Also - measurement of shower is about 36x41. the drain is not centered because of a beam below it. Does this mean custom pan? Any recommendations?

What makes youthink the walls above 2 rows of tiles are any better? If the floor/pan was installed that poorly, and I am sorry for repeating but Gut. Demo. All. New. Now. All you are doing is postponing the inevitable. What happens in 6 months when you need to redo the walls? How is the new tiler proposing to tie in a waterproofing system? How will you tie in a waterproofing system when the walls need to be redone?

Sorry - as you can tell I am less than knowledgeable in this area. I did not think of the question you posed. The liner typically goes up 1-2 rows high in the shower, right? Again, I know nothing about this but assumed he would be pulling the old liner out and putting in a new one. I am guessing it’s not that simple. If only

2K is less than 1/3 of what a properly waterproofed tile shower will cost. There is nothing to be saved there. Be very very careful about who you hire, or you may just get more of the same.

Thank you all. One last question - again, excuse my lack of knowledge here. Shower pans do fail and when they do they need to be replaced. Is it always a gut and redo or is that the suggestion here becaise there is an assumption that the rest of the work behind the walls is poor too and not waterproofed? In other words, when’ A shower pain fails, I assume people do just replace the liner and pan with taking a row of wall tiles out rather than gutting the entire Thing? Or am I completely wrong there? Additionally, would a not tiled floor/pan in the shower be a better bet?

The shower “pan” isn’t a tray. It’s more of a liner combined with a layered method of waterproofing the bathroom on the basis that water flows downhill. The same process applies to a shingle roof where the higher singles overlap the lower shingles. If the lower shingles overlapped the higher shingles, then you’ve got a passageway for water to get in under the shingles.
There are several layers in a bathroom. The tile is the decorative top layer. The liner is the protective, waterproof layer and the backer board is the base foundation on which it’s built (not considering the wall framing). The tiles do the main job of directing water to the drain, but they can’t capture everything. The liner is the insurance, but even that can have little issues. There are high humidity levels and large temperature swings in the bathroom and water has a way of creeping into everything and going where you don’t want it to get. Each layer can get a little wet, but the strategy is to keep water moving downhill and not have it captured anywhere where it can soak in and do damage. Ideally, in a bathroom, you’re wanting water always flowing past overlaps and not having access to get underneath the various layers.
When you only take the waterproofing up two layers of wall tile, you’re now introducing a break that water coming down the wall will access to get in behind the liner. It’s not a matter of if, but when.
The bulk of the work is being done already. If you can afford to get the entire shower waterproofed now, then that is the recommendation of everyone here. The repercussions of a partly done job are not worth considering unless you’re planning on demolishing the shower again in the near future. Just do it properly and get the entire shower done. It’s money well spent.

Thank you again. Tony I really appreciate the explanation, along with everyone else’s input. No one who came over mentioned gutting the entire shower - they only meantioned a new pan and removing 1-2 layers of wall tile so that is why I was a bit confused. It makes sense though what everyone is saying here. I will see the cost of a gut and if we can swing that.

Each situation varies. If you have one of this plastic, pre-formed shower stalls, or a glass surround, the application may vary. Ask your contractors lots if questions and get good explanations. The scary part (and it happens with nearly all renovations) is that your contractors can’t predict what is behind or beneath the tiles. They can guess, but it’s usually wrong. There are nearly always surprises. Try and establish a level of trust or faith with your chosen contractor and avoid those that just want to slap on a layer of grout and move on. Goo luck. Perhaps post some photos when done.

Thanks so much, Tony. Will do. I truly appreciate the guidance.

You want to rip this completely out. You want someone to be responsible for the entire install, with no finger pointing. As Tony explained, you can't patch something in and nobody would guarantee it if they did.

You can use a cast iron base and avoid some of the issues with building on-site.

You can also use the Schluter Systems base and curb.

I would avoid someone who wants to install the rubber liner, wood curb, etc. Unless they really know what they are doing it will leak.

There are lots of Youtube videos showing it done right. Watch a lot of videos so you know what to look for.

Thanks Jake. Donl the cast iron base and schluter bases come in custom sizes? my shower is about 36x41 and has an off center drain.

So the cast iron bases are not custom. If you follow the link you will see many sizes and configs - but they are not custom.

The Schluter bases can be trimmed I believe. The offset drain needs to be something you want to reconsider. Can you alter the drain location (to one end) or can you header off the joist that's in the way? That's something for a contractor to figure out - but keep an open mind.

Here's the thing to understand: wood isn't that stable - it swells when it gets wet and it contracts when it dries. Tile and grout doesn't respond well to the base under it moving. Part of the issue with your current installation is that you have wood curbs that have moved (probably because they have gotten wet) and so you see the big gaps around the tile.

If you can avoid using wood in your curb (even covered with a rubber membrane) you will be miles ahead.

I will ask about the drain and curb. Good suggestion re: rubber membrane. I presume that shouldn’t be much extra work. The membrane would be in addition to a new liner, right?

Very interesting stuff Jake! Ive never thought beyond the tile.

HU-766231998 :

I guess I wasn't clear: Building a base from wood and rubber membrane is what you want to avoid. Some very skilled people can do it well, but many can't.

If at all possible use a pre-cast iron base or a Schluter Systems base and curb or some other system that doesn't involve wood.

Okay - going to avoid the wood curb and go with a Schluter system or tile redi Pan. Any suggestions as to which is preferred?

Preferences are largely a regional choice sometimes. I usually use Schluter products because they are readily available from my supplier without paying additional shipping. Not familiar too much with the other you mentioned. I live in the Northwest and Schluter is popular here and usually stocked by multiple vendors.

There are many great manufacturers of waterproofing systems for tile showers. All of which can work as described if you follow the exact manufacturers specs on how to install properly.

I like the fact that Schluter has a vast library of training videos on their different products and they have a proven track record of success in use if installed properly. But others will have their preferences which is fine. Thank goodness we live in a world where you have choices. Good luck..

My vote would be Schluter system.

If you use the Redi Pan, be sure to use the flashing that was designed for it as well. Installation instructions show that you can install it without the flashing - but that's not at all a good idea. In general, waterproofing should not depend on caulk - and without the flashing you are depending on a bead of caulk to make things water tight.

The install video says that the flashing is aluminum (and it looks like it's not painted) - which should not be in direct contact with cement board because it will corrode. If you use the flashing, put a layer of Tyvek tape over the part that would be in contact with the hardi-board to prevent direct contact. There's been some discussion about how well this joint will perform with tile spanning it. There's likely to be some small amount of movement at this joint - and although it will remain waterproof, there's also a chance for the tile or grout to crack at that joint.

Also note that backer board used with the Redi Pan must be waterproof - so your typical hardi-board will need the seams taped with mesh tape and thinset and then the hardi-board (not the redi pan) will need to be coated with red guard or something similar.

I think that the Shluter systems installed by a qualified installer is going to be a more high quality product because they are providing the walls, base, etc and aren't relying on other products like red guard for a water tight system.

A detail note about the curb / floor connection outside the shower: Remember we said don't depend on caulk to make things waterproof. The Shluter curb is water proof, but water OUTSIDE the curb can penetrate the joint where the floor meets the curb. You want to be sure that you make that water tight by connecting the outside of the curb with your floor backer board using some of the Kirdi band and corners.

Note that you want a Schluter system trained installer. They should know these things, but by understanding the details you can know when something isn't right.

just wanted to chime in and say I too once found a mushroom growing in my bathroom! you are not alone. Lol....this was many years ago and we had just purchased a house that needed a lot of work. It was growing in rotted wood between the carpet (yes, carpet!) and tub. We gutted everything and found a lot of rot in the walls too. Definitely worth doing it all at once. you don't want to do anything to twice.

A couple of notes. Waterproofing Systems work great when the manufacturer instructions are followed. I will happily help folks with different systems. Tile Redi is the one system that I will tell folks not to use. As a professional I came across these bases a few times. I called their tech dept. as I always do with any product new to me. I inquired about the joint where wall board meets the top of the base and tile is bonded to both surfaces spanning the joint.. This is a movement joint that must be honored through the entire installation. They told me to follow TCNA details. (which is what I do and why I called) Asked which detail they followed. No answer. Final response was and I quote "it is what it is" Not what I'll base my reputation on.

@ Jake, There is no such thing as a Schluter certified installer. Folks that have attended a 2 day seminar can say they are factory trained although they may never have installed a piece of tile in their lives. Probably don't want to hire based on Schluter training. I've been to the class 1&2 multiple times and have installed there system successfully many times since it came out. I've used Ditra since '92' when it was in a straight line pattern not a waffle as it is today. There is a reason I switched to USG's shower system 3yrs ago. Hire by experience. Not based on attending a seminar. The following link is worth reposting.

https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/homeowners-guide-to-hiring-qualified-tile-installer

Yeah, as soon as I said "certified" I knew I shouldn't have. The point is you want someone who is trained using a system, knows what they are doing and this isn't their first time.

I don't have experience with the Redi pan but I was completely unimpressed by their video. Too many details that I could see would be a problem (like the bare aluminum flashing next to cement board) and joint movement

The USG system looks reasonable too. It's a complete system.

Jake, My comment was not to criticize you but to help homeowners weed through all the misleading info on the internet, YouTube, DIY shows & box stores. The link above was my only post as I felt it was a single source for the questions that need to be asked for ones own protection.

Creative Tile Eastern CT that's a great resource - thanks for posting it.

Okay so some of the shower is torn up. Looks like water was seeping into the curb for some time. And, the end wall tile was not waterproofed, rather just drywall, but the rest were Backer board. our contractor doesn’t seem to think black mold, rather water damage, mildew. Currently airing it out with bleach. Any thoughts or advice? (More will be torn out than already is)

So clearly this was half-assed - that's my very first thought.

You know you can't salvage any of this - right? Even if the other walls have tile backer I'll bet they were never waterproofed.

Tile over drywall in a shower?!? WTF?

Get it all torn out. The plywood under the base is probably rotten also. If you are lucky you can patch in the plywood without getting into your main floor much. You will need to remove the floor tile in front of the shower so you can waterproof the new curb to the tile backer on the floor.

Once it's out I'd mix up some bleach solution in a large spray bottle and wet everything that looks like mold down with it. Be sure to use a mask and turn on the bathroom fan.

Then let it all dry out - perhaps even put a box fan on it for a day or three.

Then you can put it back together the right way.

OMG. Just drywall? Who would actually do that? Yikes what a mess. Glad you decided to go ahead and investigate this now...before it got even worse.

Yeah the last tile that is half inside the shower and half outside was drywall. My contractor suggested ripping out the first and maybe second rows to see what we have and obviously the floor and the entire curb. He thinks properly bleaching, airing out, waterproofing all that and putting in the new pan then tiling will be adequate. We don’t exactly have the $ for a full gut now, but I do understand that is the ideal course of Action. Could what is suggested be enough for Now? Do large amounts of water enter the rest of the wall in a shower stall? Again, I do realize and agree that a full gut is the best course of action. What a nightmare.

"Could what is suggested be enough for Now?"

What is you definition of "for now"? You will need to do it all sooner rather than later. You cannot effectively waterproof that hot mess tieing into the rest of the shower. How do you know what is above is done any better? Tear it out now you will end up having to redo the pan when you gut anyway.

Proverbial lipstick on a pig. Tear it out now.

Dude, really, you need to rip it out now. You can't fix this and you can't put in a full waterproof system. Anything you do is likely to leak in a year or three and you will be right back here.

Everything that has been done on this job was done really badly - we knew it when we saw the tile and we haven't been proven wrong yet.

You may also need a different contractor.

Let me give you a tip about work like this: You will always get a better, cleaner, usually less expensive bid if you get the tear-out done first - then ask them to bid.

Nobody likes to bid a job where they can't really see what they are doing and are likely to run into surprises. When asked to do that, contractors will often build in padding OR they will jack the cost way up because they don't really want it unless they get a lot of money for it.

Also, you avoid people taking shortcuts because they ran into unforeseen issues and now the job's not profitable for them.

Yes. I hear you all and agree. Was hoping for a different answer. so, when you say gut or tear out - that just means all the shower tiles within the stall (wall and floor) - yes?

yes, including the wallboard to the studs. and the shower base to the plywood. You need to be able to see the plumbing in the wall in case they did anything stupid that is leaking there too.

Did you see anything that looks like waterproofing on the tile backer (Red Guard)? Are the corners and joints of the tile backer joined with thinset and mesh tape? I'm going to guess not - given that they tiled over drywall. It's a total crap job.

How many bathrooms in this house? Use another one for a year if you have to until you save up the money to do this one right. I've lived in far worse for longer.

Just for future reference, I believe Concrobium (which can be found at the big orange box store) is better than bleach for dealing with mold.

Looks like all drywall in the first row. Can’t beliebe anyone would install a shower that way. It’s a wonder it didn’t get worse quicker. How many rows up does cement board or the like typically go up? All the way?

" You will always get a better, cleaner, usually less expensive bid if you get the tear-out done first - then ask them to bid.

Nobody likes to bid a job where they can't really see what they are doing and are likely to run into surprises. When asked to do that, contractors will often build in padding OR they will jack the cost way up because they don't really want it unless they get a lot of money for it."

That is FABULOUS advice. I never even thought about it this way.

HU, contractors are homeowners too. He’s probably wondering what he got himself into. He’s likely trying to be conscious of your budget, but also trying to be diplomatic in his own way. Try and rephrase your approach with him. Ask him for two quote options: To continue opening up the walls and chasing damage piece by piece, then repair what he comes across and the warranty that comes with it, and; For a complete strip and redo with warranty. Then the next question: Ask him what he would do if it was his bathroom.

Great advice. Thanks tony. I will do as you suggested. He is a local guy and I know he isn’t trying to take advantage and as you mentioned, he realizes costs are adding up quick. My concern is if the entire shower stall is simply dry wall...

I'm not saying he's trying to take advantage of you... but I'm saying I'd question anyone's willingness to try to retain any of that.

Clear it out - then get bids.

You can say to him - "Hey, this is turning into something else and a much larger job. How about you doing the demo work and then I'd like to re-evaluate once we have it all open. Once it's open I'd like to get quotes on a rebuild given the new scope of the work that needs to be done."

You are going to use backer board as high up as the tile - often all the way up. But really a qualified installer will be making those decisions - you just need to have enough information that you don't get a bad installer again.

Chess-yeah that's me

Contractors are in business to make money - and there's nothing at all wrong with that. If they didn't make money there wouldn't be any contractors.

Any contractor with even a bit of experience knows that a profitable job can become an unprofitable job REALLY FAST if they aren't careful. Most don't have X-Ray vision either.

When the scope of work isn't clear is when things can go bad. When the homeowner thinks the job is "X" only to find out it's "Y" is when the homeowner gets unhappy and the contractor is under pressure to "make it work". "You said it was going to cost $10k and now you say it's going to be $20k... I don't have that much money and I think you are ripping me off .... " is kinda how that conversation goes.

If the scope of work is at all unclear - as in "I don't know what this will look like when we open it up", you should hire someone to do the demo and then you can get clean bids.

I like Jake’s advice.

Great points. Thanks Jake. He offered to open up so I’ll take him up on that and see where we stand as you mention.

If you do end up needing a custom shower pan due to the stud placement, I would definitely recommend Tile Redi's new custom pan - Redi Your Way. It is a solid one-piece PVC shower pan, not just liner that will ensure these issues will never happen!

Thanks robledol- if we use our current contractor he prefers tile redi. We have a pending order for a custom pan, just need to confirm measurements after we solidify our plan to gut. he also said he has never had an issue with their pans.

I recently gutted my 35 year old shower that was done in all drywall. Suprisingly no tiles fell off the wall before I took a hammer to it but it did smell wet and gross. InI'm using shluter kerdi in the new one do youyour research on how its installed so you can make sure they are following the appropriate steps.

Our two yucky shower stalls have that suspicious change of tile a couple rows up so I know we will find a half a job was done to fix a leaky pan. I wonder if it has kept slab damp enough to have cause floor issues in adjoining rooms.

in last house we discovered the builder tiled over Sheetrock. Our design decision to change tub tile to match new floor became a gut it to the studs and replace soggy insulation. Go all the way and gut it now.

We had the new rubber pan and two row up tile repair done in a shower about 15 years ago. Haven't had any problems that I can see, but I will be watching it now after reading these posts!

the floor and first and second rows are being gutted tomorrow. WILL let you know what we find. Thanks again!

Georgi - what was the condition of your first 2 rows? Did you have drywall too?

HU, you are probably not aware that cement backer board like Durock is not waterproof. I know that I did not know this before reading this forum. You have to put waterproofing all the way up the walls using even Durock. I bet you also did not know that grout is not waterproof. Grout, as in what goes between the tiles in the shower! This is why even walls must be waterproofed.

When you go to rebuild the shower, I would like to suggest something. A lot of people get condensation above the shower, on the walls. When the shower tile ends at 6 ft or 7ft, there are usually painted walls above the shower. I have a pet peeve about this because every shower I have had that had the walls end before the ceiling had molding on that paint where it met the tile.

I know that if your exhaust fan is good, this is not supposed to happen, but I just never get used to turning on the fan (and in winter, using it makes the bathroom cold). I was probably 30 before I had a house with an exhaust fan. I solved this problem in my remodel by getting an exhaust fan from Panasonic that senses the humidity and turns on.

So consider getting a less expensive tile that you can afford to take to the ceiling. It is just one more place that you don't have to clean in the long run!

HU, Sorry I don't remember the condition of the walls above the repair, but I would imagine if I saw any black spots I would have wanted to investigate further as it was my daughter's bathroom. At the time the house was 10 years old, so it probably was just some type of green sheetrock? We had them install a panel underneath the showerpan (over garage) to periodically check for leaks, it's still good.