Some have determined ploidy based on pollen grain size, some by actually looking at stained cells and counting chromosomes, some are assumptions based on parentage. You can't really tell by just looking at the plants with your naked eye. Sure, if you created a tetraploid clone of a diploid rose, you'd see differences. But those differences between different cultivars aren't necessarily indicative of differences in ploidy. And while being triploid can reduce fertility, it doesn't necessarily eliminate it. If it did, we'd never have tetraploid roses with China/Tea/Noisette/Polyantha ancestry -- it takes just a few successful crosses with triploids to carry the lines down into tetraploids.

To say 'Lady Hillingdon' isn't really a Tea because it's triploid is opening a door to saying the same about many others, including its also-triploid parent 'Papa Gontier'. Teas began with just the few Tea-Scented Chinas that came over -- 'Hume's Blush' and 'Parks' Yellow' being the main two, but perhaps there were a few others that didn't arise from seedlings raised in Europe. Is "Smith's Parish" aka 'Fortune's Five-Color' a Tea?

They then followed two paths that included outside blood, not including those from Tea X China crosses. One resulted from crosses with Bourbons, beginning with 'Rose Edouard' (resulting in 'Adam'), and the next descended from Tea-Noisettes. The Dijon Teas had Bourbon and Noisette ancestry. Within those lines, certainly triploids occurred, and some are still with us today. I wouldn't be surprised if some tetraploids happened as well, when triploid Teas were crossed together.

In my mind, what makes a Tea is having a set of shared characteristics that can still be seen in roses with dashes of other classes. If we were to remain purists and say anything with outside blood isn't a true Tea, then about all we'd have as true Teas are things like "Bermuda Spice" which, even if it isn't 'Hume's Blush', is enough like it to have made people wonder. Think of all the Teas "...descended from 'Adam'", all those from the yellow Tea-Noisettes', and all those from 'Gloire de Dijon' -- are they similarly not true Teas? If so, what's left?

Incidentally, several of the red Chinas are also triploid, including 'Slater's Crimson', which came directly from China. If triploid Teas were that way because of red China ancestry, calling them not true Teas would truly make my head itch, since they wouldn't even have outside blood. Even the original Tea-Scented Chinas were hybrids between R. chinensis and R. gigantea.

:-)

~Christopher

..thank you both for your interesting and informative posts about Teas and chromosomes... I think my questions have been answered there fair enough... I couldn't wish for better....

Christopher, what "Slater's Crimson China" has been claimed to be triploid? I'm not sure how anyone could know that, since the rose is not known to exist in modern times, although there are numerous possible candidates out there.

As roses currently are, sorta can tell dip from tet due to familarity.

Tets are bigger in their parts but have also mostly be bred for that. A diploid rugosa though will generally have thicker leaves (just an example) so knowing class is a factor.

We've bred classes with fairly distinct characteristics and tendancy to a ploidy.

As above you can gauge with pollen with a cheap (maybe $25) pocket microscope that does around 100x magnification. To count chromosomes in cells will require at least 300x (but 400 may be easiesr) so not out of the realm of anyone.

It depends on what your goal/s is/are and if you are prepared for a little difficulty. Sterility can happen with tets and dips too if the roses are distantly related (ie china to rugosa) but is common with tri.

Generally triploids will have some pollen fertility and make pollen of different ploidies so it's not impossible to use them, you just might need to harvest a lot of pollen. Generally they are less seed fertile though even if they produce a lot of seed (see Sunny Knock Out)

Protoavis… many thanks for your input.... that's really interesting too about the microscope.. I've been wanting one of those and I can get one locally, not too expensive with 400x and even one up to 1000x... I suppose I just put the pollen on the glass, but I'll have to find out what chromosomes look like before I consider doing this otherwise they might be staring back at me and I don't know what they are ... how fascinating... thank you ...

Marlorena, this is off topic, but may I put in a plea for more photos of your garden this year?

Off topic, but since Christopher mentioned Bermuda Spice possibly being Hume's Blush....

I have seen some nurseries offering Hume's Blush, and for some reason I always assumed it was another name for Bermuda Spice, but now I realize that--like with Slater's Crimson--there may be more than one rose out there being considered for Hume's Blush??

Has anyone compared them?

Malcolm -- it was described as such by Hurst, who also listed 'Cramoisi Superieur' and 'Louis Philippe' as triploid, but mentioned that 'White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth', and the 'Sanguinea' / 'Miss Lowe's Variety' group were diploid. There was a more recent genetics paper that confirmed ploidy of many Chinas and Teas and other roses, and I posted that to HelpMeFind. I presume the 'Slater's Crimson' tested was what is known as 'Belfield' in Bermuda.

:-)

~Christopher

Marlorena -- checking pollen doesn't require seeing chromosomes. It's all about the individual grain size -- there's one range for diploids, another for tetraploids, and triploids will make grains that range through both sizes. It's not as exact as counting chromosomes, but apparently gives a fairly reliable approximation. To check for chromosomes, you'd take cell samples -- I understand that sampling the tips of root hairs is one source of rapidly dividing cells, but I've never partaken in this.

Bellegallica -- some of the 'Hume's Blush' will be "Bermuda Spice" but not all. Apparently at least one of the British rose authors "concluded" that the two were the same, but later doubt crept in from other rose people. But "Bermuda Spice" continued being sold as 'Hume's Blush' anyway. I think the one at Mottisfont is an example, and it seems that pictures of that garden's rose appear on HelpMeFind under both names. On the other hand, I think I remember Jill Perry saying that what Burlington Roses offers as 'Hume's Blush' is NOT the same as "Bermuda Spice", but I don't know which other candidate it could be. And Jill has what might be another candidate at the SJHRG. And I remember reading that some roses offered as 'Hume's Blush' -- but I don't remember in what countries -- is actually the same imposter offered as 'Park's Yellow'.

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks Christopher, but I suspect, even in Hurst's time, that "Slater's Crimson China" was not one, specific, definite variety. And while I have no reason to doubt that Bermuda's "Belfield" might be the true Slater's, I do find it odd (and troubling) that that specific rose doesn't seem to exist anywhere else at this point in history. One would expect such a famous and historically important rose to appear in various parts of the world, as has, for example, the true R. moschata.

Thank you, Christoper. Rose Petals Nursery carries the Jill Perry Hume's Blush. They're out of stock at the moment, but I clicked the "Be Notified" button. I'd like to try it.

Christopher/Malcolm...thanks for your continued and most valuable input... I do appreciate it and feel I've learnt a lot..

Trish... thanks so much.. posting photos has become so problematic for many of us so I take a back seat these days... let us hope this situation improves...