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mainemayne

Wrong thinset used for LFT tile... Lippage, Wrong Layout HELP Please

6 years ago

Our floor installation began a couple weeks ago. $10k worth of large 8x48" Wood look porcelain for around 2200sq ft.


After day 1 or 2, we visited the house and noticed issues with lippage, uneven grout lines and feeling minor undulations throughout the floor. We met up the next morning with our contractor, who had brought in reinforcements to fix the issues. The new guys also recommended they start using the big wedge tile spacers instead of the tiny rubber spacers they had been using.


They continue the floor for the next few days, but upon later re-inspection we're still noticing the same issues in addition to duplicate tiles placed adjacent. After seeing it throughout the house in more rooms, it dawned on us that the stagger was also wrong. We had requested the tile be laid out in thirds -- the box also states that the recommended stagger is 33% or 1/3. I didn't notice it initially, but they botched the layout and went with 1/8ths staggered (6" cuts) vs 1/3rds (16" cuts). I feel this makes the floor look more choppy and creates this diagonal pattern that I'm really not a fan of. My contractor said they didn't measure the entire length of the tile to get the proper offset.... unbelievable.


After the entire house was complete, I discovered that the wrong thinset was used from the beginning. The bags state "for tiles <15lb", which got me researching to easily find that you're supposed to use LFT "Large Format Tile" mortar to support the weight of the tile, avoid the thinset pulling on the tile underneath, and most of all to create an even surface and avoid lippage. I'm not sure how I was the one to catch the issue when there was the same label on 50+ bags. The lack of use of proper LFT Mortar is what I believe to be the cause for the majority of issues. He said they really caked on the regular thinset underneath beyond the recommended amount to ensure max coverage, and doesn't feel its as big of a deal as I do. To make matters worse, there was no leveling of our subfloor -- it wasn't even brought to my attention that it needed to be done. You can really feel the unevenness under your feet.


Contrary to how it might sound, I do like my contractor and we have a good friendly relationship right now - I can tell he cares about our happiness and he has guaranteed that he will fix any lippage issues. But, I can't help but feel extremely frustrated that the labor on $10k in flooring material wasn't done properly. It's such a huge portion of our remodel and and a very important part of it to get right. We told him that if we had unlimited money, we'd rip it all out and have it redone. We're currently on a temporary hold as he was asking for more money for the job (I've paid half), but I've told him that I need to inspect the entire floor including the living room that has piles of our stuff that didn't make it to storage. We have about 4 other contracts with him (plumber, cabinets & 2 bathrooms) that are half paid as well but not fully underway.


I'm just not sure how to continue and I want to be sure my expectations are reasonable. The floors are already covering everything but our master bath and I don't know what recourse I have here. The guy is BBB accredited & bonded/licensed/insured -- Do I have any options?














Comments (6)

  • 6 years ago

    Thanks Millworkman. I should add that our contract together was for labor only and I was to purchase the materials -- I purchased the tile & grout. However, the thinset was purchased by him alone (using my credit card) and I had no idea. Had I been there at Home Depot with him, I would have definitely read the label and caught it. He had the audacity to ask me if I placed any blame on the place where we bought the tile (thinking they should have told me the appropriate materials to buy), or if I blamed him exclusively. I told him: "as my contractor and the one overseeing the installation, I trusted you to pick the appropriate materials for the job".


    We have a flooring inspection tomorrow morning that I hope will give me enough talking points to ask for it to be redone and go from there. But with $10k in materials, I'm not confident he'll oblige. Alternative is to ask for a refund on the $6k I've already paid on the contract and have someone else install it, but with several outstanding contracts with him that could get ugly.

  • 6 years ago

    A friend's mother decided to complain to the contractor overseeing the gut-renovations of the two bathrooms in the house (the plan was to do the master bath first and then proceed on doing the other so as to have the ability to use one over the entire duration) - he was always disappearing at different times and returning in 20 minutes, two hours, forty five minutes - and all of this without any attempt at giving an explanation, that is, when when he and his crew managed to show up to work. When she finally was fed up enough to complain, it was because both bathrooms were to some degree incomplete and unable to be used and he managed to pick up someone else's sink and tub/shower hardware - it wasn't what she ordered and gave him the pickup invoice for. He didn't react well, and decided to take the hardware, stop all work, and on his way out he shut off the water at the house's connection to the main which was accessed through a panel in the sidewalk in front of the house. It was a Friday, and the fourth of July weekend, oh and he also ignored all calls and messages from her.

    She was eventually able to get another contractor out to finish the project, the wait on the estimate for completing everything took a week but it wasn't fully done until a month later. As far as the water situation went, she felt like there wasn't any other choice but to pay for an emergency call with a plumber over 4th of July weekend to get the water back on in the house.

    Hope for your contractor to do the right thing, but be prepared for him to do things that are a varying level of bad - which can and does happen more often than one would hope or expect. The part where he asked you if you felt that it was *where* the thinset was purchased that was to blame, or *him*, has me a little concerned about how likely you'll be able to succeed in getting him to "make it right" with your flooring.

    mainemayne thanked Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse
  • 6 years ago

    Oh boy. This is where things get ugly. We have to 'split' the blame into small measurable units. Here we go.


    The homeowner picked the tile (was it rectified? Square edged or eased edge?) and the grout (I'm assuming you picked the COLOUR and not the quality?). You picked the FINISHES. OK. The 'look' is on you.


    The GC chose NOT to QUOTE for the subfloor work (preparation should be $2-$4/sf x 2200sf = $4400 - $8800 for this job). Which means you did NOT pay for subfloor work.


    A wonky subfloor = wonky tiled flooring. As cruel as this sounds, you got what you paid for. $0 paid subfloor prep = $0 owing for subfloor prep offered.


    Next point: The GC picked the STRUCTURAL MATERIALS. That's on HIM. His choice of 'thinset' (LFT requires a different technique) was wrong. That one's on him. His installers did NOT use the proper spacing requirements. Again, the GC OWNS the work his subcontractors produce. Again, this is on him.


    At this point, this requires a redo. And I mean complete gut and removal, repurchase (if the grout has not gone down you might be able to salvage ++ of these tiles....*might) and reinstall.


    The GC owes you:

    1. Replacement tiles for the one's that cannot be salvaged
    2. Proper thinset/mortar materials
    3. PROPER TILE SETTERS not just 'some guys' who use a trowel!!! His workers = his headache!
    4. Proper leveling system and staggered 1/3 off-set tile setting
    5. Quote for subfloor preparation

    What you owe the GC:

    1. Payment for subfloor preparation (budget for $2 - $4/sf...just to be safe)


    You did not pay for subfloor prep. Sadly, both of you owe this to one another. The GC needs to FINISH his quote and you need to PAY the price for subfloor prep once the final bill (labour + materials) come in.


    As someone in the flooring industry, I have seen enough flooring mistakes to last a lifetime. This is an expensive lesson that the GC MUST LEARN. Don't feel 'bad' about this. Obviously he's skated by on flooring up to this point. He thought he could do it again...but he thought wrong. Now he pays the price for not knowing something he ought to have known.


    What you owe yourself: A critique of the overall work of the GC. You need to ask yourself if your GC messed up on such a massive job, is there anything else they messed up on?


    I do not wish to scare you, but a bad flooring job could be the indicator for other problems with this build. Please make sure you move cautiously with any of the other work that has been done or is supposed to be done in the future.


    Obvious places to look: Plumbing and Electrical. These require expensive professionals (in a hot Canadian market a Red Seal Plumber or Electrician bills $180/hr = more per hour than a Family Physician = $122/hr). A PROFESSIONAL tile setter is one of the other BIG EXPENSES on a build. They are so expensive that many GCs (yours included) will try to save money by using 'guys who swish a trowel'.


    If your GC cheaped out on tiling, what else did he cheap out on?


    mainemayne thanked SJ McCarthy
  • 6 years ago

    Thank you very much SJ -- the tile is rectified. Here are a couple photos of how clean the edges are. We picked the grout and chose the quality - Mapei Flexcolor CQ in Charcoal. The whole house is mostly grouted save for maybe 300sqft.



  • 6 years ago

    The square edge is making the situation worse because it feels sharp underfoot. An eased edge (rounded) on a tile makes it feel better underfoot. If a wonky subfloor is causing a waviness to the floor, a square edge (which is very sharp) is making this feel worse than it has to feel.


    The square edge isn't the main problem but it is exacerbating the feeling underfoot. It is very unforgiving - both visually and physically. I'm sorry but your choice of tile has caused 5% of what you are experiencing.


    A tile professional would normally recommend against a tile edge like this for this very reason. And many tile installers do not shop at Home Depot.