and of course contractor's response is "you didn't order from my guy, so I can't be responsible" which is completely irrelevant.

Did you place the order or did the contractor? Did you confirm with the contractor that he talked with the supplier? Did you get his approval of the measurements in writing?

I have no idea since I have no idea what x was and what it ended up being.All of this should have been in writing and signed off .

"X" in this case is height. But that is not really the issue. "X and Y" are simply variable aspects that the contractor agreed to confirm for us before the order was final.

No, it was not ordered through the contractor, as my afterthought (first post) notes. Yes, it is always best to get things in writing, but not always practical, especially if the other party (in this case the contractor) is slow to respond.

What is in writing:

1) The size of the windows themselves, on the order itself, (not final, this was the confirmation stage)

2) My request for the contractor to confirm (with the manufacturer) that that size will be what we wanted when installed,

and

3) contractor's confirmation that he will visit with the manufacturer to check the sizes.

If he had said to me "I cannot go check for you, this is not my supplier" I would have taken a different approach to confirming. But instead, he said he would perform the requested task, and therefor has a professional obligation to do so and to stand behind his answer, or to have come back to us to say he cannot be certain.

Here's the issue. You placed the order, regardless of whether he confirmed it or not, it's on you. What should have happened was either let him do all the ordering, or you have him confirm the measurements to you and then you confirm them with the supplier. Also, I'm sorry but you need to get EVERYTHING in writing. Even if it takes him 2 weeks to respond. Even if you have to scribble it on a napkin and force him to sign it on the construction site. If it's not in writing it's valid.

Have you talked to him to see whether he's willing to come up with a solution?

Windows ordered not from one of contractor's suppliers

Did you place the order? If so, may I ask why?

Sina: I strongly disagree. If he was not willing to take responsibility for confirming the measurements, he had an obligation to tell me so when I requested he do it, or if he couldn't be certain after he did speak with them, he should have told me that. To confirm something without standing by it is unprofessional, and frankly, shows very weak character. As I said above, had he not agreed I would then have made other arrangements to get the info. He said he could and would do something and then failed to do so. I have talked to him about a solution; seems unwilling to discuss at this point.

Judy: I did indeed. Two reasons: his "guy" flaked out on us...did not show up for appointments, and they wanted us to use brands other than what we had chosen. (This was NOT for quality concerns about the brand we wanted on their part...they just don't carry the line) . Having him confirm the numbers on the order with the manufacturer is no different from him "placing the order' except for taking a cut. if he needed / wanted payment to compensate for not getting a cut, he needed to simply say that, and I would decide from there.

If you ordered the Windows you should check to make sure X is correct. You passed it along and then did not follow through double checking to make sure the window were correct. When building you need to check and double check and follow up. In construction guys flake out on you all the time. Unfortunately that is just a given. Sins is totally correct. Get everything in writing then check and double check.

It is important to distinguish between advice on construction practices and discussions of legal fault. While there are many things the OP could have done better, that doesn't mean he has any legal liability.

This really shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Suppose you asked your doctor to check your drug dosage as it seems high and he said he would before you picked it up. If you overdosed two days later would you think it was your fault for not double checking the doctor's work?

Suppose you asked your lawyer to look over a document you were going to sign and let you know if there was a problem. If it turns out there was a problem would you just assume you should have checked the document rather than have your attorney do it?

Your contractor should know more about building a house than you do, that is why you hired him or her. Not only is it unreasonable to expect you are more capable than he is of proper measuring, it is dangerous to assume that.

I can't tell you which party is at fault nor which is responsible to correct the issue.

It's best not to confuse roles and responsibilities on a project. If you hire a GC let him/her do their job including checking all window and door dimensions and ordering the windows and doors. Ditto for every other aspect of the project.

Why did you continue placing the order without receiving confirmation from the GC that he had reviewed it? When you decide to take on part of a project like this, you take on the responsibility of the accuracy unfortunately.

This thread is a great example of the problem I mentioned above with being wrong is not the same thing as realizing they are wrong, and sometimes the cost of making them realize they are wrong is not worth it.

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I went to law school, I have actual legal experience in contractor negligence (commercial), I spelled out the elements of negligence and why the contractor was negligent, I gave examples of similar situations where expertise would be relied upon, and still we get a comment that says, "When you decide to take on part of a project like this, you take on the responsibility of the accuracy unfortunately."

That is the real problem in a nutshell. I am not really picking on Barnes Custom Builders even though I am quoting that comment. I suspect his or her assessment of your situation is the one that the vast majority of contractors agree with. If third party contractors without any vested interest in the outcome are this tough to convince, imagine if you had to overcome their vested interest in not paying.

I am sorry to say, that it usually just isn't worth it.

Again, best of luck.

Based on the information provided, the client asked the GC to review the window order. He says OK I will. Was he given a deadline? Was he told that they were placing the order? Did he OK the items, and they were wrong? It sounds to me like it was mentioned once, and then never brought up again, and the OP placed the order without confirming with the GC.

If the OP did in fact say, hey I'm placing this order, OK? - and the GC Ok'd it - of course he is at fault.

I don't think there is enough information here to assume who is 'at fault'. If you are placing a hefty order, like a window order, you might want to double check with the professional that you are ordering the correct items.

This situation just seems strange.

(1) An official order was placed with approximate measurements?!?

(2) Some unknown timeframe was given to confirm those measurements.

(3) The confirmation didn't happen so the order went through with the approximate measurement.

That just seems like a bizarre way to do business. Or is there something that is being mis-represented in the description?

Based on the information provided, the client asked the GC to review the window order. He says OK I will.

He accepted responsibility

Was he given a deadline?

Did he ask for a deadline? The contractor is the party who is in the best position to know the time he needs to get a task done. Accepting responsibility for doing something accepts that it will be done in a timely manner, unless the contractor notes otherwise.

Furthermore, the timeliness argument goes away as the contractor never did it. If he performed the measurement two days after the windows were ordered, then he might be able to say I just needed more time, but let's assume these windows were not teleported from the factory instantly, and any realistic lead time for any window would be in excess of a timely manner.

Was he told that they were placing the order?

Yes, that was obviously the intended purpose of verifying the measurement.

Did he OK the items, and they were wrong?

He doesn't have to verify the items and nor is he responsible for them being wrong. He is, however, responsible for the one measurement that he agreed to check.

If the OP did in fact say, hey I'm placing this order, OK? - and the GC Ok'd it - of course he is at fault.

Can you find a single legal citation for your assertion? Why in the world would he need to do this?

I don't think there is enough information here to assume who is 'at fault'.

Then can you tell me why you said, "When you decide to take on part of a project like this, you take on the responsibility of the accuracy unfortunately." It seems you were fine assuming who was at fault when it was the homeowner rather than the contractor.

There is plenty here to make an educated guess at fault. In fact, there is far more than needed. However, if you will see my earlier disclaimer, you will note that I said, "assuming the facts are as you presented them." There are always two sides to a story and it is possible that hearing the other side changes that. However, advice needs to be based on the concrete information presented rather than assumptions on missing information.

If you are placing a hefty order, like a window order, you might want to double check with the professional that you are ordering the correct items.

Yes, we agree. However, might want to double check is not a legal requirement.

Having positive acceptance rather than passive acceptance is always a smart idea. The contractor saying, "this is correct" is a heck of a lot better than the contractor saying, "you can assume it is right if you don't hear from me." However, we are well past that point.

" Contractor says, sure, wlll do" He said in text? In an emaiil? Or he said it. Nothing in this world counts but the WRITTEN word. The rest is he said, she said, and why did you place the order with ANY UNCERTAINTY in the air?

Somebody is at fault, and it seems to be not the GC . His answer will be oh, forgot. His only error was to install them. Even that is not much, as YOU provided them.

I can't lay it out any better than did bry911 (thank you!), but I can and will fill in gaps, and clarify some of the assumptions (and flat out misreads) that have been made...but I have to get back to work so I can keep feeding the beast.

Thanks to all you who've given this thought and commented. Will be back to it EOD.

OP: "it is always best to get things in writing, but not always practical,
especially if the other party (in this case the contractor) is slow to
respond."

Knowing that this particular contractor is slow to respond, wouldn't it be better to be certain that he had indeed responded before finalizing the order?

Lol. Didn't realize this was a law forum now.

My point is that if a client asks us to check window sizes before ordering, we can do that no problem.

If YOU order YOUR windows before I get back to you with ANY answer, how and why am I responsible for any errors?

I think the details of the situation need to be clarified.

The situation that Barnes is commenting on is different than the situation that bry911 is.

"I've made an order for the windows with what I believe are the correct measurements. The measurements need to be confirmed before XXX date or the order will be considered correct and finalized. Can you do that?"

is much different than

"I'm ordering the windows on XXX. Please let me know the measurements so that I can place the order otherwise I'm just going to guess."

In the former situation, the OP assumes a passive role where the contractor agreed to do something and didn't (hence the contractor's fault). The latter is actively going ahead with something without getting the required information (hence the OP's fault).

ONLY the contractors fault if he said that in writing. Only his fault, if reminded, asked again as it appears he was not. All on the op who ordered minus any certainty.

Way to avoid this? Do NOT order your own stuff , from your own measure, unless you also happen to SELL the thing you are ordering, or are an engineer of the product.

Lol. Didn't realize this was a law forum now.

I think it is fair to recognize that remodeling has elements of construction, design, finance, contracts, and dispute resolution. There are several forums that are dedicated to the construction side only, and those are great at what they do, but there is certainly nothing wrong with getting applicable answers about all facets of projects.

If YOU order YOUR windows before I get back to you with ANY answer, how and why am I responsible for any errors?

Because when you say yes, you create a duty to act, and that duty includes acting in a timely manner.

You are going to struggle to defend your neglected responsibility with a "but for" defense. If you agree to do something, you become responsible for doing it, and you didn't do it. Not only that, it is a job that is reasonably assigned to contractors and contracting is largely a job of scheduling tasks at the appropriate time. You can't use, "he would have known I didn't do it if he asked," or "I would have done it if he reminded me," as defenses for not performing something that you created an obligation to perform.

So when multiple parties have an obligation, we usually look for the party who was in the best position to prevent the damage. So who is more likely to prevent a window from being ordered in the wrong size? A contractor or a homeowner? Generally, professionals have a hard time claiming that layman were responsible for something that is clearly within the scope of the professional's job.

Apparently it is in writing.

Is there a rule that states that the contractor must be reminded a certain number of times before he assumes responsibility? I think it would still be his fault if he agreed to do something (in writing) and didn't.

Or when I sign a contract, should I be going back to the contractor a week later to confirm that the contract is still valid and he's still going to build my house? Should I be checking with him every week that the contract is still valid? :)

Should the OP have reminded the contractor? Probably. But that doesn't put the responsibility back on the OP.

If it was verbal, then a reminder is much more important since verbal agreements are much more difficult to assign guilt with.

The only uncertainty is what was actually agreed to.

And as Bry911 expressed above, identifying the guilty party is much less important than just figuring out how to move on from here with both parties being reasonably content. There's no winner and loser in these situations. If you win this war, you'll probably lose something else down the road (and you may not even realize that you lost).

ONLY the contractors fault if he said that in writing. Only his fault, if reminded, asked again as it appears he was not. All on the op who ordered minus any certainty.

Why do you think this is governed by the statute of frauds?

Why do you think a customer needs to remind a professional to do their job?

I assure you if I don't file a required document in a timely manner it is almost certainly coming out of my malpractice insurance, and the excuse of why didn't they remind me is not going to work.

LOL. No wonder we are a litigious society. For gods sake, who in HE double matchsticks, orders windows without knowing for fact they are right? It's a bit like suing the automobile maker or the car dealer because you got in a standard transmission auto...... your brand new purchase.. But never learned how to drive a "stick" . Duh.

It's the dealer's responsibility to say " Sure you know how to drive this thing??" Seriously...............

We have gotten to some absurd no due diligence place of everything is someone else's fault. No wonder too, why there are so many "victims"

As I've said above, I'll have a comprehensive response later today.

But Jan's statements have grabbed my attention: "ONLY the contractors fault if he said that in writing. Only his fault, if reminded, asked again as it appears he was not." - Are you basing this on a point of law, or just opinion? You are assuming that he was not 'reminded' 'asked again' etc. Why do you assume that? (It is incorrect BTW, this wasn't just some quick little afterthought, but a substantial discussion over a period). Reminding, asking, over and over may be the wise thing to do (and I did it) but if a GC really needs that, then they should go into another line. It is certainly not an objective measure.

"Do NOT order your own stuff" - So, the only choices then would be to change contractors, or go with a sub-par or different product just because the contractors happen to have a supplier? Does that make any sense?

"from your own measure" No. It wasn't from my own measurement, it was from ambiguous blueprints supplied by GC, for a yet to be built structure. (GC insisted that windows must be delivered prior to building said structure) Thus, my unwillingness to complete the order without input from GC. Does that clarify at all?

Lots more comments...many good and interesting points....I will have to get back to them all later though, as I have to earn the money to pay for all this.

JAN, FFS, please read and think before you spout off with red herrings about personal responsibility, victim culture, etc. This is all about responsibility, and professionalism. "so many 'victims'" My FIRST POST posed the question as the whether I am to blame. You're way off track here.

So, back to the post: "For gods sake, who in HE double matchsticks, orders windows without knowing for fact they are right?" Well, I certainly didn't! I consulted with my hired professional to confirm that they are right. If you read the thread carefully and took the time to think, you would know this.

We have gotten to some absurd no due diligence place of everything is someone else's fault. No wonder too, why there are so many "victims"

LOL... On this we totally agree.

Can you actually imagine a world where a contractor would try to claim someone else is to blame because the contractor forgot to measure windows like he was supposed to? Crazy I mean.

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You all pretend that this is some ridiculous legal precedent because you don't like it. In reality it is the business concept of, You are in the business of doing something, you agree to do something, so do something.

This is the exact reason the window company we have been dealing with for over 40 years always do their own measurements on all of their installations. It prevents a lot of finger pointing.

I guess my concern would be less about assigning blame and more about trying to find an acceptable solution. Can the OP and the GC cooperate in working out a mutually acceptable outcome, even if it is one that requires compromise by both? We had lots of things go wrong on our build, some of which were clearly the builder's fault, but we were always able to work with him to reach an acceptable outcome. Is that a possibility?.

jmm1837: that is certainly the goal! In fact, I have a very good (IMO) solution to propose...where both sides bear share burden.

But first they need to stop deflecting and using the red herring of 'not using their guy', which was never stated as a condition of consulting on the order.

Construction Documents (Plans), normally contain various schedules -- windows, doors, plumbing etc.

For windows, sizing is always included, and the framer uses this info, as does the window supplier.

There should be nothing to confirm because everyone gets a copy and works off the same dimensions.

PPF....yes, 'normally' that would be the case! It's what I am used to. This outfit however (found on Houzz BTW) were very inexact in the plans...they are 'design/build' and their 'architect' didn't bother using the very precise measurements that were done prior (by the prior architect, who was just too costly). The firm's architect simply came in with a little hand held meter (laser? sonar?) and snapped it a couple of times. I immediately sent them the prior, exact measurements of the existing structure. (There have been many other problems flowing from the lack of proper measurements, including a very odd roof-line, but for my own health's sake, I've decided to let that go.)

"(by the prior architect, who was just too costly)"

Say no more..................................

So...cost (of a professional...e.g. an architect) carries a direct positive correlation with their skill level or professionalism, 100% of the time? There are a lot of factors contributing to my statement that the prior architect was too costly....and it's really not the point.