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subk3

How do I turn sub-soil into topsoil?

8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago

50 years ago the heavy clay soil on my farm was phosphate mined. This involves digging out several feet of "dirt" sifting out the phosphate and sticking some of the leftover dirt back--essentially destroying the top layer of topsoil and having it replaced with the subsoil.

Until I bought the place almost ten years ago it was baled for weedy hay. Since then we use it for grazing, so mow putting that organic matter back. A typical soil test will tell me very high in phosphate, high in potassium, needs nitrogen. Once every year to 18 months we apply nitrogen. (We get 50 inches a rain a year.)

The pastures seem to do mostly ok, I'm sure it helps that we carefully manage and never over graze, but there are spots that are better than others. The bad areas won't grow fescue or any other quality forage. The pastures in general are a mixed bag of grasses which I'm mostly happy with. There are places around the house where soil was again disturbed that don't grow much of anything. Trees don't flourish and have heavy lichen--the lichen itself is not a problem but its usually associated with a deficiency that is unknown to me.

For the last 4-5 years I've been spreading partially composted horse stall leavings on areas that are particularly bad. (We are talking acres here) Adding generous compost has been fabulous in my gardens--where I'm also careful to limit any additional P and K with fertilizers. But on the areas closer to the house? Well, there is some improvement, but at this rate I'll be dead before I can grow fescue there.

So the questions are 1) What can I do to speed up the process? 2) Do you think this is an issue that is more that just a lack of organic matter? 3) What do I need to be looking at on soil tests other than PKN since those seem to be addressed? 4) Does anybody know much about tree lichen as I assume the problem is related?

Comments (10)

  • 8 years ago

    What klem1 is describing is the Cooperative Extension program, sponsored by land grant universities. Every county in the nation has one. At one time, this used to be a go-to source for soil testing and soil issues, however over the years, fewer and fewer of these extension services do soil testing and without a soil test, telling one how to "fix" a soil is impossible :-) So we need to resort to a professional soil testing lab in most cases now to get an accurate evaluation of the current conditions and what might be needed to improve it for whatever it is you may be growing. And it really doesn't matter much where that lab may be located.

    FWIW, a better soil lab (there are both good and bad ones) will generate a report that will provide ALL the necessary soil details: pH, % organic matter, CEC and a complete nutrient breakdown - not just NPK.

    Also, the development of lichen has nothing at all to do with soil conditions, as it has no soil requirements at all nor does it even need a plant to grow on. Lichens will grow on rocks or other masonry, wooden structures and even things like cars or motor homes that are parked for an extended period!! They just tend to colonize trees and shrubs that do not have a dense canopy structure as they do need lots of sunlight......sometimes - but not always - that can accompany a tree or shrub that may be in decline. But that is the ONLY relationship :-)

  • 8 years ago

    Where are you?

  • 8 years ago

    the way to turn sub-soil into top soil is through cover crops. deep rooted cover crops to be more specific. there are crops that will grow in poor soil and will get your cycle started. nitrogen is fungible, and will ramp up together with the carbon your crops put there. since you need mostly carbon, (other minerals being there), sorghum or relatives in summer, and cereal rye in winter, should be the main but not only species planted. they are also good forage, so you just need to grow stuff in one paddock and then let it be grazed. follow normal directions re: prussic acid.

  • 8 years ago

    I am in Middle Tn. I am familiar with the Coop Extension services which are offered through the University of Tennessee. That is who provides my soil analysis which routinely comes back with the only suggestion being to add nitrogen. On the few occasions I've spoken with someone (or once had one of their reps out to discuss this) all they wanted to talk about was cattle and getting my husband in their BeefMasters program--never mind that he's the suit who goes into town everyday to work and I'm the one running the farm or that our plans were to specifically run an equine operation not a cattle one. I suspect you're right that someone somewhere in the program has the answers I'm looking for--so far I haven't found that person.

  • 8 years ago

    That's such a shame but becoming increasingly the norm for agencys put in place to serve citizens. Of the three counties my family own property in,county agents attend events concurning a wide interest and are always easy to contact.

  • 8 years ago

    Given the information you provide, first question i would have is pH, second question would be drainage. Then we'd get into everything else.


    You the only one in the area with this kind of issue? If not, what do others do?


    Lichen is a red herring as far as the direction of your initial question.


    Extension can be good, it can also be hit or miss. I would probably also be looking at something like crop production services, or whatever they are called now. Really, you are looking for a professional agronomist. Whether employed by extension or someone else, that's what you are looking for. It could be through a local co-op.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I'm in E. Tn. When you had your soils sent out, did they do pH and organic matter tests? The last time I checked (which was just last year,) they had made changes in the way they tier the testing. It was like $15 for a basic test, and another $15 for an advanced test (which required another sample box.) I didn't call the agent back, but it wasn't exactly clear in the paperwork about what you get (outside of nutrition analysis) with the first test. One paper said that you get pH also, and another paper said that pH and organic matter were in the second test. I decided not to get the test, so I didn't call to have that straightened out.

    However, in your case, that's the route to go. Call your agent. Don't worry about getting them out there, just ask about the testing, and have them send you the boxes. You're going to want pH and organic matter. But... really, if your land had been grazed in the past like many of the areas around here, they were badly over-grazed. And that mining you mentioned surely didn't help matters. The test has a form to fill out, and you can let them know what usage you have planned for the acreage - you've probably already done that.

    All that said, if it's anything like this area, you basically need organic matter, and a lot of it. Don't worry so much about those who give you percentage of OM for soils... here in Tn. we are hot and wet. Organic matter decomposes extremely quickly here. You can't even just leave it on the surface and wait for the soil life to incorporate it, you need to get it under ground, into at least the top 8". The way you do that is to turn everything you can under, and then do as glib suggests, choose appropriate cover crops. Don't worry, there's little chance of exceeding OM percentage. It will come down to just practicality of how much you can work in long before you have too much organic matter. After the soil has recovered some, then you can start managing OM levels. At least that's what I would suggest.

  • 8 years ago

    >> That is who provides my soil analysis which routinely comes back with the only suggestion being to add nitrogen.

    OP has already had soil tested 'routinely' so it may be more useful for us to look at those results than have it tested yet again.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Agreed. It's just that the UT Ext. service here in Tn. has changed the tiers they use for basic, and progressively advanced tests. Just last year the new paper work given to me by the Ag. Agent had conflicting info. One paper said that pH was included in the basic test, but the 'check box' form for which you request the specific tests to be done by the lab included both pH and organic matter in the second tier (an 'advanced' test requiring a second box of soil, and an additional $15,)

    The Op may have had that advance test done, and they may have not had it done. Additionally, in large acre properties (the gist I get from the description) pH and organic matter can vary quite a bit.

    So... lol... subk3, did the past tests include pH and OM analysis, and would you describe the property as having a consistent landscape and soil structure, or is it like many areas of Tn. and vary wildly even within a small lot? Middle Tn. is a bit different than here in E. Tn. Here, we are in the hills and hollers. Those from the flatter areas of the U.S. might be amazed at the radical changes in pH.