Jeri - I have always loved this story. I remember when I first saw pictures of NOT Bloomfield Abundance in a famous rose book, looked at it, and thought to myself, "that is a Cecile Brunner". Not claiming any expertise - it was just so obvious. And, the elaborate, excruciating explanation of the differences between what they were calling BA and CB were funny, they were so sort of anxious. Sort of like the elaborate descriptions of the Emperor's new clothes...

Since what they were calling BA was proven by DNA analysis to be a sport of CB, some famous rose people (you can guess in what country) have still been arguing against the DNA evidence! One argument went something like: "my father grew this rose in his youth as BA, therefore it must be BA". Of course, it is probably true that what we now know is 'Spray Cecile Brunner' was grown there for decades & decades. That does not prove anything, except that it was mixed up in commerce with BA, and supplanted it, at a very early date. Since BA originated in the US, who is to say that the first plant(s) exported to other countries were not already the wrong rose?

I was delighted when the REAL BA was found. I looked on HMF, and it shows 4 pages of nurseries selling this rose. This certainly seems unlikely. More likely that most of them are selling 'Spray Cecile Brunner' under the wrong name. Do you which, if any, nurseries are selling the true BA? I think I need to get one. I have a clone (it tip rooted all by itself as the ancient mother plant was dying) of our 100+ yr old huge CB still growing in my garden (pics below - second one when it was not blooming, with part of my DH so you can see the scale). Maybe I will plant the true BA (if I can get it) right next to it!

Jackie

I feel so lucky. I was gifted a BA last Fall and managed to keep it alive all winter. It's putting on growth now and ready for a bigger pot. I wonder what culture she requires and if she's hardy enough to be planted out in my zone. I hope others who grow her pipe in.

I'm waiting (impatiently!) for BA to be back in stock at Reverence for Roses. They trace their clone back to Fred's plant, so it's the correct one. Like Jackie, I've always known the one previously in commerce wasn't correct, even before I read in multiple places that "the original is probably lost", and before I grew Not-BA next to spray CB. Gee...how could anyone reconcile CB with the description of BA? Well, it IS pink...

By the way, both of my spray CB were martyrs to RRV, and I have no intention of replacing them. Was it Paul, or Kim, who said the dried blooms looked like brown tissue strung on a mass of coat hangers? Very apt description! lol

John, I was just going to suggest A Reverence For Roses. I had an idea that she had the right one. Jackie -- I think I'd put my name on her list (if I was not fortunate enough to have it already).

BTW, I photographed the plant in the Sacramento City Cemetery, and it looks SO much like the 1926 photos of the original, that I really have no doubt. (Tho I have also been entertained by the silly arguments against it.)

Thank you! I will call Reverence for Roses and see if I can get on their list.

Would this not be a good rose for the Sacramento Cemetery Rose Garden to sell next year at Open Garden?

Jackie

Does anyone think that the Wichurana in her background would help her hardiness?

Best of luck, Jackie. I'm sure BA will do better in your garden than in mine, but I wannnnnnnnt one, lol.

John

Reverence For Roses web site has her cold hardiness zone as 6b.

Jackie

Jackie -- I think it would be a great choice for next year's sale. The plant is probably big enough, now.

Jackie, I was just checking around on a whim, and right now Rose Petals has BA in stock. I'm not as confident in the provenance of their clone, but the photo looks right. You might inquire where they got theirs. I'd do it, but it will have to wait until tomorrow...it's almost midnight here and I'm heading for a shower and bed, lol.

John

That was Paul who made the oh-so-apt coat hanger remark. Ha, ha! Forensic Files should air an episode about rose DNA. :-). Carol

John and Malcolm - thanks so much! I will check on Rose Petals right now.

Jackie

Thanks, Malcolm! I knew the photo at Rose Petals looked correct, but it's nice to have it confirmed.

John

HA! I called Rose Petals, and they confirmed that their rose is the Fred Boutin one, and are shipping me one Monday which is supposed to be here on Thursday! Of course, given that it is in a gallon pot, and is being shipped from FLA to CALIF, the shipping is $$$$$ ($58, to be exact, plus $7 for the rose), but it is worth it to me to get this rare and previously lost rose. Thanks to everyone who helped enable me!

Jackie

Yay! Congrats, Jackie. I know what it's like, since I recently paid a premium price for Prairie Peace. But it's satisfying to finally have something you've wanted for so long, isn't it?

I'm tickled pink that I could tempt someone to go for this rare beauty,

Jeri - you are the champion enabler! Also, I have the impression that you, like me, are a collector of rare roses more than a designer of gardens. I have no idea where I am going to put BA, of course. Any thoughts on its growth habit?

Jackie

Go look at the HMF page, at the photos:
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.17020&tab=36

There's an image there from MERBEAR, in Fair Oaks, CA ... I think that may be the lady who is a Capt. Thos. descendant. Her plant is really well-grown.

Thanks, Jeri. That is a great photo of a great plant. I'm still shaking my head over how this gorgeous rose ever got confused with spray CB.

You guys are making me really nervous about growing this plant. It seems I do worst with those I care about most.

Thanks Jeri - that is perfect. Not too big in a warm climate, so I think I know where to put it. When I get roses and cannot figure out where to put them, they have ended up in huge pots for the "meanwhile", but all of those I have are STILL in pots, and I did not want to put BA in a pot.

It is amazing how much this plant looks like the old photos and paintings of BA. I still have a theory that the two roses got mixed up a LONG time ago, either in the US or in the UK. I am tending to guess the US, because that would explain how the wrong rose was grown for so long by so many nurseries in UK as well as the US.

Jackie

I think Jackie is right. But also keep in mind that this rose can have some spotty foliage. The blooms are always lovely, but in the wrong place/climate, that could be a problem. That might have cost it some devotees.