lkayetwvz5

So what happened to all the OGRs?

lkayetwvz5
18 days ago

Except for teas which are mentioned by folks down south, and a few hybrid perpetuals, there is not much mention of old garden roses anymore. I used to have a bunch -- all types - damasks, gallicas, bourbons, portlands and hybrid perpetuals. They were great until the 4 year drought and the more I had the worse the JBs and the BS got. Is that why they fell from favor? I ordered 2 albas to try this year, never was fond of once bloomers but it's all in my head because my roses don't do much after the spring flush between intense heat and bugs and it has to really cool off in the fall for them to try to do anything more. So if you still have any and are in the east which ones have survived for you?

Comments (115)

  • Paul Barden

    @jacqueline9CA It sounds like you had crown gall, not canker. Crown gall is often fatal and is not curable as it is a systemic bacterial infection.

  • Rosefolly

    I still have a few of the once blooming European OGRs because I do love them, but they are not the best roses for my warm dry Mediterranean climate. On the years that they bloom when the weather is warm early, they only last a few days. Own root ones I planted years ago declined and died (with one exception). I understand that the ones the San Jose Heritage rose garden grown on Dr Huey decline, too. The year before Pickering went out of business I ordered gallicas La Belle Sultane, Tuscany Superb, and Rosa Mundi as well as the alba Alba Maxima. Pickering grafted onto multiflora, which is not supposed to do well in our alkaline western soils, but in my personal experience it is a good rootstock for these roses. Growing on its own roots, and the only OB-OGR I have that has succeeded that way for the long haul is the damask Ispahan, which I purchased from Heirloom Roses, long, long ago when old roses were their specialty. They had quite a long list in those days. I got it sometime back in the 90's when I was new to the Gardenweb Forums. Amazing how well it has done, my longest living rose here, over twenty years.

    But like others living in my climate, when I grow old roses I gravitate toward the Teas, Tea Noisettes, and similar roses that flourish here. Right plant, right place. Although I will say that you have to watch even those classes, because some of them are highly subject to mildew.

    If I ever live in a cold winter climate I plan to include some in a new garden, and would seek out those grafted on multiflora. I don't like roses that sucker heavily, though an occasional cane popping up is fine.

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  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA

    Roseseek, you made my day - I am in good company. Ispahan is one of my oldest roses, too, and I love her. Strongest perfume in my garden. What would you grow if you lived in a cold climate?

  • roseseek

    Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed. Well, there isn't any chance I shall ever go back to a cold climate. I did that in first and second grade in Elkhart, Indiana. I hated that climate then and I hate it just as much half a century later. Colder than a personnel manager's heart in winter; oppressively hot and nasty humid in "summer", all forty-five minutes of it. The rest of my childhood was in Alabama and Miami and neither of those hold ANY attraction for me after spending the past half century in the "land of endless summer".

  • alameda/zone 8/East Texas

    Kim, you sound like a dear friend of mine who grew up in Chicago. He HATES the cold with a passion! Lives for spring and summer. He gardens - not as much as I do as he has a job, will retire in a year. I dont mind the cold we get in Texas - tho I fuss when it gets in the high 20's. The summer, humid heat is bad......we all live with a water hose in our hands, but at least gardening really never ends around here - always something we can do. I couldnt live any further north than Dallas! Growing all these teas, noisettes is so wonderful!

  • roseseek

    I grew the old Newhall garden where there was a one-hundred degree swing from the worst of winter and the worst of summer. 15 F to 115 F. Encino was "milder" with lower extremes at either end, but still miserable when it approached either. Neither usually provided much humidity, but over the decades, that began creeping in. So did fungal issues and Chilli Thrips. Once the opportunity presented itself, the Central Coast became the new landing spot where it can get "cold and damp" because the Pacific is nine miles across the strawberry fields and Cecil Demille's pink sand dunes where he shot The Ten Commandments 97 years ago. We get a hand full of "hot" days with a smaller hand full of them humid. Otherwise, our average temperature here is a whopping 75 F. I HATE "cold". I HATE "hot" and I HATE "humid". Been there, don't need it any more, thank you very much!

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA

    Roseseek, you mention my old stomping grounds - Newhall and Encino. We lived in Northridge during the Northridge Quake and decided we'd had enough. I miss orange blossoms, jacaranda trees and my kids. Not in that order. I agree that coastal is the best spot there.

  • jacqueline9CA

    Thank you Paul and berrypie7 for telling me that my Belle Portugaise had crown gall. Sorry I am so ignorant! Luckily, there are at least 3 old old bushes of it I have spotted in my neighborhood, where the houses were mostly built between the 1880s and the 1920s. I am planning to get another cutting from one of them, and try again. Will plant it in a different place, however, as our town is planning on banning roses climbing up houses, because of the fire risk, and the one which died was growing 2 stories up my house. I used to get a crick in my neck from staring up at it.


    Here is a pic of the one which died - the blooms were my absolutely most favorite of all of my 120+ old roses:




    Jackie


  • Rosefolly

    Beautiful, Jackie! So sorry you cannot grow any more roses up your house, but the realities of fire danger are having us all change the way we garden here in the west.

  • jjpeace (zone 5b Canada)

    I learned a lot by reading all of your comments. Thank you Paul for the insight as well. It is always good to know some the reasons why ogr are not widely grown.


    I have to be honest, I have never really thought about ogr because I rarely come across them in my local nurseries and I for one do not believe in using chemicals in my garden, well as minimum as possible. Because I also have a short growing season and limited space, ogr would not be my first choice when buying roses. I do love the beautiful flowers of ogr but not the "possible challenges" that comes with it. But I have to admit that in the right conditions, they are very beautiful and worth preserving if you have the resources.


    I remember your beautiful rose Jackie. I am sorry for your loss. It is interesting to know that your town has banned climbing roses. I would never have thought about the association between fire hazzard and climbers.

  • alameda/zone 8/East Texas

    I have had a house fire [26 yrs. ago this month]. If flames get that close to burn the house, a climbing rose is going to make no difference. Beth, who used to post here, had a fabulous collection of roses and I saw that many of hers are coming back out again - so happy for her. I had one rose next to our house - Cl. Red Cascade, that did come back out and survived.

  • roseseek

    I wouldn't have thought climbing roses on the house would have been that much of a fire danger either, but who knows what might be in the right climate? My main objections to anything "climbing" on the house are the issues of painting and maintaining the surface and that ANYTHING attached to the house like that is a perfect highway for rodents entering your attic. Here in California, in climates which support them, a bougainvillea attached to your house is the perfect storm of all dangerous issues. The dead wood and debris which build up inside one of those unless meticulously maintained is ideal for rodent nesting and habitat as well as kindling for outrageous fires.

  • K S 8b Seattle

    I'm sorry for the loss of your beautiful Belle Portugaise, Jackie. It was a really stunning rose!


    jjpeace, OGRs are not inherently more difficult to grow in organic/no-spray conditions than modern roses. Actually, many of them are easier to grow because of better disease resistance and hardiness. When you think about it, the ones that have survived for hundreds of years are still around because they deal well with neglect and disease (or because humans have such a crazy attachment to them that they pamper them, but those are very special cases and in the minority of antique roses).

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    I agree with K S, JJ. You would love European OGRs. They don't need spraying and in cold climates the warm season is so short that it is not like you are getting year round bloom anyway. The Spring/Summer bloom would be spectacular. Alaska for me in z3 was a bit cold for them, but z5 they would be great.

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

    How terrible to lose your beautiful Belle and then to not be able to see it growing as before. You must be so sad, but I'm glad you can at least start a new one.

    JJpeace, I think the confusion stems from OGR vs. antique. I have quite a few OGRs, but most of mine are "just" antique or well on their way! I find most of them to be very easy to grow and maintain and have tons of blooms with great disease resistance if I read up on them. I think I've suggested Pink Pet a zillion times along with Maggie. They both do so well in our constant rain and humid heat that I have several now, whereas some of my more recent moderns have a lot of BS. (I'm looking at you Violet's Pride and Cinco de Mayo!) In fact, outside of the Kordes, many of my moderns are much poorer on BS which is my major disease worry. I definitely wouldn't discount the older varieties for fear of less flowering or disease. I often look for folks living near me on HMF and ask them what does best if they're 'no-spray'. That's helped a lot as has asking here and carefully considering the growing zone and condition of the answerer. I'm sure you know all this, but it's what I do FWIW! :D

    P.S. Another thing I've discovered are more local breeders, such are your Canadian ones, who breed for conditions nearer my own. For instance, I've found Paul Jerabek's roses to to have great health, beauty and hardiness. He lived in northern Ohio. They are not OGRs, but I feel if more widely grown, they could be those of tomorrow.

  • Lisa Adams

    I’m late to this very interesting conversation. I think there will always be folks growing OGR’s, but it’s definitely not the majority of rose growers. The new introductions have advertising behind them, and are therefore more likely to be chosen by someone who wants to grow roses. I always hope that those roses will be the “gateway” to OGR’s, for some of these new rose lovers. Forums like this one can help expose people to OGR’s. They come looking for advice about their roses, and sometimes discover OGR’s in the process. I also agree that those of us who grow OGR’s need to get others growing them. I try to get family and friends interested in growing roses in general, and OGR’s in particular. If they admire them in my garden, I send them here, and to HMF to look up those roses. I’m not saying I’ve influenced many people, but I’ve won several over. These roses are a part of history, and they have to thrive somewhere to still be around. Growing what does well in your garden makes for success with OGR’s.

    I think Antiques and OGR’s will always be a rather small part of the rose industry, but it’s up to us to make sure they stay around for the next generation. We need to keep the rose nurseries that sell these old roses in business! The nurseries that I’m familiar with,(that carry a good assortment of OGR’s), aren’t really making much money. Most of these nurseries are a labor of love, not money makers. I can’t stress enough how much they need our business to stay IN business.

    We’re still out here, growing OGR’s! Each of us that do, should try to pass this love on to others. Many of the wonderful rosarians on this forum have spent their lives promoting OGR’s. We need more like them. I hate to think that some of these roses could be lost forever. If you grow them, share them! Lisa

  • jacqueline9CA

    To be clear, they are not planning on just banning roses climbing on houses. They (from the look I took at the current draft of the law) are going to ban ANY planting whatsoever within 5 feet of your house - roses, trees, bushes, anything. They are currently debating whether small short annual flowers would be OK there. They don't even want wood based mulch there. A nearby town actually passed their "fire safe planting" law, and it required homeowners to PAVE the space within 5 feet of any house with concrete. This (mostly because of the expense) caused a rebellion, and folks started circulating a recall petition for the City Council, who had a sudden change of heart, and changed that part of the law.


    Jackie

  • jerijen

    Not a cold weather rose ... but nevertheless a favorite Old Garden Rose in my garden . . .

    'Gloire des Rosomanes' (int. France, 1826)

    Along with:
    "Grandmother's Hat" (Found Rose, Prob. Hybrid Perpetual)

    And:

    'Tina Marie' (prob. HP; color sport of "Grandmother's Hat"

  • roseseek

    I have always been in the "if you grow them, share them" group, however with RRD, Japanese Beetles, Chilli Thrips, Brown Apple Moths (with their quarantine areas), etc., sharing has become something increasingly dangerous in which to engage. If the material is going somewhere your issues already exist, perhaps. If you have no issues, perhaps. But, please be aware and careful.


  • jerijen

    Kim is quite right.
    I haven't seen any of those pests . . . YET.
    But I know that they have been seen in the area, and I am always watching.

  • oursteelers 8B PNW

    I love that Tina Marie! The combo of white and pink is so romantic

  • jerijen

    But of course, it doesn't always do that. MOre commonly, solid-colored, pale pink or white:

  • Lisa Adams

    Unfortunately, so true Kim and Jeri. I wasn’t thinking about pests when I made that comment. So....support the nurseries that sell the Old Garden Roses!

    Gorgeous, Jeri! That Tina Marie is breathtakingly beautiful. I like the solid color she normally displays as well. Is your Grandmother’s Hat picture a little lighter pink than usual? I’m STILL not sure what to call my “Not Louise Odier-maybe Grandmother’s Hat”. Whatever it is, I sure love it! Lisa

  • oursteelers 8B PNW

    Just wanted to say Lisa I was absolutely 100# done this year and I read one of your comments about Burling. I had no intention of buying any more this year but I really felt compelled to take a second look after reading your push for supporting small business.

    I will send pics of my Burling babies this summer:)

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

    TYou mean you're not going to tell us ell us what you ordered? LOL!

  • kittymoonbeam

    Plant another belle! She grows fast. I'm happy some of Beth's roses survived. I though chilli thrips might get my MAC but no she manages to exist without spraying. Once bloomers would be great in a chilli thrips area. Flowers come on before the summer heat that causes the thrips explosion .

  • oursteelers 8B PNW

    Ugh! Head smack! I ordered Cornelia and Darlow’s Enigma but I can’t remember the third!!! I swear I am losing my mind!

  • jerijen

    Of course, 'Tina Marie' is registered as being WHITE. And it, say, the Sacramento City Cemetery, she usually is white. (And their plant comes from ours.)

    Both Tina Marie and Grandmother's Hat are wildly variable as to color. Here's Grandmother's Hat in early April, last year.

    And here she is a few weeks later. It's like having different roses.

    Last year, I even got this:

  • Lisa Adams

    Thank you for posting those pictures of Grandmother’s Hat color variations, Jeri. I’m as confused as ever about my plant. I’ve never ever seen it bloom in the pale pink you show in your second picture. It’s always a bright, rich pink. I may never know. (And why is this showing up in italics?) Lisa

  • jjpeace (zone 5b Canada)

    Thanks for clarifying OGR and Antique roses, Vaporvac. I've never really thought about the distinction. Good to know.

  • Perma n’ Posies/9A FL

    Oursteelers, you will love both of those! Both wonderfully fragrant!

    Jackie, I am so sorry about your Belle Portugeasie...I’ve so enjoyed all the pictures you’ve posted of her, and have her on my “someday” list. I hope you will get another one. :-)

  • Lisa Adams

    I’m so glad you ordered from Burling, Oursteelers! I’m partial to her, since I’ve been there several times and got to know her a bit. We were there for MANY hours the first time I went. She’s so warm and kind. She insisted that we weren’t preventing her from more pressing plans, saying her only plans were to spend the afternoon with us. She showed us everything there was to see, and encouraged us to pick lots of fruit from her trees. (The peach pie I made was amazing. There’s nothing better than fresh picked ripe peaches.)

    I loved seeing how she propagated her rose cuttings for future sales. She’s so knowledgeable, and shares her knowledge freely. She also discussed many of her business practices, and I was beyond impressed with her desire to provide roses at as low a price as possible. With the high cost of water, it’s hard for me to imagine she’s making much profit per rose. She also said she personally believes it’s just plain wrong to charge more for shipping than what shipping costs her. She said many of her longtime customers are on fixed incomes, and she wants to keep her prices as low as she possibly can. She said that when she raises prices, it’s because she HAS to, not because she’ll make a bigger profit. It sounded like she absolutely hated raising rose prices, and only did so when her costs increased. She does everything herself without employees. It keeps her plenty busy.

    It was wonderful hearing about special events and places she’d provided rose bushes for. She told us about the roses she’d custom grafted for Hearst Castle, and the private event she attended after everything was in place. Sarah and I could hardly drag ourselves away! When we finally did, we had a trunk full of purchased roses, gift roses, gift perennials that she’d propagated from cuttings, and bags filled with at least 5 different kinds of fruit. All these “extras” were upon her insistence. We were overwhelmed with her generosity.

    You can see why I try to send her as much business as I can. She carries some unusual and older roses that aren’t often available anywhere else. She has a nice selection of Ralph Moore’s roses, too. The roses she bred herself were wonderful to see in person. I saw so many different roses, it made my head spin. It was a wonderful day. Lisa

    That’s Burling Leon herself on the right. The rose to the left is her own rose ‘School Spirit’.

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

    I remember when you went. I try to order from her most years.... that order for this year will be bigger than prior as she has so many I've been wanting that only she has.

  • jerijen

    To be accurate, "OGR" -- "Old Garden Roses" includes any rose (irrespective of its date of introduction) OF A CLASS OF ROSES which was in existence/recognized prior to 1867 (the "official" year of introduction of the "first" Hybrid Tea Rose).

    That means all of the species roses and all of the Tea Roses and China Roses, and Noisette Roses and all of the rest, are Old Garden Roses. Not "Old." Not "Antique". Neither of those words is a "thing," re. rose classification.

    The classification has nothing to do with where they originated, or whether or not they are remontant. It is solely based on whether the CLASS (not the rose) was known before 1867. I know that's a little weird -- but it's true. If I introduced a new Tea Rose tomorrow, it would be classes as an Old Garden Rose!

    You might want to read more at:

    https://www.rose.org/single-post/2018/04/28/Old-Garden-Roses-Shrub

    https://www.rose.org/single-post/2018/04/28/Old-Garden-Roses-Shrub

    https://www.rose.org/single-post/2018/06/11/Rose-Classifications


  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

    Thank you!!!I do know that and should have been more specific, so sorry if I led to confusion. I just like to give the Hybrid Musks some love now and then. : D I guess I also wanted to point out that just because it's Modern, doesn't mean that it's better than some older, but not necessarily OGR roses. Great links! I've saved them!

  • jerijen

    Vaporvac -- That's why, while my first love is, and will be, roses of history . . . I won't turn down a great NEW rose. I ain't that dumb. :-)

    I mean, WHO WOULD TURN THIS DOWN?:

    'Annie Laurie McDowell'

  • roseseek

    You make her happy! Not bad for a rose which "won't grow"...

  • jerijen

    You know, Kim -- That just CONFOUNDS me!

  • roseseek

    Yes ma'am, I KNOW.

  • Perma n’ Posies/9A FL

    Thank you, Jeri! That’s a very clear and succinct explanation. I’m never sure if my teas and Noisettes are truly OGRS, so thanks for that.

    Big sigh—ALMcD is sooo lovely...I’m still still pining hard for her! Someday, I just know it will happen!! :-)

  • Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)

    Dont give up, Perma. If i ever get one than i will make sure, it is two. One for you :))

  • jjpeace (zone 5b Canada)

    Thank you Jerijen for the clarification. I do remember reading about it a long time ago in a book about roses. I guess sometimes we use terms freely on the forum that it may be confusing at times.

  • Alana8aSC

    ALMD is a beautiful rose. She grows slow for me, but I think it's the clay thst she's in. I've been amending from the top , and she is sending up a beautiful thick cane now, thanking me, and the rain. She is not a big girl for me yet, and those blooms are so beautiful and worth it!

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

    ALMcD roots easily. I'm sending regrets to anyone to whom I promised one as all my rooted cuttings died. I usually split things up for winter storage experiments, but for some unknown reason I kept these all together in my vestibule where it apparently got too cold at night for their little roots. I'll gladly share again if I get more cuttings. : ((

    lkayetwvz5 thanked Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska

    Ah yes, Jeri, thanks for the clarification! In that case, remove the old HTs from my list since 1867 is when that category starts and add another 30-50 or so newer roses across the other categories like hybrid musks and polys. For me "climber" is the hard category to decide if it's OGR. Obviously it depends on the type of climber since an HT climber isn't OGR but a tea climber is. Some roses on HMF though are just listed as "climber" with no other designation. I presume "shrub" is a new classification, even though it's a mixed bag of rose types in general? Some of the less common classes like Wichureana or Kordesii are not clear to me if they existed before 1867.

    Guess I'll have to make a judgment call in a few cases or ask the experts here. Still if it quacks like a duck, or more accurately sings like a nightingale (like ALM), you call 'em like you see 'em.
    Cynthia

    lkayetwvz5 thanked nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
  • kaleidoscope eyes

    I have been thinking about ordering from Burlington Rose Nursery.But I have some questions.How much is a phytosanitary certificate?How much is shipping?How do you pay?I can see the list of roses on HMF......

  • roseseek

    You email her at Burlingtonroses@aol.com and request her lists. There are two, one for the larger roses and one for the miniatures. She sends three files, one each of the aforementioned lists and one with instructions on how to order, pay, etc. If you have questions about shipping, you may ask her in the email, but it's all pretty straight forward. If a certificate is required for where you are, she can tell you. The list on HMF is not current. She prefers to email her list.

  • kaleidoscope eyes

    thanks roseseek

  • lkayetwvz5

    I have always been confused by the rose Alchymist. Some books and catalogs list it as an OGR and show it's lineage as having sweet briar or eglanteria. But it's also considered a modern shrub or kordesii since it's date of breeding is apparently 1956 by Wilhelm Kordes. It would have had to be one of the first English style roses I ever grew, and mine was over 8' tall at it's best so was that a climber? Again climbers versus ramblers and which is ogr/antique and which is not.


  • roseseek

    Per the stated parentage, it is a "Hybrid Sweetbrier", the parentage being "Golden Glow", one of the Brownell Sub Zero Roses, crossed with a hybrid of Eglantine, R. Eglanteria, the Sweetbrier. Species hybrids are generally considered "old garden roses", probably due to rose exhibition/rose show rules. Your chances of wining iron are much greater competing against more "rustic", rangy, older types than something more controlled and refined.


    Size depends upon climate and resources. At the colder end of its range, it supposedly makes a largish shrub, like many of the Austin roses do. Unleashed in the land of never ending summer, it gets HUGE (and usually won't flower). Much of how a rose is classed will depend upon WHERE you're trying to grow it. Peter Beales wrote of Ballerina, that it was one of their most useful small shrubs. Let it loose in coastal Southern California and I've seen it eat a 20'-plus pine tree in Manhattan Beach. So, what is it? "Hybrid Musk"? Though it obviously has NO "musk" genes in it what so ever. "Shrub"? Where? Britain or British type climates? Not where there is no "winter". There, it is a large, mildewy and black spotted climber. "Hybrid Multiflora"? From what it appears and how it performs, yup. Personally, I would love an 8' "climber". VERY few in these parts ever remain that "small".


    Climber v. rambler is a bit easier to envision. Both "climb" because they get overly long. "Climbers" tend to be stiffer, more brittle wooded, harder to train without kinking and breaking canes. They often have larger flowers, too, but not always. Think of the type of wood the average Cl HT creates. Try bending that to a trellis and it often kinks and breaks. Have you ever tried training Polka? Imagine trying to force rebar to bend to your will...


    "Ramblers" generally can even be used for ground cover as they can easily lay pretty flat on the ground before building themselves into large mounds. They generally produce rather flexible wood, unless it is very old, thick and woody. Until it ages, most can even be wrapped back on themselves to "self peg" and created a hoop, tying it back to itself. Something the average climber wouldn't be easy to make do. Most ramblers are going to be hybrids of multiflora, wichurana, soulieana, arvensis while "climbers" are sometimes based upon ramblers, but bred further with other types to create thicker wood, smaller flower clusters and larger flowers. "Climbers" can also arise from other types...Chinas, Teas, other species such as Brunonii, Moschata, etc.


    Consider Dr. Huey, the "root stock". Huey is a Large Flowered Climber with pretty stiff canes. The seed parent was Ethel, a rambler with flexible canes and smaller flowers in larger clusters. Ethel was a self seedling of the old Dorothy Perkins, one of the most infamous of mildewy ramblers the world has known. Jack Harkness joked that Dorothy Perkins had mildewed her way around the world. This line of ramblers was then crossed with Gruss an Teplitz, a "China, Hybrid China, Hybrid Tea" (all of which COULD be claimed from its breeding) which gave it larger flowers in smaller clusters, and fewer flowers, plus thicker, stiffer canes, removing it from being a "rambler" and into being considered a "Large Flowered Climber". Clear as mud?

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