My experience with Pratt & Lambert from 20 years ago is that it's a very good paint... if you are painting raw surfaces, priming with P&L primers and you intend to re-coat it with P&L paint when you change colours.

Nothing else, not even BIN, will stick to Pratt & Lambert paints. When we decided to change brands, we had to prime with P&L primer, put BIN on top of that, then the two coats of Benjamin Moore.

In another room, applying BM Ceiling White over a deep teal colour from P&L, I started with a white roller and paint and at the end I was painting with a nice minty green! I mean the paint in my pan was mint green! Even the second coat washed off!

Trying to paint over other brands would not work well either. This was in multiple rooms/bedrooms, walls cleaned with cleaner from the same bottle that was used in non-P&L rooms without any issues, so our issues were likely not prep/cleaning related.

But aside that compatibility issue, it was the best paint we ever used. It covered well, was very easy to apply and it was very washable and durable.

Wow. That would be a consideration. While it's a new build and I don't have to worry about painting over anything, repainting later would be another issue. Thanks for the feedback!

w0lley: If it’s the best paint you ever used, why’d you decide to stop using it?

Holly: I was wondering some of the same things about P & L, too (mainly who/what keeps them in business). Another brand I have similar questions about is California Paints. Both brands are carried by the paint store from which I purchased some Farrow & Ball samples a couple weeks ago but I never hear about anyone actually using them. Could it be a regional thing?

Possible. In my neck of the woods, P&L is typically found at little independent hardware stores. And one pro-oriented painter's supply place about 45 minutes away in a larger city.

I've seen one designer comment that P&L hadn't stayed as up to date with latex technology and it's hard to find in her area now, so she's moved over to Ben M. But that's about the only comment I've seen in terms of why an ID does or doesn't use it. I see it very uncommonly listed in a photo credit from a shelter magazine or website.

Possibly there is just such an overload of info on the few really popular shades that everybody uses, that everything else just gets lost in the noise. (Revere Pewter, White Dove, Alabaster, Pale Oak, etc.) I'm going for a robin's egg, and I've seen a few people remark that P&L has the best blue/green range.

I thought it was worth investigation.

Sammy: I stopped using P&L because the only store nearby that carried it stopped carrying it. It's only then that I found the hard way about their comeptitors' adhesion issues.

Interesting note - in my wide-ranging search of the intarweebs, one contractor opined, "If you want what once generated the reputation of P&L - follow the talent."

The former head chemist at P&L left to start his own company. It's carried by a local painter's supply outlet. I may need to investigate:

https://c2paint.com/

The former head chemist at P&L left to start his own company. It's carried by a local painter's supply outlet. I may need to investigate:

Tom Hill is the President of C2 Paint. He is chemist, was a Sr. VP of Research for P&L, and was slated to take over P&L but Sherwin-Williams bought P&L in 1996 and he was RIF'd. He then spun off and created the Coatings Alliance. Read more here.

As far as I know, P&L is using the same formulations. Accolade is their top tier.

A million years ago - talking late 80s/early 90s - I used P&L because it was convenient to get from a small mom & pop hardware store and we had a better than average contractor discount which made it competitive. I don't remember any priming or adhesion issues for repainting when the discount for Ben Mo became more attractive. We lived in that house till 1990 and did a lot of painting mostly on old plaster but also drywall in new additions. They used to have a matte acrylic varnish that was my first choice for wood projects or furniture.

Thanks, Lori. Do you have any opinions from your experience with either P&L or C2? Paint quality, color selections, when compared to cost?

I did not know that you can reliably have P&L colors mixed in SW paints. That's handy. It means I can let the painters use what they're comfortable with, rather than a new formula that they might have some trouble with. And still get P&L colors.

I may also have to at least ask what the $ difference would be to go with C2. :-) Their trim paint looks particularly attractive.

P&L paint was never really marketed to the retail trade. It was a paint favored by architects and custom designers. It was gorgeous paint! We used it in two houses and it covered well and held up beautifully. When it was no longer available in my town, we had to switch to a paint made by a local cal company which pretty much dominated the local market until it was sold to a huge national company.

I always felt it had more pigments and resins in it than other paints - like Farrow & Ball does. It was expensive and most people prefer cheap paint and don’t know the difference anyway. I guess if one repaints or moves every 3-5 years, it doesn’t matter!

Thanks, Anglo. I always respect your opinion, especially where paint is concerned. Lucky for me, it's pretty available in my area, both at independent hardware stores and one pro paint supply place that also happens to carry C2.

I do notice in reading many a BB online that pro painters have Opinions!(TM) regarding paint brands that sometimes seem to have little to do with the quality of the product and much more to do with other factors like margin and how long they've used that brand. ;-) GW used to have it's very own C2 Cheerleader, balanced by a Ben M fan who pretty much hated C2. Old threads can be a fun read.

In my experience with professional painters, their #1 objective is to do the job as cheaply as possible, with as little effort as possible, and as much profit as possible! Yes, there are exceptions to this but they are few and far between. It's why I learned VERY early to always provide the paint to the painter. Then I KNEW what paint was being used! Painters will buy paint at whatever store is on their way from home to the job or that gives them the best discounts.

For what ever reason, P& L has been loosing market share for years. I haven't used it in years. It was a good paint, but somewhat hard to use. Its Accolade laid out like an oil paint, with a rounded look, rather than a peaky texture that many "latex" paints have. The problem from the perspective of a contractor, is that it rolled like oil paint - very draggy! For the contractor, time is money. It just was too hard to produce efficiently. Otherwise, I never had problems with how it acted, as one of the other posts above mentioned. Its old oil "Cellulite" line flowed out beautifully, to where it looked sprayed on. However, it liked to run like crazy!

Sherwin Williams bought P&L in 1995. That's likely why they aren't doing a lot. Accolade Downy Gray was a good color before they reformulated. Then you need to cut a gallon formula by half. This wouldn't allow quarts. So no go for a chip.

It is getting hard to find independant paint companies. Sherwin Williams and PPG have been on a buying spree in later years with Ben Moore bringing up the rear. PPG used to dwarf SW worldwide, but SW is now slightly ahead.

David, it sounds as if you speak wisdom from experience as a pro painter. Have you ever used C2, or do you have other independent paint companies you recommend? And do you have a favorite trim paint?

I have now lost several hours of my life to Lori's blog, gone and found the LRV chart for C2, failed to find one for P&L, and spent some time trying to determine what might or might not be similar colors.

My inspiration photo:

I plan on doing a similar swapping of wall and trim color from the living area as you pass through a cased opening into the kitchen and hallway to the rest of the house. I'm planning on a robin's egg color taken from the painted Swedish Tile Stove that will go in the living area:

Paired with a warm white.

Holly,

I have been away from contracting for a dozen years now, after 4 decades in the trade. My "retirement" job, at age 75, is selling paint at Home Depot. I now use Behr products exclusively on my house, both interior and exterior. Of those products I have used, I have never been disappointed.

The Home Depot computers contain match formulas for most of the National brands, plus many regional brands. HD also has state of the art color matching equipment for those colors not in the data base. For flat wall surfaces, Behr Ultra is my "go to" paint. I have used Behr's premium Marquee line when one coat was deemed desirable

On cabinetry and furniture, Behr's water based Alkyd paint gives excellent results. I have also been using it on re-coating the woodwork in my house which still has the builder's sprayed on latex paint. After brushing, it is hard to tell the difference from the original sprayed finish. The WB Alkyd has the attributes of an oil paint, with the ability to clean up with water. I dries to a hard, durable finish which levels out very well. When sprayed with airless equipment, it is really outstanding!

I have now lost several hours of my life to Lori's blog.

:) Sorry. Hope you had fun.

BTW, Recently added updated images to this older post.

I've read about it and think I saw it on occasion in NYC but have never seen it here in Canada. I had to use the store locator on the website, and nearest location is one store in Edmonton a six-hour roundtrip from us. There are two stores in Calgary but that's a 10-hour trip. Interestingly, that's the same availability in Alberta as Farrow & Ball, one store in Edmonton and two in Calgary.

I really would like to find someone who is familiar with how P&L works now. After stopping by 2 indie hardware stores that carry the line (but don't offer the small sample cans), I am suspicious that there are two different color sets. One is the premium P&L line. These stores carry a small smattering of those single chips. And then there is another line made for Do It Best hardware stores. These are primarily drop down colors. You can get Accolade or the Do It Best bases. But no chips of quite a lot of the colors I want. And, as mentioned, no samples.

I'm hoping the pro paint supply place (not open on weekends) will carry chips of the full, REAL P&L line, as well as C2. They sell both, but hopefully offer samples. Not sure, since I don't know if their Target market of paint contractors has any use for samples.

I'd also still like to find an LRV chart. Hopefully that will help me maintain a decent contrast between the blue and the white shades.

*Sorry. Hope you had fun.*

You shouldn't be sorry. It was educational. I do wish more of the paint companies would make some of the info available on paint chips, to aid in color selection.

I never tried P&L paints, but, like David, I swear by Behr paint products. (No, I don't work for Home Depot or for Behr!) My favorite formula is Behr Ultra Premium Plus. It covers like a dream and I've never been disappointed. I did try the Behr Marquee line once, but found it to be a little too thick for my liking. In my opinion, Behr far outperforms Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams paints. I tend to think that because those brands often sponsor TV decorating shows, do-it-yourselvers might be hoodwinked into thinking they must be THE brand to buy.

You can look up"reasonably informative" LRVs for any paint brand on easyRGB. "Reasonably informative" because it's not going to match the LRV listed by the paint brand. It's going to be close but not exactly the same.

That's normal and to be expected. Won't bore you with the reasons why it's ok, just trust me that it is.

Here's how to do it:

Go to easyRGB dot com.

Click Find Similar Colors

Start typing your color name

It will pop up below the box underlined and in red - click on your color

Click "Compare"

Click on your color number and name

Choose "Convert" from the pop up menu

This is a table of all the spectral data/color data values for your color.

Find "XYZ"

The second number, which is = to Y, is LRV.

For example, P&L's Designer White's LRV is 90.886.

It has to be a capital Y and it has to be XYZ or Yxy.

The Y in CMY and CMYK is the value for an amount of yellow ink. That Y has nothing to do with LRV.

Can also just buy a fandeck: https://www.co-store.com/shopprattandlambert

So I can! I may have to do that. Though it's mildly annoying that postage is as much as the deck. :-P

I might even get a C2 deck, as well as the leaflet of their Barry Dixon colors. (I rather like some of those colors, too)

I have now lost several hours of my life to Lori's blog

Welcome, new member of the club! I poured over her site and old posts looking for the off-white I saw in my mind's eye. Oh, and in north facing rooms with new, greenish LowE windows/doors. I became obsessed with chroma and LRV. We'll see how I did once the painters get started. At least it won't look dingy. Imagine my horror when the superintendent said that they'd just color match the sample I'd painted. I almost screamed YOU MUST USE THE FORMULA, after my numbers obsession. Instead, I gave them the color info and removed my board - lol!

My next task is to find a punchy blue-green for the dining room and C2 has a couple that look promising. There's only one retailer in the entire Houston metro area. Surely it won't cost more than the F&B colors I'm considering?

I'm looking forward to seeing your vision come to reality!

Though it's mildly annoying that postage is as much as the deck. :-P

:-0 Oh shoot, I didn't even look at shipping.

Oh shoot, I didn't even look at shipping

Eh, even WITH postage, it's half the cost of the C2 deck! I will probably order it later today. I try not to shop online late in the evening when I'm super tired because sometimes... things happen.

Though, in fairness, the C2 deck is made with the actual paint, so there's that.

My next task is to find a punchy blue-green for the dining room and C2 has a couple that look promising.

I'm curious, which are you contemplating? I notice you CAN order color chips on line, individually. Although they're $1 each. Which is why I was contemplating just ordering the fan deck. I did download their LRV chart, but it's still hard to tell on the screen which colors tip more blue vs. more green.

I'm curious, which are you contemplating?

I was immediately drawn to A Capella and Churchill, with Raindrop and Whitewater as maybes. The lighter selections might be exactly right when light and color are bouncing around the room. This screen was my Grandma's and it's coming to live with me. I want a color that highlights (not necessarily matching one) the blue-greens in it, and makes me smile when I walk by. I have plenty of time to find a color I love.

I have samples of F&B Arsenic, Breakfast Room Green, Blue Ground, and St. Giles Blue (kind of a lark). I still need to paint my sample boards.

Interesting addendum: One thing I've noticed over the last few months is that local retailers are dropping Ben Moore like a hot rock. I wonder why? Possibly Ben is getting more strident about indy stores not carrying other lines? This includes a few retailers currently listed on their website, who no longer stock. One of them even had the color display shoved into a corner with as much stuff piled in front of it as possible and the lights off.

There have been rumors for years that BenM only wanted their product in BenM franchised stores.

It's looking like I'll get my hands on Motor City Paint samples more easily than Ben Moore. Hmmm. Interesting.

In my part of the world, dispensing ultimatums of that nature usually go over (to quote Dad) "like a fart in a rain barrel." So far the score seems to be Indy Paint stores 5: Ben Moore 2

Farrow and Ball is probably ridiculously $$$. Although the fan deck was generous of them.

As for Motor City Paints, I want to look over the deck by daylight. It's interesting, although possibly a bit prosaic. It's also probably less expensive than C2, while getting higher marks for things like washability, stain resistance, and coverage than Aura or Accolade in some independent testing. And they do still make an oil based trim paint.

Now I'm trying to decide if I still want to spring for the C2 fan deck.

Although the fan deck was generous of them.

It might be the older deck that's missing the 6 (or maybe 9) new colors that they just came out with a few weeks ago. F&B has a reputation for being cheap with color tools - I've always had to log in a buy the fandeck off the website.

The Motor City Paints store did also send along the New Colors brochure and the little fold out with small color chips. I will try to be generous and return it to them when I'm done, or possibly pass it on to my designer if she doesn't already have one.

And, finally, a C2 Deck. I also met The Paint Monk. His name is Nate, and he recommends C2 painst throughout the house. He would be HAPPY to talk to our painting contractor. :-)

I also got some sample pints to try. I figure I can make myself some large boards, then give the rest of them to the painter if he wants to try out the texture a bit.

Other fun moments: Nate, the Paint Monk, talking with the moderately educated consumer (me), surrounded by an audience of employees who ranged from a high school kid at his after-school job to a couple guys who do the autobody paint side:

Nate: "C2 just has the best colors. No way around it. It's their pigments. And now Benny has launched a new line and they're all '16 artisan pigments'!! And I'm like... Dudes, C2? But I like to try new things, so I got a can. It's like $120/gallon!"

Me: "Holy Fine Paints of Europe, Batman!"

"Right?!? Anyway, we were painting a room at my Dad's so I took it there and he looked at me afterward and said, 'What is that stuff? It sucks!' Back to C2, it is!"

"Wow. So noted. I really do like some of these colors. I'm going to go paint some samples."

"Good idea. I've got 10 C2 colors in my house now, and I really like it. My favorite thing is how in the sunset light it's just, like, ALIVE!!"

(At this point, some of the other employees were slowly backing away)

Nate continued: "PPG was asking why I don't do more business on the architectural side, and I told them because it's because I don't have anything GOOD! So we brought in C2 like 6 months ago. I get a little pushback from PC's at first, but once they try it, they don't go back. You have your painter call and ask for Nate, and I'll make sure we get him all set up!"

Heh. I sort of had fun.

I think it helps that my husband and I both have a certain experience with color. He was an ink technician in college. His ability to discern between very close colors isn't quite what mine is - but he understands mixing tints. I have some experience on the fine art side. I prefer liquid watercolors for the clarity of the tints and ease of mixing. And I've also spent some time studying medieval manuscript painting, along with using gouache to reproduce the techniques. So I'm familiar with using increasing amounts of a color's complement to darken it. Black (especially with goauche, where you can have cool blacks and warm blacks) can really muddy things up. Even white sometimes isn't the way you want to go to "lighten" or highlight.

So here's hoping the painting contractor isn't TOO resistant to the idea. And I'm also hoping that they offer a contractor's price that will make the upcharge over BM or SW less painful!

That was so much fun to read. I'm looking forward to reading more about how you're choosing paint!

He was probably talking about Ben Moore's new Century line. It's being marketed as "small batch" interior paints. The colors are premixed in the factory, not the store. This is similar to Farrow & Ball's business model.

The colors aren't full spectrum but apparently they're different in that they were not designed with the goal of constancy in mind like most regular paint colors.

C2 Paints was actually quite late to the full spectrum paint colors party.

Donald Kaufman was first

Ellen Kennon and Citron (now closed) followed

Then came Ben Moore's Color Stories

Shortly after Ben Moore, C2 Paints switched to full spectrum. They were not full spectrum in the beginning. Their brand was only about multiple, import pigments.

The genesis of paint colors isn't the formula.

It's CIELAB values. Paint colors come from numbers and math, color systems and spaces.

I do think that was the name.

Next step is to print out the LRV chart to go with the fan deck. (I DO wish C2 would get with the program and print that IN the deck, that's a pain).

If I'd thought about it, I'd have asked for a P&L deck, too. Although I'm not sure Paint Monk would have sold me anything so prosaic, when I was also getting the C2 deck! Still, I have a little collection of tools.

I do get a bitsy bit frustrated about the lighting in paint stores. I did take some chips outside, but still I'm a little annoyed with myself. I brought home Variegated and Crystal, but now wish I'd gone with Ella instead of the latter. And I grabbed Vintage Linen, but that's going to be MUCH too orange. I wanted a warm white and that's decidedly an orange cream. I'll have to commune with the fan deck some and try to find a better option. Cotton, perhaps. I do like Goats Milk from the Barry Dixon collection, but it says those colors only come in Luxe. I don't know if I could get it in the Trim and Cabinet. :-/ Perhaps I shall have to sweet talk the paint guy.

Cotton is very pretty.

I wasn't a believer in Farrow & Ball's paints other than their wonderful colors and whimsical color names. Then I bought it. It killed me to have to pay the high shipping cost, and if doing an entire house, it would be well worth driving to a city where there is a store and getting it all at once and hauling it home. But this was for 1 small guest room (approx 9x12). So I ordered it.

I chose "Pelt". It's a lovely color as it changes with the light. My guest room has one window on the west, and the other on the north. The color changes from brown to DEEP purple to cordovan, depending on the time of day and whether it is natural or artificial light. That makes the room SO much more interesting! And this deep, deep color only required 1 gallon of paint - one coat on the walls.

They use SO many ground pigments in their paint and their resins are of the highest quality. There is a reason for the price of this paint and it's not just the crazy color names! They are, however, quite appealing...

Paying to have a room painted is no less expensive when one buys cheap paint as it is with more expensive paint. The cost of the labor is the same, and in some instances, if the walls only require 1 coat, it might actually be less with the more expensive paint.

I will try to update a I go, alex! Tomorrow I may try to paint some foam core board. Then at least I'll have a better idea of the colors.

And now my techie, color-savy husband pops up with, "How do full spectrum paints respond to RGB lightbulbs?" (We have several now, and I suspect he will try to sneak a few into the new house.)

Errrrr. Hmmmmm. *sigh* Well, that will be ANOTHER experiment, won't it?

My office in my last house was F&B's Blue Ground and it really was special, loved it.

John is leaning toward C2's Scallywag for his. _I_ find it a bit dark, but since his office will have a good sized window and two walls in book cases, it might work out OK.

And now I see that Goat's Milk DOES come in the trim paint. I might have to drop back by for samples of that, and Cotton. As well as Ella, depending on what I think of the larger version of Variegated.

I finally painted my samples on some foam core board, and of course now it's endless overcast weather, so it's hard to get a really good feel for the colors. (Also, it's really hard to paint the slippery surface on foam core board. Lots of holidays!)

The colors are not going to render that accurately, and I'm still leaning toward grabbing a sample of Ella. But the thing that really doesn't show in a mere photo is the finish on this paint. It's their eggshell, but it's just velvety. It looks like a really lovely matte finish ceramic. Wowzers.

Crystal:

Variegated (yes, these two are really close. PaintBoi! thought he'd mixed the same shade twice, at first. In person you can tell that Crystal is appreciably more green, although that appears reversed in my photos)

Vintage Linen, which is entirely too tan

And Scallywag, which is a really rich blue leaning into the greeny-teal shades:

Still, it was a fun exercise in meeting the paint, if you will.

It's their eggshell, but it's just velvety. It looks like a really lovely matte finish ceramic. Wowzers.

:) Right?

It's like how cheap lipstick like Wet-n-Wild feels vs. a tube from MAC or Chanel.

The final finish, the hand that you can feel with your eyes is one of the hardest things to communicate to people about why more expensive cans of paint are worth the money. And by more expensive it's usually just a few cents more per square foot.

When you compare the value of paint, you have to compare based on cost per square foot, you can't compare the cost gallon to gallon. Because the better grade paints will have a better spread rate in most colors. Some colors won't hide or cover well no matter how much you pay for the gallon. Just the nature of color.