Seems high to me but my Water Furnace ground loop system was installed in 2003. Your field system should be a one time cost. I talked to a guy about replacing my system's unit; not because it's not working but being proactive. The Feds have a 30% tax credit for geo thermal systems installed this year. So, you're looking at $21k savings if you're a US resident. It's scheduled to drop to 26% in 2020 and phase out after 2021.

How large is the house, where is it located? Is this a new build?

wow. many times the cost of conventional.

Do you really need 3T for your garage/shop? Can you just insulate and install ashp. Are you working in your shop winter / summer? Feel like 7K airsource would save you a bit over 36K garage geothermal

New build. 2 buildings: 3200 sq ft and 3700 sq ft. Central NC. open bar joists, exposed ductwork. Loft like. Very efficient (almost passive house)

Want geothermal for low noise outside, longevity and variable everything

Smaller building lower load due to very few windows

We work in shop year round. Really don’t want air source due to noise and outdoor unit ugliness

It looks like you're considering two separate closed-loop systems. Is open-loop an option? That may reduce the cost somewhat.

Are you getting two new ERV systems, or just one new & one existing. By the time you subtract those from the total, plus the extra work (range hood, etc), and divide what's left in half I'm guessing somewhere in the $30k range each, which is high but in my mind not totally out of the ball park.

For a few thousand dollars you could put up a barrier to hide the outdoor air sourced units. It would also cut down the noise.

Be aware the tax credits will be ending after 2021. You have to determine if your installer will still be the residential geothermal business when he can't subsidize is $72,555 price tag. It may be difficult to get service 5 - 10 years from for a residential geothermal system.

Can I offer a bit of advice... Request a flow center for each. Pressure cart makes it difficult to service

"....lot of difficulty finding an installer."

He's getting these numbers and doesn't need your work. The trades were killed in '08. It's taken us a decade, we depleted our 401K's to stay alive, but it's payback time.

" but it's payback time."

Make sure you let your potential customers know that's your attitude when you submit bids.

Comparing to what I just paid for a 9 ton system that is a high price. You should be at around 55k. Not too bad after you get the 30% tax credit plus whatever your state does for you.

Joe, you make no sense. You have such a toxic outlook it's truly sad. Just because you want to slam people with exorbitant pricing doesn't mean everyone follows your mindset. I've read your rants in other threads. Really sad stuff.

$56k was our budget. We have known and used this contractor for 20+ years, doing a geothermal in our existing house in 2009 so we are not exactly fair weather customers. We have also referred several whole house replacements

Thank you for the comments

The federal tax credit is / will be nice but it won’t help my budget

"Make sure you let your potential customers know that's your attitude when you submit bids."

I never bid; "competitors" never set my rates. If I can't sell you my value, I don't deserve your business. Business has never been better.

SaltiDawg:

"Yup really sad.... and continually spamming."

Yeah, find me a "spam" post of mine that wasn't an answer to another poster's question. Good luck.

By the way, if you think you're getting any business from posting here, spam or not, you are sadly mistaken. I've gotten a Starbucks gift card, a $300.00 minimum job, and a small consultation in 5 years. Lotta nice "thank yous" though.

By the way, if you think you're getting any business from posting here, spam or not, you are sadly mistaken. I've gotten a Starbucks gift card, a $300.00 minimum job, and a small consultation in 5 years. Lotta nice "thank yous" though.

And an IOU for ice cream.

Re Brad Smith:

“It looks like you're considering two separate closed-loop systems. Is open-loop an option? That may reduce the cost somewhat… I'm guessing somewhere in the $30k range each, which is high but in my mind not totally out of the ball park…”

That’s all true (2-3ton systems drilled 150ft/ton). Have you discussed any other ground loop configurations, such as, horizontal, horizontal slinky, vertical slinky, pond loop or opened loop?

WaterFurnace would likely be my first choice – and I would insist on my brand, my model.

The detailing of your quote is very thin and leaves a lot to be desired. I know a lot of contractors like it that way as they feel the less said the more wiggle room they have if something goes wrong. Since you’ve done this before and this is not your first rodeo, I’d ‘torture’ them with detail and have it all spelled out in the contract, after all, it’s your

money and you’re left with the headaches.

There’s no clear mention of whether this will be a pressurized or non-pressurized system, or ground loop fluid chemistry. It ‘sounds’ like it might be pressurized.

No mention of headers, buried, inside the envelope – or none! No mention of gauges to monitor temperature and flow of ground loop fluids. No mention of the installation of ground loop fluid cut-off ball valves for ease of servicing or balancing valves.

“Sized for potable water only” What exactly does that mean!

Ask them to detail exactly everything this contact does not include – including what are these ‘Limitations’ on warranties!

What happens if your boreholes need 60-feet of steel casing – each (I know, extreme case)? It’s a sickening discussion to have after the fact.

I could go on… but I don’t want to depress or discourage you. I do believe you’re on the right track!

IMPO

SR

jj....that quote is 'INSANE'!!! ALLOT of them try to take advantage and make ALLOT of profit because it's something 'new'......COMPLETE RIPOFF!!!!!! You might want to go over to greenbuildingtalk.com and ask them.

Robin. That quote is for two system for two larger structures and the ducting in those structures. The "Bosch method" is nothing other than a statement that the installer will be sizing by cooling, [ not heating] and then oversize by 25%.

They will bring a rig to drill 150 ft. Into a possible solid rock. So the quote is not that insane. I am more than capable of installing my own geothermal and would never pay that price. And I agree with Joseph. .. the contractor is saying I am getting my 401 back.

=

Personally I think the industry will be decimated without lthe subsidies. The long life claims are severely overstated .

fsq4cw - thanks for the feedback. And agree it's light on details. It also doesn't have dedicated dehumidification - which is something that - based on the low cooling loads - is something we are convinced that we need.

Not familiar with the "slinky" options - but horizontal / open isn't an option for us. Despite having acreage, we have some space limitations due to retaining walls.

We are considering some other options - and currently working with a local non-profit building performance group to look at more advanced options / separate design and installation (realizing that puts more burden on us - but honestly - that's okay).

I just feel like this is up significantly vs what we'd had earlier, and it's gotten smaller and simpler. This also may be a function of the fact that the owner (who we are dealing with) recently sold the business and may be under different pricing restrictions - or the new owners have less love for geothermal.

Thanks - and will keep you posted.

Have you considered a direct exchange (DX) system? I chose this system over a water based system. One less heat transfer, wells only need to be a 100 feet deep, and just seemed all around better to me.

^^^ I will look into it! :D

Thanks

"Personally I think the industry will be decimated without lthe subsidies.

This is the problem with rebates and tax incentives - installers just jack up the price by the anticipated govt/utility refund.

The long life claims are severely overstated."

Yep. This might have been true 50 years ago but the quality of equipment and materials today is so poor and the installer/manufacturer won't be in business in 20 years, so don't count on a long warranty.

Get more bids.

RE taconichills:

“Have you considered a direct exchange (DX) system? I chose this system over a water-based system. One less heat transfer, wells only need to be a 100 feet deep, and just seemed all around better to me.”

I was going to mention this in my next post (this post). Great suggestion; lookup ‘Earthlinked’. One third less drilling, smaller footprint required. Properly installed could be a very good option.

Google ‘Slinky’ ground loop as well.

A completely variable speed GSHP should be able to take care of dehumidification just by its very nature of being able to throttle down to a very low speed and airflow over the evaporator coil. Adding an ERV would be a bonus.

Waterfurnace Series 7 would be my first choice and Series 5 my second. Synergy3D if you’re considering in-floor radiant. You have lots of options but first have to figure out the ground loop configuration and whether to go liquid-to-air or DX-to-air.

I also suggest contacting Waterfurnace to see who services your area.

WaterFurnace

How far apart are these 2-buildings? It might be possible to go liquid-to-water and have just 1-system with zoning for both buildings, in-floor radiant, forced air heating & air-conditioning & domestic hot water. Other options for cooling are also possible but for later discussion if you get there.

IMPO

SR

Note, I do not know if they improved some GEO equipment was/is pretty loud. I like how the videos are shot with the equipment in OFF mode.

BT.....the price is 'TOTALLY INSANE!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!' Geo installers are trying to 'totally' ripoff people because it's something 'new'.....HORRENDOUS!!!!!! WIT....you know what do they do this???????

fsq4cw - thanks again - going to talk to a couple of folks about 1) Waterfurnace - found a local installer that does those and 2) the EarthLinked guy called me back and - we'll see if it's just marketing - but states that they do a better job at dehumidification because they run a colder coil. Not sure yet about the claim - but conversation will continue tomorrow.

THANK YOU all for providing some options and encouraging me to expand my horizons.

Here's some Energy Star information that might be useful:

• Geothermal Heat Pumps - Overview / Specification / Buying Guidance
• ENERGY STAR Verified HVAC Installation (ESVI)
• ACCA QA New Homes Program
• ENERGY STAR Most Efficient 2019 — Geothermal Heat Pumps

"BT.....the price is 'TOTALLY INSANE!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!' Geo installers are trying to 'totally' ripoff people because it's something 'new'.....HORRENDOUS!!!!!! WIT....you know what do they do this???????"

robin0919:

Could you substantiate your claim please? Do you have any comparable estimates of similar proposals in the area?

Joseph.....just go over to greenbuildingtalk.com and READ!!!! I've been over there for over 15 yrs! Again.....they try to 'rip' people off thousands and thousands of bucks because it's 'new'!!!!

LOL, just signed up as a "dealer" with the local GEO distributor for the upcoming build. They are willing to help with the design and horiz loop installation... Still not fully understand how it will work. My ManJ8 load at this point is 90k BTU, cooling total load is 48k (VS?). But the biggest GEO equipment can only produce 72k BTU - so I am 18k short of 99% goal. Other option is hybrid stick el cheapo 96% 100k BTU Goodman NG and run smaller GEO make the furnace stage 3,4. Let you know how it will turn out.

just_janni

"We work in shop year round. Really don’t want air source due to noise and outdoor unit ugliness"

youve talked to me about return on investment so now its my turn to give some info.. Im reading the book "musings of an energy nerd" by Martin Holladay and a chapter in that book talks about a builder who switched from $40k geothermal units, to $6k for 2x ductless mini splits(air source) and 2x because upstairs and downstairs. so, needless to say he does not recommend Geothermal as the financial cost vs air source ductless mini split is just too great.

ductless minis are quiet when not running at full load and you could probably hide them on your fairly flat roof like they do on commercial installations

DE - I agree. I think we could do it with mini splits. Unfortunately, the other half is 1) not convinced, 2) has a design preference for ducting, 3) is very concerned about any outdoor units disturbing his peace, 4) did not design the penetrations in the concrete for minisplits and 5) isn't a fan of the interior aesthetics (nor am I actually - but I would be willing to deal with it for big $avings)

Sigh - life is about compromises. I'll get another rescue dog out of the deal and maybe a barn...

so this thread actually got me thinking about - AC.

Lord. I have a corner lot.

the "front" of the house is west.
the working entrance (and expansive backyard) is east
I can't put the outside units on the south side as that's the entrance to the compound
the North side will have the outside sitting area.

so, where do I put the AC?, and now that I think about it you never see AC units in any of the glossy photos on Houzz or dezeen.

AC's in custom homes are like ninjas

See - they all have geothermal. LOL!

lol. that's a plausible explanation.i was thinking even simpler than that. Occam's razor. we don't see AC units because they just don't put in ac units. problem quite easily solved