Have you looked at the Marvin Ultimates? They are usually a bit more that the A Series but in my opinion a better unit all the way around.

I'm in the process of having him get me an estimate on the integrity all Ultrex as we're not married to having wood interiors. Problem is he has never used them and the closest dealer is over 50 minutes from here

The Integrity Wood Ultrex is a nicer looking window than the All Ultrex in most pros opinion. But still a good window.

Integrity is available with a stainable or paintable pine wood interior.

I considered getting Eagle windows when I was still thinking about replacing my Pella bay window in the kitchen. I thought they looked very high-end and were quite lovely. They are very pricey. I was told that they are used extensively in historic restoration work in New England, in particular. I saw them in a lovely old historic house here, that due to it's proximity to railroad tracks will never again be a private home, has been turned into an Eagle showroom and also a local custom-made, very high end, kitchen cabinet showroom. They were beautiful and the options were unlimited. Nearly all windows need the glass upgrade if one wants more energy efficiency.

I ended up not getting them due to VERY high cost and just had my painter's nephew aluminum-clad my existing Pella bay - solve my rot problem cheaply!

My neighbor has red E Series windows. We recently had the A Series installed our new construction. According to the dealer, the wide range in color choices on the E is a draw for some people.

Todd, I haven't found many of the big names able to compete with the Imperial LS from a numbers standpoint. It's definitely still one of my first choices, but I will have to trim out in Azek or something similar, and then either go with their sliders instead of my french patio doors, or just mismatch.

As a side note, no one ever mentioned the A Series while we were there. Assuming they are even more than the equivalent E series just with less customization and Fibrex exterior?

[This is a discussion of air infiltration testing and ratings for Marvin and Anderson.[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/marvin-cant-find-air-infiltration-specs-dsvw-vd~2644787) Marvin meets the code requirements. AAMA/NWWDA 101/I.S.2-97 Structural Performance Testing pass/fail standard of .3 CFM/s.f. You may find a vinyl window with a better rating when manufactured. The problem is vinyl when compared to fiberglass will not be able to retain that rating over time. Vinyl will expand and contract in a way that leads to a increase in air infiltration and/or failure over time. Sometimes that time frame is short. Fiberglass does not do that.

As Dan stated, take those "performance" numbers with a grain of salt. It's like comparing cars that get 25.2 mpg with ones that get 25.7 mpg. Old wood windows are always too tight. Old plastic windows are always too loose...

Mgh, if you want a real wood interior in most cases (Marvin, andersen, etc) you are going to sacrifice performance for aesthetics. That's just the name of the game unless you go to some of the higher end wood/fiberglass stuff from north of the border.

As far as the claims that vinyl window air leakage ratings are of little value and that they will automatically degrade at a higher rate than other materials, that is bad information. I sell/install/service windows of every material and have for years, and in my experience there is relative consistency, with the exception that if anything, an organic material like wood tends to degrade faster. Fiberglass and vinyl are both pretty consistent in my anecdotal observations. At the end of the day, a quality, well engineered window is a well engineered window, regardless of the material. I'd be interested to see data to support otherwise.

Even the $99 menards windows pass that air infiltration number.

There is no doubt that PVC expands more than other window materials, that’s just science. Weather or not it expands enough to effect the air infiltration ratings may or may not be true, I have never seen a report or test to actually show this.

Totally agreed that vinyl expands and contracts more. The real questions are:

1) Doesn't the engineering of the product take that into consideration? I'd say yes, otherwise we'd have some pretty unhappy clients calling in depending on the temperature. Significantly more weatherstripping on most vinyl windows, and other design features in the sash to frame interface that are different.

2) Does the rate of expansion/contraction become more profound over time as suggested by the poster above? Again, I've never seen any evidence of that, nor does it sound logical, at least not to a level that would affect performance.

The expansion and contraction of vinyl is dramatically overstated.

In a 100 degree swing, a 6' lineal of thin vinyl (i.e. heavier mil thickness vinyl will not move nearly as much) will expand/contract less than the thickness of a nickel.

Thanks everyone. Good things to consider.

i I think us contractors should pool are money and get our own air test done and make bets on the side to recoup the cost of those confident. I’ll put in $1000 to get things going!

We went with the A Series because we wanted a black exterior and were worried about how well black vinyl would hold up over time.

Somehow these magic vinyl windows that are nearly as high in quality as fiberglass don't seem to get installed in the homes of people I know. The windows their builders and replacement companies put in are done after 10 years or so. I guess it's like trying to sell any high quality version of a product with a rep for low quality. How are you going to know. You can't ever take a sales guy's word. We know that.

Obviously you do not know what products were installed in these home nor have you seen a higher quality vinyl product. Don’t be naive and think a low end Wood product would be in the same place in 10 years.

My posts(if you had read them) have been regarding fiberglass like Integrity or Inline.Here's the Inline site. I've not seen any long lasting high quality vinyl windows yet. I'll keep looking.

I don’t remember reading your post. You are comparing these Windows to builder grade vinyl windows . It doesn’t make much sense to compare a low volume high priced window like Inline to whatever vunyl product that you have failed to name in other peoples house you know. The Marvin all Ultrex is not what I would call a high quality product and the Wood Ultrex is at a completely different price point .

Seeing as a window from InLine would probably 5X as compared to a builder's grade vinyl window that is normally used in track construction, I don't think it is really too surprising that it might be a bit better product.

What vinyl windows were used in the homes that you anecdotally were referencing?

You guys are forgetting the exchange rate in favor of the dollar. My point is it doesn't matter what vinyl window you get. You won't know it's going to last because it's impossible to tell one from another because they all come with the same sales puffery. You may say this one is certainly high quality but those are merely words on the internet. Just like your words relating to Marvin Integrity or Infinity Ultrex. Those were installed in a friends home. They continue to be faultless because of the fiberglass construction.

The only sales puffery here is about fiberglass sir, as though being made of fiberglass guarantees a good product. It doesn’t. Not by a long shot. I’m glad to heat that your friend has had Marvin fiberglass windows installed for a while and they are working well. Most of the guys that comment around here have a pretty good opinion of that product, with the only downsides being looks on the all ultrEx, and middling performacne ratings. That product is not faultless because of all fiberglass construction. Its a good product because it’s well designed and constructed. Period. There are many vinyl windows that are as well. Sure if u look at 10 white vinyl window displays it may be hard to tell the difference between great and terrible products, but I assure you it is there. Just requires a deeper look. Sorry that you (or your friends) had a bad experience with some vinyl windows. I wouldn’t not buy a car with an internal combustion engine based on owning an 86 Chevy citation.

I guess the question here is whether vinyl windows CAN be a good choice based on data, as well as the opinion of a group of professionals with over 100 Years of combined experience selling all kinds of windows, OR if they aren’t and only fiberglass good based on the experience of Dan and his friend that has had fiberglass windows installed for an unknown length of time

I've had a few conversations with folks who do leak sealing using a blower door. They've said that vinyl does not appear to hold up well and that older vinyl windows seem to be much more leaky than older wood, fiberglass or other and that they know that they will not be able to achieve a very low ACH50 in a house with vinyl windows.

They agreed though that this could be as much a design as materials issue and that windows using vinyl do not seem built as well as some others and that it may be possible to build a really good vinyl window.

In their experience from what they commonly see around the upper midwest; Optiwin & Intus are overwhelmingly the best. Zola is next followed by Loewen and then Marvin, Anderson and Pella at the bottom. They also mentioned Fibertech but said that they've only encountered these once so aren't sure how representative that is.

Casement/Awning are better than double-hung but a good double-hung is much better than a poor casement.

Glazing (2 vs 3) has little to zero effect on air infiltration.

Poor installation is massively more common than poor windows. A poor window installed properly will beat a great window installed poorly.

Their thoughts; avoid Pella & Anderson. Marvin can be the best value though Loewen is likely worth the extra cost. If energy efficiency is really important then Zola, Intus and Optiwin are the ticket. In a house with few windows then double glaze is good enough but with a lot of windows triple is worth it.

It seems odd that those knocking vinyl don’t know the brand names, and lump them all together.Even more odd is they know the brand name of all the wood and fiberglass windows, even the most obscure of names that are sold in very Low numbers..

Intus is a vinyl product.

knowing Marvin’s poor air infiltration numbers, it is interesting that Marvin performs well and Andersen does not,

Odd commentary indeed. Sounds like a fair amount of third party information between opa and Dan. Fortunately, amongst the regular contributors here we have some folks that are certified in home performace disciplines like BPI and resnet, and have a whole bunch of experience FIRST hand doing blower door testing and diagnosis. The statements made by opa are bizarre and inconsistent with my own experience in this area.

1) window performance is deemphazized by most in the home performance community. Not that it isn’t important, but it’s often further down the list of issues in need of work on the average home. Frankly, it is VERY easy to reach a level of tightness where added mechanical ventilation is needed even with crappy windows.

2) the list of windows given by opa are very good for the most part, but most are not readily, easily, or cost effectively available to many people.

3) the comment was made about how said windows “hold up”. If find it extremely unlikely that your energy analyst friends are testing 10-20 year old Zola and Intus Windows with any regularity. If they are testing new windows (more likely), then I’m not sure how one could assess them as “holding up better”.

Again, those are good windows, but the commentary seems intended to establish a narrative here as opposed to reporting data, even if from a third party.

I do agree however with some of the other sentiments expressed: of course triple pane glazing hasn’t little effect on air leakage (although it has plenty effect on energy loss), installation is indeed critically important to window performance, and casements are generally tighter with their compression Seal as opposed to dh’s or sliders. The latter can be very good, but product quality is even more important.

I was simply passing on what I've been told by different and fairly knowledgable folks.

As to touting BPI cert, most of the BPI folks I've talked to knew how to spout some verbiage and how to do some performance tests. They had no clue of why something should be done or what to do when they encountered something that didn't fit exactly to the limited box they'd been taught. That's not to say that all BPI people are like that, and I know one who is very knowledgable, but that has been my experience.

As to my statements being bizarre and inconsistent. Can you tell me in what way? To your points; 1) I made no statement about windows being emphasized over anything else. If you didn't notice, this thread is specifically about windows though. I also noted that they all said that installation was a bigger culprit than the windows themselves and that triple glaze are likely not worth it unless windows are a significant bit of the structure. 2) These windows may not be available in Home Depot but they are not at all unusual in homes being built in our area. 3) These were their general impressions from doing a wide variety of homes from older homes being remodeled to new homes being built. This is not intended to be a fully detailed and documented research report, just a forum post. So again, what specifically do you disagree with about what I said?

"Frankly, it is VERY easy to reach a level of tightness where added mechanical ventilation is needed even with crappy windows."

I agree, but that is a quite low bar. I think even our lowest quality production builders are doing that. The house we built in 1988 was 3.2 ACH50 IIRC. There is also a solid argument that mechanical ventilation is beneficial regardless of tightness to the extent that it lessens air being sucked in to wall cavities. IAC, the conversations I was referencing were aiming for 0.8-1.5.

opaone, my primary disagreement is with your overall assertion that vinyl windows "do not hold up", and the evidence that you supported it with which has some pretty big holes.

1) You cited a few manufacturers as "better", yet two of those (Zola and Intus) make vinyl windows (in addition to others). Further, I'd stand by my assertion that these are not commonly used by the general home building or remodeling population. Referencing Home Depot is a bit extreme, as you won't walk into a building supply house in most markets and find these there either, which is where most builder-sourced windows are purchased. Perhaps you are involved in a community of builders that places a high emphasis on efficiency. Kudos to that. I'd hope that we can agree that while this may be trending in the right direction, the vast majority of builders (including high end homes) typically use the windows as an area to either skimp, or the install a "name" window. Typical consumers building a home either think any new window will be fine and would rather spend that allowance on upgraded cabinets, OR if they care, they think that Pella, Andersen, and Marvin are where quality windows start and end... in error of course.

2) Your assertion that vinyl windows "don't hold up", doesn't hold up. It is likely based on the builder grade variety discussed. CHEAP, poor quality windows don't hold up. Wood, vinyl, fiberglass. Bad windows are bad windows. Many are due for replacement after 10 years, sometimes even less. I've personally seen above average to great vinyl windows in excellent condition after 20-30 years. Furthermore, as I expressed earlier, I don't believe that you have associates that are running blower door tests on 10-15 year old Zola and Intus windows to allow for the "holding up" comparison that you have suggested. Its illogical. They have not been installed with any regularity for that long, and anyone that would have installed those in the first place likely built the home with high efficiency in mind, and would not be in need of blower door analysis 10 years later.

3) You specifically stated, "...they know that they will not be able to achieve a very low ACH50 in a house with vinyl windows". This is patently false, which you later seemed to agree with me about.

4) Not sure where you are going with the attempt to discredit certification in the Home Performance industry. The theory behind the numbers is very much a part of the curriculum. Are there guys that get certified and then work in a narrow scope of the industry (government subsidized programs come to mind) where bureaucracy taints the science? Sure. Its pretty silly though to undermine the certification though. Would you take you car to a mechanic that is not ASE certified? Have your furnace replaced by an HVAC guy that is not licensed and certified? An electrician? ... While certification is far from an "end-all, be-all" , it is a baseline that should at worst guarantee safety which is a very valid concern when sealing up homes. This may in fact be the biggest difference between a certified professional and the guy that can do a great job sealing a home tight as a drum, but has no clue that the water heater is no longer drafting,

I think that we probably agree on far more than we disagree on opaone, but trashing all vinyl windows as inefficient is not accurate, and misrepresenting the views of the building science/home performance community (even if only implied) TO members past or present of said community is poor form.

Hello all! We have a house built in the 1970s and the rooms have small picture windows that have draft in the winter and get completely condensed. We would need recommendation of which windows to use prioritizing the best buy in performance. Our town in MN gets to -30 F in the winter. The basement came with vinyl windows of a brand called Champion that I never heard about, is it any good? It is good at keeping the noise out and opening smoothly. I would really like your opinions thank you !

The draw to the E Series is the extruded (as opposed to thinner roll form) aluminum clad exterior. In this sense, they are comparable to Marvin Ultimates which also have extruded aluminum clad. They are superior to the 400 Series (Tilt & Wash) because while the 400 has a vinyl clad frame, the exterior of the sash is a thick latex paint that will never hold up as long as the extruded aluminum clad exterior. Most people are under the impression the 400 series is a fully vinyl clad exterior, including contractors, but they are mistaken. There is a slim chance you're actually looking at the 400 Series Woodwright. This is a fully cladded exterior with Andersen's proprietary Fibrex. This is much more comparable to the E-Series.