Some of the Hybrid Musks may make nice weepers, but they are going to have to be really tall with HUGE heads. Most will tend to be stiffer until they get long enough to pull themselves downward with their own weight. I fear those are going to require huge umbrellas to rest on so the canes don't break. You would want the most limber ones, things like some of the older ramblers or the marvelous Renae. Anything that makes stiff canes is going to tend to stick out far until its weight pulls it downward, which will kink and break the canes unless supported from underneath. Add you're going to need height to allow for that head size, so I would shoot for at least six foot lengths and those are a bit too great for Huey, Fortuniana, Pink Clouds, even IXL. You want De la Grifferaie for those and longer lengths as it flows sap like a hose.

The multiflora types are easier to bud because they have thicker cambium layers compared to Huey and Fortuniana or Banksiae. They require less skill and less patience and attention. They also seem easier to root to me.

As I've posted recently, I think some of the best standard candidates are the polyanthas. Pixie Treasures had Weeks bud a bunch of 3' international Herald Tribune standards for Mother's Day one year. I saw them in full flower in three gallon cans and they ALL sold in a weekend. They were GORGEOUS! I've budded Baby Faurax on a 4' Cardinal Hume whip and it was spectacular. Look at this Sunshine tree I bought from Sequoia Nursery years ago and which now resides at Kippy's garden in Santa Barbara. It's on Pink Clouds. This is Cl Margot Koster as a weeper in Rose Hills in Whittier, CA. And, per the script, it's supported from underneath by an iron umbrella. Here is the script describing it.

Because you need cold hardiness, how about the older ramblers budded as weepers? Is their season long enough to make them worth your effort? I don't know, which is why I ask.Look at this Dorothy Perkins standard. The once flowering ramblers are likely to be some of the better choices you have. Or, you might try things like Gartendirektor Otto Linne or Excellenze von Schubert. That Schubert photo is actually a standard. I think they'd be splendid for that use.

And, I know this suggestion is going to cause some wretching, but.... plain old Flower Carpet should be remarkable as a standard, and it may even weep. These "ground cover" roses are polys and shorter repeating ramblers. Google Flower Carpet rose standard. They're out there and may be some of the easier ones to actually buy.

Any of the smaller flowered, huge cluster flowering types would make marvelous standards. You want masses of color, like Weeping China Doll. I would go this route rather than larger flowered types, for their landscape color benefits, but things like Gruss an Aachen and Iceberg are also excellent.

Edit... If they're hardy enough, you should also consider climbing minis grafted to taller whips for weepers. Burlington currently has Cl Angel Pink, Cl Baby Darling, Cl JEANNIE LA JOIE, Cl Kristin, Cl Lavender Lace, Cl Orchid Jubilee, Cl Rainbow's End, Cl Ruby Pendant, Cl Twister and Cl Work of Art available and they may make interesting, repeating weepers, too.

Whoa!! I am reading and re reading, Kim.

" Oh, My Goodness !! So many choices and i am.jumping with glee ". :)))

.

Vap, I am 'dying' as you know to get some rose trees but a few weeping is definitely a must. I am so glad you put a this thread up .

If you want repeat-blooming shorter weeping standards, look for Wichurana Polyanthas. Alister Clark bred some from Wichurana Ramblers, and while they won't drape down far, they will have a softly cascading habit. 'Borderer' grows at my job, and I keep thinking how cute it'd be as a standard. If you look through a list of Polanthas, look for those that have shiny leaves -- that indicates Wichurana ancestry.

Another place to look for weeping standards that repeat is "groundcover roses". They, too, have a lax habit from Wichurana, either descending from repeat-blooming Climbing Miniatures such as those from Ralph Moore or 'Nozomi', or more robust Hybrid Kordesii types.

Oops....just re-read Kim's post and see that he mentioned them already.

Also look at 'Sweet Chariot' as a possibility.

:-)

~Christopher

I’ve often wished they had more weeping ones to choose from , but never saw them . I did actually just see a lot of the carpet roses as standards are Louies in Riverside . I think gruss and pink gruss would be so lovely, and what was that rose I killed from roses unlimited that blooms always were in the dirt ? Darn if I can remember. It’s gorgeous but terrible plant . It would have been nice too as a standard .. It’ll come to me . lol

I wish the older Weeks catalogs were easier to find on line. Gourmet Popcorn is one of the most spectacular standards imaginable. it flowers ALL the time and has such a great scent. It has a very formal look to it. This is the 2013 catalog I just found. Notice Weeping China Doll and Renae standards there. Twofers, such as Pink and White Iceberg, can be quite nice, too, but keep them matched. The two or three colors of Iceberg; Mary Rose and Winchester Cathedral; Winter Magic and Cafe Ole; Pink Gruss an Aachen and Gruss an Aachen for example, will make outstanding two or threefers.

Oh, yes, Baby Blanket made beautiful standards. Anything "drapy", mounding, "weepy" looks great hanging from a tall stem.

OMG!!! So much to digest! I'll post thoughts a bit later, but just wanted to say I'll probably grow them as pot pets so tenderness shouldn't be an issue! : ))

Chris, thanks for the heads about how to look at the leaves .

If you look through a list of Polanthas, look for those that have shiny leaves -- that indicates Wichurana ancestry.

That is very helpful and you did explain it better bec i did remember reading about Wichurana but in my head was as rambler. I know sounds crazy but i knew i must have miss something here or somewhere. ..lol

I have a lot to digest too and a lot more to learn.

Vaporvac, mine were pot pets too but even wintered in my shed they only lasted a few years. Picotee made it through the first winter and died the second. Baby Blanket lasted for about five winters though. It's really hard to protect that graft way up on the stem so the graft dies and the stem lives on. My brother tried once to graft a new rose on to the trunk but it didn't take. It was a fun experiment anyway, lol.

That's sad to hear Seil. Was your shed attached or detached? Was it insulated?

It's detached and uninsulated. I've wintered other pots in there with no problem but the high grafts on the standards just didn't do so well.

Thank you. This is the sort of information that's very helpful. I know Archduke Charles will often experience dieback in my vestibule and I've recently lost a lot of cuttings in the same place. I think all use my insulated detached garage instead. It's cold enough for things to go dormant but definitely not freezing or anywhere near. I've overwintered other roses there with success.

I meant to say insulated attached garage

Wow! I was not expecting such a vibrant response. I'll reply one by one before my keyboard goes on the fritz! Seil, thank you again for the info on overwintering and Baby Blanket and Picotee. I'll check with Burling when I make my order later in the spring. I'm with you on the HT standards.... I'm looking for something with a nice rounded habit. Lilyfinch, that's a great idea about pink and regular Gruss and all the other sports mentioned. They would look spectacular!!! I hope you remember the name of the rose. Jin, I'll look out for the leaf colour. I didn't know that info.

Chris, you're always such a font of knowledge. : )) Another great suggestion with Borderer. I think Lisa grows that and it's on my long list along with Sweet Chariot. I also wonder how Young Lycidas would look. I have a Jean LaJoie rooted cutting as well as Red Cascade and another RM rose, but forget the name at the moment as it's just a small cutting. I have some Drift roses, but imagine they're still patented.

Roseseek, thank you for the catalogue picture and various links and suggestions for polys. Gourmet Popcorn it's one I can get cuttings of so that will be convenient. Your description of the HMs is so funny, but you nailed the imagery! Those are probably best grown over an armature as opposed to true "trees".

Also, that info on rootstock is great. I'm using Multiflora and Dr. Huey simply because it's available! I intend to air-layer them in the spring rather that rooting in medium as I have some really long canes on both. Next up is exploring how to effectively remove the eyes and prep them. I never responded to your kind offer as I needed to be at a computer. I'll send you a pm shortly. I wonder if they use De La Grifferie for standards in Europe? The ones I saw there are huge and tall. In fact, I never saw the short ones we see here. I may have mentioned the most beautiful was a weeping one from the Grootendorst clan underplanted with purple pansies.

I don't "do" standards, but I wanted to share with you a very old one in NoCal.

And, yeah, I think this may have been 'De la Grifferaie', tho I never got close enough to be positive.

Wonderful! Thanks, Vapor, I received your PM and have responded. I am not sure what they use in Europe for weeping standards. I use a single edge razor blade for slicing out the buds (both to remove them from stocks and to remove them to bud) as they are as sterile as you might wish; are sharper than ANY knife I've ever seen; cheap and readily available and they never need sharpening. I've never cut myself on one, either. I have several budding knives around somewhere and none of them has ever been as convenient nor easy to use. The results with the razor blade are perfect and just feel natural to my hand.

Jeri, your standard looks more like I.X.L. De la Grifferaie doesn't have glossy foliage and it isn't prickle-free.

That is awesome Jeri. Whatever it is! Rose think I meant to ask you before Oh, what is IXL. I'm sure it will be obvious once you say but I'm racking my brains over here.

Click on the green text "standard looks more like I.X.L." above, Vapor. It's the link to the rose page for IXL on Help Me Find.

Plumeria Girl -- yes, Wichurana Ramblers are a thing, but there are also Wichurana Polyanthas. The Ramblers keep the R. wichurana growth habit of long, lax canes. Most of the Ramblers are once-blooming, a few have a smattering of later flowers, and even fewer rebloom reliably. Alister Clark used the Wichurana Rambler 'Jersey Beauty' as a breeder and obtained dwarf reblooming versions of them -- much like how Multiflora Ramblers have dwarf reblooming versions as well. 'Yvonne Rabier' is another Wichurana Polyantha. So is 'Marjorie Palmer'. So is 'The Fairy'. So is 'Baby Alberic'. While its correct identity isn't known, what I can tell by seeing "Belmont Yellow" at my job tells me it's probably got Wichurana in it, since its growth habit is rather similar to that of 'Borderer'. They all have shiny leaves and lax stems. Also, they're not nearly as shade-tolerant as the more Multiflora-leaning Polyanthas.

:-)

~Christopher

I have Yvonne Rabier. One of my favorite polys with its beautiful yellow stamens. It would make a very pretty standard. Thank you I have not clicked on that link yet, Rose seek.

Take a look at this reference from Help Me Find...

Australian Rose Annual

Book (2003) Page(s) 96.

Helen Pizzi. Cavriglia. The' Living Museum' of Roses.
Marie-Jeanne a white Polyantha by Turbat, introduced in 1913 makes a fine standard. Professor Fineschi himself takes wild R. canina that he finds in his nearby woods and buds 5 eyes per standard cane.....

Burling just happens to list Marie-Jeanne as available right now...

I see Kim already beat me to Renae. I have had Sweet Chariot as a standard. It was OK. I bought it at the same time as my Lavender Crystal "standard"--they were very short for a standard, from Ralph Moore's nursery. Eventually, I just took a cutting of Lavender Crystal and make it a "regular bush".

The one I am finding interesting at the moment is my Minnie Mouse. I have had this rose for about a year or so. I pruned it a couple of weeks ago and notices a strong cane (upright) with several laterals weeping off of it. I thought of making it a small weeping standard (and still may do that after this year). I have not heard of anyone doing that with this rose (doesn't mean it hasn't been done before). I don't know if it is a fluke of this one plant that it is making a weeping standard on its own.

It is a totally charming rose. Delightful striped flowers and the bees love it. Makes adorable hips too and has been used for breeding.

Yeah, that likely IS IXL, Kim . . . I've never gotten closer to it than out in the street, but I think as a plant, it's memorable. Just FUN.

I was reading the references for Phyllis Bide on HMF this morning. There are two which mention using her as a standard and weeper. Something which might be of interest to this thread...

My ears must have been ringing because just this very second I was considering what to do with Phyllis Bide! She's none too happy in her current spot so I'm considering moving her to more sun. Perhaps I could make a standard of her as well, although she's a thorny one! So many possibilities. My only worry is she might not bloom enough, but again she young in her spot which could be better by a yard to begin with.

I guess that IXL is only available from UCD? The subject of rootstock is proving compelling. After your reference to the Rose Annual, roseseek, I came upon a fascinating book from the 20's with a huge, intense chapter on roses where they mentioned multiple times using the moss 'Celine/Celina' for a stock. Has anyone ever heard of this rose as a rootstock or even heard of it at all? It doesn't seem to be available here, but it just got me thinking.

I also read about budding (I assume that means chip-budding?) vs. v-grafting with the suggestion that grafting might provide a longer-lasting join. I had never read this and as a newbie I have no idea why this would be. I fall into the 'study the H!@# out of a subject and then just pick something and do it!' camp, so that's what I'll do to start, but would consider branching out for a better end result. So far, it seems to me that chip-budding might prove more forgiving. Of course, this is all predicated on successfully air-layering the rootstocks! :-))

Well... I HAD VI Fortuniana and VI Huey, both of which DEMANDED much more heat than i can generate to root and push buds. I HAVE VI Pink Clouds; VI Cardinal Hume; VI Gloire des Rosomanes; VI IXL; VI De la Grifferaie and for warmer situations, VI Mlle de Sombreuil (George Washington Richardson); VI Atmore Lamarque; VI Marechal Niel to be explored for stocks. Why not? They love this climate; they root easily; they grow well own root...

From reading old annuals and other rose books, pretty much everything has been explored for stocks. In the early Twentieth Century, the Dutch explored using Rugosa whips for standards. There are many old accounts of standards budded to Rugosa EATING their final homes. Celina is a moss which CAN sucker. Do you want something known to sucker easily? That's how they were originally propagated and produced...digging up suckers. Weird things have always been done. Take a look at this field of Frau Karl Druschki budded to Mme. Plantier in a rose field in January, 1921 at Glen Saint Mary Nurseries in Florida, which, per Google just now, appears to still be in business. Would I ever consider budding on Mme Plantier? Nope. I don't want suckers.

"Budding" or "grafting" can mean any method of inserting a bud under the bark of a stock. Budding uses a bud. Grafting can use a bud or an actual piece of stem or cane. Sequoia Nursery didn't bud mini standards from a microscopic bud, but from small pieces of stems inserted under the bark. The same thing can be done with regular size roses. It is just not as easy as chip budding and requires more practice and skill. I CAN "T" bud. I CAN graft short sections of stems from larger roses as well as minis, and I CAN chip bud. T budding is the fastest for commercial production. Chip budding is the fastest and easiest to do at home, particularly if you're using a multiflora type stock. It requires the least amount of skill, attention and practice, and with the thicker multiflora type cambium, it's a breeze! Burling reports that Pink Clouds remains in condition for budding most of the year for her. It's China X multiflora. It has the thicker cambium like IXL, De la Grifferaie and multiflora. IXL is Tausendschön (which is a seedling of Crimson Rambler) X Veilchenblau (which is another seedling of Crimson Rambler). ALL of these multiflora and many of the Wichurana ramblers have been used as stocks. Dr. Huey is a Dorothy Perkins (Wichurana rambler) seedling X Gruss an Teplitz (a seedling of Gloire des Rosomanes). You won't know what might work well where you are until you try. I would suggest making sure whatever it is, it doesn't sucker. Preventing growth from missed growth buds below where you bud the scion can be difficult enough. Why include a root system genetically engineered to push new plants all along the roots?

There is MUCH room for exploration and experimentation. Some types are going to be easier to work with than others. You'll probably find some which refuse to be used as stocks. There used to be a Judge Henry Fonda in Mar Vista, by Santa Monica. Judge Fonda had a small mini nursery in his yard for his hobby. He stated he had tried repeatedly to use Cl Cecile Brunner as standard stocks and it refused. He attributed it to "genetic incompatibility". Perhaps elsewhere it might work...or not. It's certainly vigorous enough, making huge, thick canes rather quickly when happy. IXL can produce inch thick whips in a season. Once established and happy, it can be HUGE. If you Veilchenblau, Violette, Rose Marie Viaud, Amethyste or any of the other multiflora ramblers, and you're comfortable they are not infected with RMV, they should make just as good stocks as any of the ones we've discussed. And, you really don't have to have strong whips for standard stocks. Plain old rambler canes as long as they are straight, can make good trunks, as long as they are thick enough for you to bud to them. No matter what is used, they have to be securely staked or they are liable to break in the wind. Jeri's photo supports itself because the head is kept so small and the plant is quite old. If they allowed the head to get huge, eventually the trunk would be in danger of being snapped by the wind. Of course, the thicker they are when you bud them, the easier it should be to actually accomplish it.