Such a lovely yellow. And these days I find thornless a most admirable trait. I see all the photos on HMF are yours, Kim's or tearose's making it a very highly recommended rose. Haven't ventured to using Florida vendors yet but they seem to be the only source for many of the treasures you post. Maybe some day.......

Mary, I understand. And I do understand about the cost of FL vendors for us out here. If you ever want cuttings, feel free to ask.

Jeri - I had not noticed the possibility of 'George Elder' before. I looked at it on HMF, and the buds, leaves, and hips certainly resemble SSY. However, the leaves and buds also closely resemble 'Leonie Lamesch'. Also, there are several pictures of George Elder on HMF which show pink blooms, or blooms with pink on them. In the many years I have grown SSY, I have NEVER seen a bloom with any amount of pink on it. Perhaps GE is related to SSY - certainly it resembles it.

Above is a pic of my mature SSY.

Jackie

I meant to say the hips of GE also closely resemble those of both Leonie Lamesch and SSY.

Jackie

If this rose were taller I'd consider it since the only yellow rose I have is Charles Darwin and the rabbits ate its only opening bud yesterday. On the other hand its smoothness might be a minus in my garden since I notice that my two bushes of Wild Edric, which are rugosas and therefore fiercely armed, seem to be the only roses that have been left alone by my hungry lagomorphs.

My oldest one is about 3 1/2 - 4 ft tall and wide.

Jackie

Darn, that's not tall enough. Everything grows like gangbusters in your garden, Jackie, so for me it might be 2-3 feet if I'm lucky.

Jackie:

"I had not noticed the possibility of 'George Elder' before. I looked at it on HMF, and the buds, leaves, and hips certainly resemble SSY. However, the leaves and buds also closely resemble 'Leonie Lamesch'. Also, there are several pictures of George Elder on HMF which show pink blooms, or blooms with pink on them. In the many years I have grown SSY, I have NEVER seen a bloom with any amount of pink on it. Perhaps GE is related to SSY - certainly it resembles it."

The pinkish blooms under 'George Elger' on HMF are misidentified, and I commented as such on there. Those roses are either 'Perle d'Or' or 'Mme Jules Thibaud', and should be ignored. Attention should be paid to the Australian pictures, and these from way back when.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.304469

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.286461

And if you look through the references, 'George Elger' was listed within nurseries in the US, including Francis E. Lester's book/catalog titled Roses of Monterey: a book for rose lovers in 1930.

On the other hand, references for 'Eugenie Lamesch' include descriptions such as "flowers ochre-yellow and bright yellow, shaded pink..." and "ochre-yellow with pink edge" and "The flowers are clear-yellow edged with rose". And the few photos posted for 'Eugenie Lamesch' all show this pinkish color on unfurled blooms. So, if you "have NEVER seen a bloom with any amount of pink on it" then it couldn't be 'Eugenie Lamesch'.

To me, 'George Elger' is more of a match for "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow" -- old pictures seem the same, the plant was sold in the US including Texas and California into the 20th Century, and photos of the plant in Australia seem identical.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher - thank you for clearing up the pink photos issue! That makes George Elger certainly a candidate. Does anyone know if it is available anywhere (I don't think Australia counts as a place we could get it from, unfortunately - does not the US still have a ban on roses from Australia?). At least it appears to be alive there and in France? It is not quite "lost" yet? I would love to get my hands on one to grow next to SSY.

Just to be clear, when I said I had never seen pink on SSY, I did not count what I see as the RED edges on the buds & some opening blooms - that is on SSY, and appears in pictures of both George Elger and Eugenie Lamesch. I am intrigued that you found GE in that book by Francis Lester - I will have to look for that. I do not have a horse in this race, and certainly think SSY might be GE. The garden I found it in was started in the 1930s, and the original plant was quite old (its main trunk was 4-5 inches in diameter, and it was taller than I am). Here is a picture of the garden right around the time when I got my cutting (I did not take this photo - the Planning Dept of our town kindly dug it out of their files for me - they had to document this little cottage before it was torn down). SSY is the tall bush on the left right up to the front porch. Ignore the large pink rose in front of SSY - there were still a lot of roses blooming in that garden, even after the house had been vacant for the several years it took the city to OK its demolition. Our climate is very benign for roses!

Jackie

Thanks for the offer Jeri. I really need to work on rooting viable plants. I was only ever able to get a plant by air layering with a little pot around the 'wound'. and that was 1 out 3 attempts. All my attempts at cuttings turned into dead sticks. You said something before about the fall - is that when you start your cuttings? I'll never improve if I never try so I guess I should give it a go. And only if you have them to spare - I know some plants can be stingy and I don't want to waste something precious - though to my uneducated eye SSY doesn't look to be that way.

SSY is NOT stingy!

I could not get hold of the Lester book (or catalogue) "Roses of Monterey", but I did find on Amazon, a Classic Reprint Series by Forgotten Books of Lester's "A Complete List of Out Fine Rose Bushes for the Season 1929-30". Yes, it lists 'Geaorge Elger' as a polyantha "strong grower, bright yellow'. I suspect it was not further described because it was in the first book.

Lester roses were definitely available around here. In our same town as the little cottage where I found SSY, is the West End Nursery, which turns out is the oldest continuously operating nursery in CA! So, it would not have been unusual for them to have Lester roses in their stock in the 1930s.

I, as many of you know, inherited some rare and one lost old rose when we moved into our house. However, looking at the literature, those roses (mostly old teas) were not rare at all when we think they were planted by my DH's ancestors- they were in fashion, and popular, and likely to be carried at the West End Nursery. My DH's great grandparents and grandparents were gardeners, but I am willing to bet they got their garden plants locally, either from a nursery or from friends or neighbors.

A round about way of saying that I think George Elger is going up on the list of ID's for SSY. The one thing that I find curious and bothering - I have not found any reference to either it or Eugenie Lamesch which mentions the bush being thornless, and all of my SSY bushes are completely, absolutely without even one thorn. Perhaps people in the late 19th and very early 20th century did not care about thorns?

Jackie

JACKIE SAID: " Perhaps people in the late 19th and very early 20th century did not care about thorns? "

*** Jackie -- think you might have hit on something there.

When I am asked if a particular cultivar has thorns, my usual response is something along the lines of -- "I'll go look and see." Which is to say that it is not a characteristic I think about a lot.

Hmm.. well, it makes it harder, since that is one characteristic which is uncommon. Along those lines, a few years ago I communicated with a person who was doing research on Lambert roses at Sangerhausen. He said that they did not have Eugenie Lamesch, but that Lambert had written about it that it only had a few "spines" lower down on the canes. This is an exact description of how my Leonie Lamesch has thorns - just a few large ones on the lower half of the canes.

On the other hand, HMF cites an apple scent from EL, and SSY has that too.

I need (wrong word - just want to satisfy my curiosity) to find out more about George Elger. Will start another thread about it.

Jackie

I was at the respository at Ruston's Roses in Australia a couple of years ago - wish I had known to look at the rose there and study it to compare. I see a comment by Margaret Furness that there were no obvious prickles on the one there. One of her photos show a lot of hips - does SSY develop similar ones? I haven't noticed them on our cemetery plant - maybe we deadhead it too diligently. We might be able to get the Aussies to do a field report of GE so that we could compare it further. I do agree that the fact that GE was in commerce at the right time makes it a likely candidate. The photos on HMF seem to show two different roses - the one in Europe looks like Perle d'Or to me, with characteristic strappy petals.

I certainly don't deadhead diligently, and I don't notice hips on SSY.

Yes, my mature SSY definitely sets hips - first they are greenish (first pic below, lower left), then they turn brown (second pic)

Jackie

Anita - I forgot to say, any info or more pics of GE, especially whether it has any prickles, would be great!

Jackie

Margaret Furness said that there were no obvious prickles on GE in comments on HMF, and also posted a photo of hips which you can compare with yours. I can follow up with the Aussies about more photos and info. I am going back this year but won't be going to the repository.

Thanks Anita - looking forward to what you get further from the Aussies.

Jackie

I did look at the pics of hips of GE on HMF - yes, they look like the ones on my SSY - first green, then turning brown.

Jackie

Someone in AUS (see my George Elger thread) checked with the lady in AUS who posted the pics of GE which DO look like SSY, and she says as far as she knows that GE does not have any prickles. She gave the name of 2 gardens where it grows there - I will check with them. So fun to try and find out more, even if useless.

Jackie

Jackie what are the gardens?

The David Ruston Rose Centre in Renmark, and the Victoria State Rose Garden in Werribee. She said she had not seen the GE at Ruston's for a couple of years, and that she had just sent a plant to Werribee a couple of months ago.

Jackie

Who was that - Margaret Furness? I won't be in Werribee this trip....

Yes, Margaret Furness. It does appear that George Elger exists in Australia. I am ordering Peter Schneider's Combined Rose List next to see if it is on there. I would love to get a plant of GE to grow next to my SSY. Margaret said the plant at Ruston's originally came from the Trewallyn nursery in Queensland, but they do not have it listed anymore. I sent them a message asking if they had any info in their files re where they got it, or its parentage. I understand that it is still illegal to import roses from Australia - do you know if that is true?

Jackie

Jackie, I'm popping onto this thread because Jeri just posted new pics of her "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow", and that led me to checking the 'George Elger' page on HelpMeFind again. I noticed that there are a few more pics added. Take a look, also, at the oldest reference -- it's in French. I used Google Translate to convert it to English, which I'm adding below.

Messrs. Turbat et C °, horticulturalists in Orleans, sell in the fall of 1912: GEORGE ELGER (Multiflore or Polyantha dwarf going up). Very floriferous variety, with erect growth, smooth wood, reddish green, dark green foliage, shiny above, reddish brown below, flowers in large corymbs, coppery golden yellow turning to light yellow with blooming, golden yellow buttons. The most yellow of the rising Polyanthas. Could be called “W. A. Richardson dwarf ”. Lends itself admirably to forcing; variety of great future for culture in pots and for beds.

I bolded the part I thought would be of interest to you. And if anyone wants to test SSY genetically, we know that GE is listed as the seed-parent of the Polyantha 'Sunshine', which we still have in this country.

:-)

~Christopher