no green board in wet areas. proper waterproofing that includes taping/mortaring seams of cement board should be done, Redgard is often done over that.

have no idea what your shower floor looks like (proper slope, waterproofing, weep holes for the drain not covered, etc)

tile layout should be done before they even start to assure proper cuts, no slivers in corners, proper lineup around corners, niche placement, etc.

your tile guys sounds like hacks.

Find a licensed tile setter who knows all of this (and do your homework so you know what questions to ask). try going into an upper end tile store and talk to the manager. ask him who did HIS tile work in his house.

I posted before, but the post has disappeared. I also live in Queens, there are many good contractors out there. Finding a good one can be difficult. In NYC there are many CTEF certified contractors, but I guarantee they cost more. If they follow all TNCA guidelines they are worth every penny. There are also non certified tilers who are excellent.

First, did you have a general contractor or did you hire the tilers directly. If you have a GC he/she is the one who should be making this right. I would suggest you contact your management of your co-op and ask which contractors they have had a good relationship with and have worked in your building before. Then I would contact them and also ask if the owners of the apartments they worked on, will let you see their work.

I am glad you were smart and stopped the current workers from moving forward. I wish you a happy and quick resolution to this issue.

is not waterproofed

Thanks so much for all the info. Total hack job, no doubt. The contractors are pretty awful and the people who did the installation are, obviously/definitely, not tile professionals. Having a meeting today, but knowing these people they'll just quit. I really appreciate all of your information and insight. Home renovations for someone who is unknowledgeable, like myself, sure is hard so your advice is appreciated.

My only post. Hope it helps. https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/homeowners-guide-to-hiring-qualified-tile-installer

I only want to add that greenboard has not been "code" in a shower for over 20 years.....

"I'm not super super detail oriented but "

You need to become so, and in the intial budgeting and hiring phase. If not for you, consider landfills as this disaster gets torn out, consider the fuel and exhaust to get this to the dump, consider the dust in multiple versus one single installation attempt.

And for anyone still reading, understand this.

The MFG industry of tile materials love selling materials once, twice, three times,so do box stores, its a shame they dont do more to better our industry and environment long term..

Thank you T.F.W. I did not know and it's a great point you raised. Im in a completely different work industry and as a first time renovator i'm learning alot. Thank you

Thanks TFW! I do care about the environment and thanks for educating me. I’m learning a lot.

As an update: awaiting on new estimates from different contractors. Is there any advice on size of tiles for a small bathroom? Every one who has looked at the bathroom agrees it's a total redo but I am getting different input on which size tiles would be best. I'm open to small or large and really prefer functionality and symmetry over pure aesthetics

Designers don't install, installers don't design. (speaking generally of course) Hire a designer to consult on the finishes, you may be lucky and find a good independent tile store that has skilled salespeople that will help you at no additional cost. Then when you have selected the tile you make sure the tile artisan you have selected agrees that it will work for the chosen purpose, they will also usually help you confirm tile quantities, edging amounts, etc.

My experience is that many people think they need a small tile in a small bathroom. To me, many times it just looks "busy." I prefer a larger tile....but, hey, that's just me.

I really like the tiles you used on the first try. They will (appear to) lay flatter if they are offset more, like 1/3 instead of the 1/2.

I think the tile size looks fine.....it's a matter of personal preference, but the size can affect how they are laid. For tiles this size make sure your tile person uses a levelling system. They should be able to tell you the one they prefer.

thanks so much! i had a different contractor come, one who uses a leveler. steep learning curve. appreciate your advice!

FYI, here is some info about tile levelling systems for large format tiles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GFkOiWvbUA

and also ask what backer board and waterproofing system will use around the tub

As others said.. there is no waterproofing. Regardless if you use Greenboard or CBU ... always use waterproofing. 3 coats of RedGard or Kerdi (matter of preference) will make a day/night difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQbQPwITNRY&lc=z22zdbmbysnuy31efacdp433h4veckzb4f42ywslyjlw03c010c.1548090373858344

" Regardless if you use Greenboard or CBU ... always use waterproofing. 3 coats of RedGard "

Incorrect from both MFG and industry standards.

A. Greenboard is not allowed in showers per USG.

From USG Most recent UPDATED specification sheet regarding Greenboard drywall.

LIMITATIONS 6. Not suitable for use as a substrate for tile in wet areas such as tubs and showers, gang showers and other areas subject to direct water exposure. 7. Use as a tile substrate is limited to tile installed according to the most current TCNA and ANSI specifi cations.

B. Redgard is very clear as to 2 coats and those 2 coats must be to the proper MIL thickness verified via A Mil thickness guage. There is reasons they are adamant about this and not to exceed thickness. .

Few facts From the MFG.CBP about Redgard.

. Apply a continuous film with overlapping spray. The membrane appearance is pink when wet and dries to a dark red color. It typically takes 1-1.5 hours to turn completely red. After the first coat turns red, inspect the film for integrity and fill any voids or pinholes with additional material. Apply a second coat at right angles to the first coat. To meet the requirements of IAMPO, Two coats should be applied at a rate of 80 sq. ft. per gallon each coat. In all cases the wetfilm thickness should not exceed 125 mils.

you might try this... https://www.thespruce.com/what-is-gr...rywall-1822831

According to ASTM C 1396, Section 7, water-resistant drywall can be used in wet locations such as behind tile in bathtub or shower stalls. While greenboard drywall's paper covering is water-resistant, it is not waterproof. According to ASTM C473, after two hours of water immersion, the average water absorption for panels should not be more than 5-percent by weight.
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CBU board isn't waterproof either it's water stable which mean it will allow water to pass through with out crumbling. I definitely would not recommend green board installed naked in a wet area.
That being said it won't matter if you apply a redgaurd on it. You will be adding 3 different companies on top of each other and they all don't want to be responsible for the other company that's why you have a tcna or recomadations on back of product your using.

Consult your local building codes! Professionals, manufacturers and trade associations often give conflicting instructions as products and techniques evolve. However, if you don't meet local code you won't pass inspection. Where I live the only allowed tile substrates in showers are CBU and waterproofed foam backer boards. Drywall of any type is not allowed where I live, even if it is waterproofed.

"According to ASTM C 1396, Section 7, water-resistant drywall can be used in wet locations such as behind tile in bathtub or shower stalls"

Interesting, is this statement actually in ASTM C1396 or is this your interpretation. I do not recall any instance where ASTM directly states the use or application of a material. ASTM provides standardized tests procedures for the determination of the performance of materials under specific test conditions. Codes and other authorities then decide what are the performance requirements needed for a product to be used in a specific application.

According to the site that has been posted above it's lagit. You guys need to stop being the codes enforcement police. Like I said and if you don't actually do the installs you won't understand that you are putting 3 different companies products together, there is nothing wrong with following the installation guildlines but at the end of the day it's the installers who have to installs the products. Matter what I say you kitchen designers tell me why it can't be done because you have to go by the book..... That's not always the case unfortunately.

"Matter what I say you kitchen designers tell me why it can't be done because you have to go by the book..... That's not always the case unfortunately."

From a professional perspective, my ethics and duty to my clients I am bound to follow the Building Codes. These codes are not optional, they are the "Law", not doing so is a criminal offence.

The site you are referencing is not ASTM, you need to attain the actual ASTM standard and read it precisely. This is also applicable with codes, many others cite the code and often when doing so they inject their own personal interpretation or when searching the code they have failed to perform a proper search and as such are basing their conclusions on less than complete information.

Better to stay on the Canadian forums

I was able to obtain an excerpt from the actual ASTM C 1396

"Water-resistant gypsum backing board, designed primarily to be used as a base for the application of ceramic or plastic tile on walls or ceilings. This product is also suitable for decoration."

Certainly within what I could attain there is no specific mention of wet areas or tubs or showers in their definition of Water Resistant Gypsum Backing Board.

In this statement you will notice the wording "...designed primarily to be used for...". The purpose of this statement is to describe/categorize this product according to the manufacturers intention/desire concerning what this product was developed for. This does not mean the product can be specifically used in the manufacturers intended place of application. The code will determine that.

Ontario is not California or Massachusetts or Florida. Drywall in showers might meet building code in some of those areas while it is forbidden in some. So make sure you meet local codes and then install products to the trade and manufactures specifications.

So just to be clear, the no waterproofing is not only just a "bad job," they are technically illegal at this point. There must be waterproofing by code.

"Better to stay on the Canadian forums"

Not sure why you keep saying this. I can assure you that there are very few differences between our codes, standards, building materials or techniques. Codes and standards are not written in isolation, there is considerable collaboration, especially on the major codes. Though we have our own standards body CSA, ASTM standards are highly adopted here.

Yes there are regional differences, but these tend to be more related to differences between regionalities concerning the likes of earthquakes, hurricanes, wild fires, snow loading and areas of extreme high density high rise construction.

You guys need to know there are only 5 codes for bathrooms. Toilet code, sink code, electrical code, plumbing code and shower code which states nothing about wall substrate for tile. There is no reason to pull a permit to alter walls of a shower.

Super Lumen

"So just to be clear, the no waterproofing is not only just a "bad job," they are technically illegal at this point. There must be waterproofing by code."

Unfortunately this "Waterproofing" is something that is creating most of the controversy. Many of the codes out there are no t100% clear on this resulting in considerable ambiguity. Also, when say a national code changes each region has the general discretion to adopt the new code or stay with their existing code. This is why it is important to check the code specific to your locality.

It may well be that in your region "Waterproofing" may not be mandated by code. They may instead feel that materials of specific "Water Resistance" are sufficient.

In my state the codes says

"Water-resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used where there will be direct exposure to water, or in areas subject to continuous high humidity."

Now if you cover it with Kerdi or Hydroban is it still exposed to water? I don't fancy arguing that with an inspector so it is never used in a shower in my state?

It's not being directly exposed to water.... You are applying thinset and tile. Although these items are not waterproof.... A correct tile install will prevent water from Touching the drywall. Most people end up with cracks in the grout or some other reason water gets behind the tile, that's why it should be waterproofed. Kirdi is a better option over redgaurd. You aren't exposing green board to water therefore you wouldn't need to pull a permit and have it inspected.

Forgive me, I am familiar somewhat with NYC code requirements, which I did not point out. NYC requires full waterproofing in showers for residential applications.

"...shower compartments shall be constructed of smooth, noncorrosive and nonabsorbent waterproof materials to a height not less than 6 feet (1829 mm) above the room floor

level, and not less than 70 inches (1778 mm) where measured from the compartment floor at the drain. Such walls shall form a water-tight joint with each other and with either the tub, receptor or shower floor."

They even go on in the code book to list exactly how shower wall waterproof membranes must perform and adopt ANSI A118.10 as law, they also go so far as to adopt the manufacturer installation instructions for waterproof membranes as law.

They even require the floor to be waterproofed and 6" up the wall if it is a Multiple Dwelling Unit: "The floor of every such compartment, bathroom or general toilet room shall be made waterproof with material approved by the department, and such waterproofing material shall extend six inches or more above the floor, except at doors."

It's not being directly exposed to water.... You are applying thinset and tile. Although these items are not waterproof.... A correct tile install will prevent water from Touching the drywall.

This does not cover the "high humidity" criteron. The code also forbids water resistant gypsum board from being installed over Class I and Class II vapor barriers in showers. This obviously harkens back to the older shower construction method. So inspectors and contractors in my area will not allow greenboard in showers as a tile backer whatever it gets covered with.

Idk what glass 1 and 2 vapor barriers are which sounds like a oxy-moron vapor barriers are fine behind the wall endless Its a Exterior wall then slits will have to be made for air to move prevent mold growth

Class 1 is ploy, Class 2 is kraft paper. The code specifically prohibits these behind greenboard in showers, probably because any condensation would be right next to the greenboard and would cause it to fail.

I would like to see on paper that a permit would need to be pulled and inspection of a shower wall redo......... crickets.........chirp.........chirp......lol

It's easy enough to read and follow local code and to do a job in the way an inspector expects. In MA that means no greenboard in showers or bath surrounds, that might be ok elsewhere, but not here. So follow your local codes and your life will be a lot easier. Personally I would use a waterproof foam tile backer board if I was doing a shower.

"You guys need to know there are only 5 codes for bathrooms. Toilet code, sink code, electrical code, plumbing code and shower code which states nothing about wall substrate for tile. There is no reason to pull a permit to alter walls of a shower."

Not accurate, the code covers every aspect of construction and it does cover substrates for tile, you are just not looking in the right place. The other aspect is that the code does not always specifically state every conceivable material or application requirement. This is covered in the code through the referencing of other standards, accredited associations, listing agencies and manufacturers installation procedures.

You are correct that if one is just installing tiles there is no specific requirement for a permit. This is applicable to a number of construction activities. This however does not exclude one from meeting the code. They have this covered within other statutory state regulations that govern the application of the code and the responsibilities of person performing construction work.

There's just no way around it.

I'm thinking you guys up there wouldn't have such code sticklers if Mike Holms didn't become famous......I blame him lol

You could be right on that one though I'm no fan of him anyway. I believe if you search him out there was a situation where even he did some work improperly and got caught.

MA and local town permitting and code requirements were in place long before cable TV.

After looking again at pics the ficture wall looks like regular drywall?!!? Which is a horrid site and yes it takes one bad installler to ruin it for every good installer. So yes by codes and inspection to weed out the bad installers so be it...

It was painful on the wallet to redo, but finally found some good, competent contractors and the proper bathroom renovation are complete! This forum was so great. Thank you all for the input. I would have liked mitered edges but the skill set seems to be lacking. I"ll take properly prepped, even and waterproofed walls.

The tile looks great and I love the large mirror and your light fixture. Do you know what your contractor used to waterproof? I like the way you handled the window. I did something very similar in my bathroom.

Thanks so much for all your input. Seriously. Not sure what the waterproof was called-I was curious since it wasn’t red. He did text me the membrane name but I may have deleted it. You were right-it had to be redone for sure. The discussion escalated into coding at some point but I sure learned a lot. Putting out some other smallee fires. Take care

ps i think It’s showerseal?

Showerseal dries to a dark green and I was curious about the black, but the blue bucket and the black color makes me thing that it's Laticrete 9235.

That also sounds familiar. Yeah I hadn’t seen black waterproof membrane so was also curious.