux 'American Beauty', which was so crazily in demand during the 1920s and 1930s that many ringers were passed off as that in order to meet demand) has survived more than 60 years on its own roots in dreadful conditions (shade, roots of a cedar tree, drought...) in Santa Rosa and managed to bloom well every spring and sometimes in the summer (my cutting of it, in better conditions and well-watered, blooms in flushes through the summer and is vigorous). "Lundy Lane Yellow" is also heavily virused and is a very vigorous rose on its own roots, especially for a Pernetiana -- reaches 7' tall every summer after being cut back by half every winter, very good grower. Maybe, as Kim said, the virus is keeping these from taking over the garden :-).

That well could be, Catspa. And, since they haven't endured real "cold", they haven't been sufficiently weakened to the point of the cold taking them out. If the variety is vigorous, the strain and/or viral load aren't too severe and they've found at least the threshold of what they need to survive, many can live very long lives infected. But, all the variables have to be right for that to work. It's exciting more known indexed plants are being discovered and distributed!

I should probably have my hand slapped for not disbudding my JH, but since I didn't I may as well share his baby pictures. They're pretty now but I look forward to getting those fluffy stuffed blooms from a mature plant.

My Jesse Hildreth is doing wonderfully. I planted it about a year ago and it struggled through our hellish-summers. Once it cooled off, it has taken off. Full of blooms (I don't generally disbud). The picture doesn't do it justice; it's about 3 feet tall and seems like it is happy rose. I've been giving it some doses of alfalfa tea and fish fertilizer plus a lot of praise:) Planted in a good spot in my garden

The recent chilly mornings here have slowed these buds to almost a complete stop. Now that we have some rain, then sunshine, I’m hoping these buds will finally open! Pretty red sepals.

They're starting to open here ... first buds of a new flush.

I obediently disbudded a new bud yesterday. It hurt but I did it.

But you won't have to always. Mine is covered with buds, now.

I'll live vicariously through yours for now! :)

Slowest. Opening. Buds. Ever.

Finally one is staring to open. This rose must make a very nice, long lasting cut flower to open so very slowly. If picked at the right time. Maybe they open much faster in the heat?

Yes. Heat does speed them up. But, yes, they will open in a vase and last a long time.

True story, Cori Ann!

I’d love to see a picture, Jeri! Are your JH’s buds opened up? Lisa

No. They got rained on for two days, so they're just sort of hanging there.

Jesse Hildreth was starting to look weathered in the rain, so I cut the slowest opening bud I have ever seen and added it to some other cut flowers. After waiting sooooo long, I couldn’t let this bloom get ruined out in the elements.

It is the first bouquet from my yard this spring/late winter. Mostly early azaleas (Hino Crimson, Coral Bells and Lavender Formosa), a couple Magnolias (Genie and Saucer), a couple roses (Peggy Martin and Jesse Hildreth), two beautiful pacific coast irises (I think Night Editor, but might be Deepening Shadow or another), freesias and fragrant tea olive. I kind of just plopped them into a vase outside to save them from the next rain we have coming (yay!), but I like them.

Close up of Jesse in the middle there, inside. Another little bud peeking in the right corner too.

Beautiful, Cori Ann! Congratulations!

Thank you roseseek. :-) Hopefully in the warm water and warm house it will finally open!

You're welcome!

Beautiful! You're a natural! Nothing I ever " plop together" looks like that. That is a gift I do not possess. I keep thinking that I'll take a class in it. It's downright embarrassing!