Yes, you have chatter. Floor needs hard plating to achieve a flat surface. This flooring contractor does not own a hard plate system.

So now what?

Let me ask a stupid question. Does this mean they do every job like this??

"So now what?"

They get a hard plate and redo the finish again, removing yet another possible refinish down the road. Wood floors only have so many refinishes in them and you are looking at using two of them out of the box. Not great.

Yes, all the end result of their job is like this. You will need to find a new flooring contractor, unless the current one is willing to purchase a hard plate system. They can purchase one for under $1000. It is not as fast, but still effective. They can purchase a Multi-head driver and a set of hard plate to go with it. It would change and improve their sanding process. They can do away with their screening process, which is what they are doing for a final sanding.

I am asking because when I sent him photos yesterday, he said he didn’t see anything of course and didn’t know what I was talking about. He’s already been a little nasty with me leading up to this and I’m not sure how to proceed at this point.

Says he’s doing this for 25 years. I’m the only pain in the ass that brings this t his attention??

He does not realize that what was considered acceptable 25 years ago isn’t today.

Nwfa inspector

Chatter is usually caused by drum/belt sander issues that develop over time. 30 years ago it wasn't as much as a cause for concern but standards have gotten tighter over the years with introductions of machinery and practices to eliminate it.

So I wouldn’t be crazy to ask him to redo it and see if he has the right equipment or to ask for a refund. Ha!

Not at all.

Thank you so much. I reached out, he relied by text and said he’ll fix it, I’m not sure what he’s going to propose but how can I ensure this won’t happen again? I’ve already resolved in my mind that if he’s willing to refinish I’m only going to let him do the downstairs and I’d live with it in the bedrooms. It seems not to be as apparent up there. I should note that they did start upstairs and if I’m not mistaken it was a different man working on the lower floor. I cannot determine if it doesn’t appear as bad bc of the lighting or it was a different sander/machine.
I’m also concerned about how much life my new planks have left after this. See the photos of the bedrooms here

It's a difference caused by perspective. When the light source is perpendicular to the chatter you won't see it as readily, but it's there. Many older floors I look to refinish have some chatter or wave. It doesn't affect the longevity unless it's really bad.

Before he uses his big machine again, it should be gone through to make sure everything is in order. As the others mentioned the floor should be buffed with a hard plate or sanded with a Trio or similar. Sometimes the chatter is bad enough that the first cut should be on a slight diagonal so the machine doesn't follow the same waves.

Here's a primer on chatter marks.

https://blog.cityfloorsupply.com/ways-to-get-rid-of-dreaded-chatter-marks/

@live_wire_oak I thought about it, initially you know, that it added t the rawness of the wood but seeing it wall to wall, in the repeating pattern doesn’t make it look like a hand scraping at all and isn’t so convincing. That and the 20 thousand dollar price tag. I shouldn’t have to cover it with rugs.

Johnson flooring thank you so much!!

I agree with live wire, take a discount and move on. You are wasting your time with the chance of ending up with the same result, perhaps worst .

Even if he uses the correct machine?

They do have a point, which is supported by my past experience. As I mentioned, this used to be quite prevalent. Once you have some rugs, furnishings and (mostly!) window treatments, it will be less noticeable. OTOH, if you know it will bother you, the best time to get it done is now, while the areas are still clear.

There is a learning curve with hard plaTing. He will need lights and understand grit progression. There will be an improvement with chatter, but he will need to learn about the sanding scratches , especially for staining. Paper is a lot more aggressive than screens.

I just don’t know what to do. It absolutely bothers me

Unless there's a reason why it can't be done that trumps your desire to have it look acceptable, You do know what to do. I think it's acceptable to live with the upstairs, but not the ground floor.

That’s what I’m going to figure out. I absolutely need to have a conversation to determine if he is certain that he has the equipment to fix it. If he doesn’t give me the comfort level I need to proceed with him I will have to live with it until next time. He is supposed to be doing my family room yet. New install also. I think I’m going to have him finish that first and see the result of that first.

"I think I’m going to have him finish that first and see the result of that first."

With the same equipment? You very well may get the same result.

No, I’m going to determine what equipment he will be using. I’m so confused by this because he is doing several jobs at a time all over south jersey. I can’t be the only one having this issue. Or, he used poor equipment here.

I would INSIST the person who finished the UPSTAIRS be the one to finish your family room. I would also inform the contractor that the family room will be his ONE CHANCE to prove that a 'perfect job' is possible. Make it clear that the family room is what will determine the fate of the rest of the downstairs. Make it clear that if the family room has issues then you will be expecting a HEAVY discount. And I mean HEAVY.

And put it in writing what you expect and what is not acceptable and what will happen should the family room NOT make the grade.

In the building industry the professional (hmmmmm...different guys working two different areas in the house....sounds like an OUTFIT not a single flooring professional) has the right to fix his/her mistake. But they only need to be given ONE attempt. Should the 'fix' fail to meet industry standards then the homeowner has the RIGHT to bring in another contractor to 'fix' the problem - at the EXPENSE of the ORIGINAL person.

This is the 'norm' but it still comes down to your local building laws. Each state in the Union has different 'accepted practices' which make 50 different options depending on where you live.

Ahem...it gets tricky trying to get guy#1 to pay guy#2...That's why MOST PEOPLE will take a HEAVY discount and go from there.

And to be clear, guy#1 KNOWS how much it will cost (him/herself) to FIX this issue. To fix the main level will cost him/her the ENTIRE profit of this job. I can guarantee it. That's why you can push for a HEAVY discount. It saves EVERYONE in the long run. It saves guy#1 the TIME and EXPENSE of sending in someone to sand/refinish the entire downstairs. It isn't the MONEY that is the issue...it is the TIME! It sounds like s/he doesn't have enough of it right now...so you can take advantage of that.

And this is where a well worded amendment to your contract comes in. The family room will be the 'test' to see if guy#1 has enough skilled HELPERS to finish your job. If the family room goes sideways, then you KNOW this is going to be botched come time to do the 'fix'.

And remember: you've already had issues with this company regarding the stain. Now you have chatter in one area of the house (done by helper#1) whereas other areas of the house look decent (helper#2). The odds are not in the company's favour for getting this done nicely and without issue. Be prepared for that. A well written contractual amendment = BEING PREPARED.

And just in case you need an inspector: www.nwfa.org They have a contact list of Certified Wood Flooring Inspectors. And just for fun, go ahead and check to see if your contractor is on the list for Certified Wood Flooring Installer or Refinisher. I would be surprised if they are.

They are not. You live and you learn. J thought I did enough research!

So I thought I’d provide you all with an update on the debacle that is my flooring project. Contractor admitted the floor had chatter, that it had to be his sander malfunction, that he would fix it and it would be like new. He also installed the new virgin floor in family room. So...he finishes the job, last coat of Bona traffic HD. I take a look, and at first, chatter seemed much better, not quite as bad. I was ok with it until I noticed these large pimple-looking hard spots and rough feel to the floor in various spots. At this point, we text him and he admits again it shouldn’t look like that. He sends his men back to sand (by hand) and buff and re-coat. We tell him we can no longer deal with this and agree to give him one last chance to fix this. We’ve displaced our kids for days on end bc we obviously were unable to occupy the house while they worked. I come back this morning and while the bumps are mostly gone and the floor is much smoother, there appears to be no/very little sheen. The top floor that we didn’t allow him to refinish again has a much more pretty amber sheen. I’ve attached pictures for your viewing pleasure. Oh and the family room newly installed floor, also has chatter.
Besides the fact that I am not sure I even want him to step foot back in my house again, I’m concerned that if I apply another coat of Bona (satin perhaps) that it will just make the chatter look as bad as before. I’m in this for almost 20 thousand dollars and he ruined my floors. I’m thinking of getting an inspector and demanding a refund or suing him.

Wow. The standing pictures look fantastic. How visible are those little tiny spots when viewed from the normal standing evaluation height of 50"? How many are there? They can likely be scraped out or just left alone. If caught right away, I can usually scrape them out with my thumbnail and use the top of my nail to flatten out the finish. I see a little dishout but it's not alarming and will be less visible after rugs, furniture and window treatments.

Consider that nothing is perfect. If a human can get something to 95% of perfection, further attempts at improvement are likely to make things worse. If you're counting on your saga, or the pictures of flaws to sway the opinion of the court, I suspect you'll be disappointed. Wouldn't you have to fund a suit out of pocket?

I actually appreciate your comment, actually makes me feel a little better. So you think I what remains it dishout and not chatter? The spots were scraped out, yes. He did that and buffed it and they are much better, smoother. The only thing is the lustre. Here’s a dumb question. I went back and looked and saw that he used Bona traffic HD in satin. But it appear to have less of a sheen than the top floor where he used Bona mega satin. Is this just because it’s a different product or could it be because he hand sanded and cuffed before applying this last coat? In which case, will applying another coat help give it a slight more sheen? I do notice that the top floor has more amber tone, I know that is because of the mega color.

Sigh...The colour variation is probably due to a different finish. The STAIN is probably the same but it looks like an oil or an oil modified product was used and now the new finish is a clear coat water based polyurethane. I think you can safely say you have given these people EVERY CHANCE to fix this. And they have failed.

Bona Traffic HD is a two part (2K) WATER based polyurethane. It will not 'amber' (your word is perfect). Your 'brown' is going to stay brown forever. The amber upstairs is probably due to the finish over top being an oil modified (Bona makes an oil modified that does exactly that...add a pretty amber tone).

I'm so sorry they did this to you AGAIN. I am ASSUMING you AMENDED your contract (as I suggested). Now you have the full story that the 'contractor with 25 years experience' actually sent out 'guys' to do his jobs. The contractor SAME GUYS then do the SAME THING...again. Sorry but that was predicted.

Now for the tough part. Getting money OUT of the contractor. That's where it gets sticky. You can try to negotiate on your own or you can cut to the chase and pay (it could be $750 + to have all floors inspected) to have an NWFA Certified Flooring Inspector (www.nwfa.org) come out and do the inspection/write a report.

With the report IN HAND (do NOT hand this over!!!!!) you will inform 'contractor of 25 years' what is wrong with the floor. You will then tell them you expect a serious discount (as I mentioned before).

You must pay for the flooring they ADDED. The wood they supplied and installed must be paid for (labour included to install the new wood). Every piece of work that they did that was ACCEPTABLE (industry standard) must be paid for at the price agreed upon = full price. Every discount beyond that can be negotiated.

That's where the inspector's report comes in handy. Usually they will write up each room as they see it. That means it is possible 2 out of 7 rooms (this is an example) are rated as 'industry standard' and accepted by the homeowner. These two rooms get paid at FULL price (agreed upon by the square foot price).

Then there might be the stairs...which are now industry standard and acceptable to the homeowner. Those get paid out as well. If there was SUBFLOOR work, that gets paid out as well unless the inspection CLEARLY states the subfloor work is not up to industry standards. Now you negotiate.

The sanding issues with the EXISTING flooring = negotiable. The sanding issues with the NEWLY LAID floor = negotiable. The colour variation between upstairs stain and down stairs stain/appearance = negotiable.

Again, there is going to be someone doing a room by room assessment as to what worked and what didn't. And the work that is to industry standard gets paid out. The rest gets negotiated.

The person who PAYS for the inspection OWNS the inspection report. The only way you can be forced to hand over a copy of the results is if by a court of LAW (disclosure laws are quite precise when it comes to revealing evidence) or until the GC PAYS YOU the out of pocket costs to have the inspection done (which is why you keep a copy for yourself...while you OWN the report you can make as many copies as you so choose....go COPY HAPPY and give them out as party favours at your next party!).

Those are the things you can expect from an inspection and negotiating a settlement. A lawsuit is up to you.

@SJ Mccarthy
But the top floor was Bona mega and downstairs is Bona traffic. Aren’t those both water based? He said they were.
And if so can I add mega on top of this?

Well well well, the 25 year guy is not quite up to snuff here: "But the top floor was Bona mega and downstairs is Bona traffic. Aren’t those both water based? He said they were."

So I can see where this has gone to hell in a hand basket. Bona Mega is the ENTRY level Bona product. It is a ONE PART WATERBORNE polyurethane with high solvent content which puts it into the category of "oil MODIFIED" waterBORNE finish. It has a long and well established history of 'ambering'. https://www.bona.com/en-US/Bona-Professional/Products/Coatings/Waterborne-Finishes-and-Sealers/Bona-Mega/ The website clearly states: Natural wood color enhances the beauty of the wood . Those words translate to: adds a lovely amber (orange) tone to floors.

Here's the link to Bona Traffic HD: https://www.bona.com/en-CA/Professional1/Hardwood-Floors/Coatings/Waterborne-Finishes-and-Sealers/Bona-Traffic-HD/

As I suspected these are two different finishes. And the SHEEN level is LOWER on the Traffic HD Satin than with the Mega Satin.

To be clear, the SUPERIOR finish is the Traffic HD. This is the creme de la creme of the flooring industry (even my Loba snobbery has to admit that Traffic HD is excellent!). The INFERIOR product is the Mega. It is *possible to add an ambering component to the Traffic HD (for those people who insist on a floor that has more yellow/gold/orange in it). The gloss level will not alter unless you move UP to the semi-gloss.

I would NOT top the Traffic HD with the Mega. It would be like adding chalk paint to a Ferrari.

Mega satin is listed at 25 to 35 sheen level while Traffic satin is listed at 15 to 20, so Mega is slightly shinier. To be blunt, adding a coat of urethane that costs $70 wholesale, over a superior product that costs $140 wholesale, to make it a little shinier, seems foolish.

It looks beautiful. Why are you putting yourself through this?

It’s gorgeous! Let it cure, move in and enjoy!

It's an improvement compared to the rest of the project. There is still dish-outs. I do not believe that his equipment can remove it.

If, the particles are visible from a standing position, it is not acceptable. It can be picked off and touched up without re-coating the entire space.

Regarding the Bona Mega, Mega is a yellowing water base finish. It makes the most impact as a first coat. Does very little with subsequent coats. So, applying mega over HD will barely make an impact. But, why would you coat over a durable finish with something less?

I would have them redo the rest of the first floor to match the same system as your family room.

Note: The only way to remove dish out is with a hard plate system.

Bona mega hd is what he used on the top floor. It’s definitely golder even though it says it’s clear.

Then that's a function of other things, like wall color, lighting, wood color, stain application. Even regular Mega has very little amber, while the HD version is perfectly clear. LEAVE IT ALONE.