The space behind the left side of the island is too tight. Is that where the prep sink is?? Seems like an odd place. Can we see the rest of the house plan on this level?

You aren’t already working with an architect and Kitchen Designer? Plan before demo? Measure twice, cut one?

mark_rachel: Yes, it is tight. We will move island over to the right. Location of prep sink TBD. My current plan is limited to what I attached, but I will also attach the original plan, which we have partially scrapped (you will see it has floating stairs to replace the stairs we removed - these floating stairs are no longer part of the plan)

live_wire_oak: We had a designer for plan #1 see attachment to this message, and then changed our minds after demo. We were originally making very few changes in the kitchen, now we are doing full kitchen renovation. We have a designer to help with the changes we are making, but at this point we are losing confidence in his kitchen design skills from a functional perspective. I am confident he can make things look good, but not necessarily function well. I am hoping to get a bit of guidance here to mitigate this weakness. Luckily the demo that has been done will not be affected by whatever design we choose. We would have taken down the walls and stairs either way.

Functionally I prefer the second layout. The fridge at the end. The stove and sink across from each other. I have this layout and it works great. With the stairs gone you have that wall for a bar or storage cabinets. I really think the fridge placement in the first layout is problematic. A little awkward. What didn’t you like about the original plan? You might want to go back to the designer and see if they can tweak it to make it suit you better.

Is it correct to assume that this is roughly the blank slate you are working with? About a 21' by 21' square? Is the exterior (windows and doors) set in stone?

Jslazart: yes 21x21 is a good way to look at it. We had been thinking that we would not move the outside door (if there is a fantastic idea that involves moving the door, I am all ears). Regarding the windows, they are an important source of natural light (the other windows are in the back of the house, which is wooded). That being said, we are 100% open to moving/reconfiguring them.

Do you have children? If so, plan for them to be helping out as well.

So, the ideal location for prepping, based on your preferences, is the island. The Cleanup Zone should go to the wall, which also moves your dirty dishes off the island where they would be front & center and on display for everyone to see.

Most used zone: Prep -- 70% or more of your time in the Kitchen is spent prepping (preparing a meal, preparing a snack, etc.)

Least used zone: Cooking -- 10% is spent actually watching food cook, stirring, or adding ingredients

In the middle: Cleanup-- 20% or less time is spent cleaning up and that includes clearing table/counters, wiping down table/counters, loading the DW, sweeping up, unloading the DW, etc. Many of these tasks don't even happen at the sink! (Oh, and don't spend time rinsing dishes, they shouldn't be rinsed anymore if you want your DW + detergent to work their best.)

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BTW...it looks more like a bit more than 23' east/west (left/right) and 22' north/south. Is that correct?

• East/West: 5'11" + 6'4" + 4'0" + 6'10" = 21'25" = 23'1"
• North/South: 5'6" + 9'5" + 0'4.5" (the || area) + 7'6" = 21'21.5" = 22'9.5"

Are these measurements correct? (Note: the "||" is where there was a wall and interior walls are usually around 4.5" thick.)

To summarize what you want:

Pantry - ideally, it should be near the family entrance where you bring in groceries, usually the garage; also, an inside wall is preferable to an outside wall since pantries need to be kept cook, dry, and dark for food storage

Island facing the Family Room with your Prep Zone (not Cleanup Zone

Range - 36"

Refrigerator - 36" counter-depth?

Second oven - be careful about putting it under the counter. Wall ovens mounted under the counter are much lower than ovens in ranges. Please, go and see one installed before you commit. We did, and we immediately nixed the idea when we saw that it was so low - the oven handle barely cleared the floor! Instead, think about a stacked MW alcove + wall oven.

Lots of windows on the east wall!

Where's the Front Door/Foyer?

Could you please post a sketch of the entire floor? It lets us see how the Kitchen relates to the entire home and how traffic flows through, in, and around the Kitchen.

Does this look correct? There are quite a few missing measurements....

I would skip the island seating and add a 42-48” round or square table in the empty zone between the kitchen and living room. It would be great for family meals (more comfy than sitting on stools at a bar counter) and playing games or cards. The big table could be used for company, and sometimes you can use both tables for big gatherings.

Buehl: I will pull together some measurements and sketch layout of first floor over the next day.

Thanks everyone for your comments!

For sketch, you don't need to have exact measurements. It just needs to show how the rooms relate to each other, including doors/doorways.

But, for the Kitchen space, accurate measurements are best.

What is the little room on the bottom left of the family room?

This is a lovely space and the decision to remove the stairs and to trim the pantry to protrude as little as possible was key.

First, I highly suggest discussing your concerns with your designer. You simply have doubts about the layout from a functional point of view. Functional for you is different than functional for someone else (for example your designer). And honestly any comments on these discussion boards are so piecemeal. None of us know the house, you or your family, but your designer does.

That said, I can see a couple of things you might want to consider and then of course check with your designer :)

You mentioned that you have limited wall space. I assume that you want more wall space for storage? There seems to be one full wall in the kitchen. I highly recommend using it completely. No counter space, full floor to ceiling cabinet storage along that wall.

In the updated design, the fridge was moved to the space between the kitchen windows. Keep in mind this will block some of the natural light - as would upper cabinets. Since you mentioned that natural light is important, I would suggest keeping the fridge and any upper cabinets away from the windows. Floating shelves seem to be popular, but I have a tendency to suggest art and mirrors.

You also mentioned the empty area between the kitchen and the family room and that you like entertaining. The pantry wall in this empty space seems to be the perfect spot for a bar, if that works for you. There's no need to have upper cabinets, keep the visual clear and just hang art/mirrors. With a bar in that location, the empty space will be greatly appreciated and quickly filled by people.

Next is the door on the diagonal wall. Perhaps consider having it swing open in the opposite direction. You might be able to extend the cabinets (even if slimmer with the end piece angled) to the door if that works for you and the space. Also, the door opens to the corner of the island. I would recommend avoiding that. Although having seating in that position does help soften the corner, an island can be any shape and size you want (z-shaped, L-shaped, curved, or simply smaller,...). If you wanted to slightly extend the island (even if with just the counter top, not necessarily with
cabinets underneath) to follow the diagonal of the wall, that might work too.

I wish you the best of luck in finding the solution that works for you.

Alicia

Buehl: the attached should give you the information you requested. We put this together using a subpar iPad app, but I think it is good enough.

Alicia Home: In response to a few of your questions/comments:

(1) the limited wall space is an issue because in the ideal kitchen for me, I would like to have as many of the appliances (and cleaning zone) against the wall, and not interfering with island prep zone or island sitting area. For us, the area around the sink is not the cleanest area, which is yuck for people sitting at island and not great for prep

(2) we are leaning towards moving the refrigerator back to the original location away from the windows

(3) we agree that the door on the corner wall somewhat limits our options. We are evaluating extending the cabinets towards that door, but note that the window to the right of the door is a tall window and would therefore have to be replaced with a window that would only be above the counter (this is not catastrophic, but something worth considering. I’m any event, we are definitely moving the island away from the door and considering a very large L shaped island that would go into the empty space between the kitchen and family room.

Thanks!!

That sounds great. All the mess of cooking and cleaning placed away from island seating makes sense.

Go ahead and scratch my comment about extending the cabinets and keep the lovely tall window :) With a large L-shaped island, you will have plenty of storage, if that's an issue.

If you don't mind me diverting from your discussion topic, ...there's a long, slim closet placed in the living room that stops short of the pantry. It seems to create a small dark alcove in the room, but maybe I'm looking at it wrongly. There's a specific purpose for this shape, size and placement of closet in the living room? Just curious.

Alicia Home: you are looking at it correctly. That closet is just space under the stairs. It’s deep, but you have to duck your head to enter it. Not much we can do about that. See photo.

So that picture is from the back of the stairs?

That photo is the location between the pantry and the closet.

The stairs are in the foyer; they start to the left of the front door and take a right. The space you are looking at is when they take a right

Here is a photo from the front door.

I hate to ask this because I know it's a pain, but could you please re-measure? The measurements aren't adding up vertically plus some are missing. I filled in what you said, but please re-check them, especially L, N, and P.

Question: Does the Pantry have to go where you show it?

Buehl: see below for new measurements.

To answer your question regarding the pantry, we are flexible regarding its location. Also note that measurements J, K, L and M are just proposals, and can be any number. That being said, the engineer has always assumed there was going to be a room there, and the one part of the story that I left out is that the walls between the kitchen and family room were load bearing- several steel beams are being brought in to support the load. We think that the current location of the West wall of the pantry cannot he moved, but that is something we will need to discuss with our builder and engineer.

A=167”
B=43”
C=42”
D=60”
E=43.5”
F=210.5”
G=109”
H=43.5”, including molding (which is 1.5” on each side of opening)
I=22.5”
J=63.5”
K=70”
L=59”
M=79”
N=189”
O=252”
P=253”
Q=4.5”

Load-bearing wall -- definitely a key piece of information! I'll look at it further today. Thanks!

The load bearing wall is mostly gone now, replaced with a steel beam. More steel beams need to be added, and it may be the case that the pantry wall could move/go away, but not sure. Just as an FYI, the steel beams will also support a new ceiling on the family room, which was a two story family room (and is now a one story family room).

"We think that the current location of the West wall of the pantry cannot he moved, but that is something we will need to discuss with our builder and engineer."

"The load bearing wall is mostly gone now, replaced with a steel beam. More steel beams need to be added, and it may be the case that the pantry wall could move/go away, but not sure."

So, the blank slate posted originally is not correct? There's no wall and there's a door to the Dining Room. If that wall cannot go away and you want a Dining Room doorway (which I highly recommend), then the pantry cannot stay as it is now -- the wall can stay, but not the pantry.

Is the 63.5" west pantry wall what's left of the load-bearing wall?

Let me work on it. Meanwhile, this is the to-scale layout based on the measurements you just provided.

Sorry to not be clear - where you have the west wall of the pantry there is a triple stud that bears load 38” north of the dining room wall. I think that needs to stay. The pantry as it was drawn originally (and in this drawing) work per my builder.

Also, the studs for the entire wall are still there. The dry wall has been removed. I should have been clearer. I will take a photo for you in a bit.

Here it is. This is looking from the family room to the kitchen. What you are seeing is pre-renovation hallway. To be clear, the wall on the right is the dining room wall (i.e., to the right of that wall is the dining room).

Hopefully I have not thoroughly confused you. It might be better to ignore all of this additional information!

To go back to the closet under the stairs...here’s what we did: we have a pantry type set up under the tallest section, a closet under the next section, a pullout for shoes, and a cupboard for gym bags. See pics.

Buehl: Thank you so much for your input! This is extremely helpful. I have a few questions/comments:

1. Is it necessary to have a doorway to the dining room? TA few reasons I ask. First, we were hoping to have the pantry be a bit wider. Second, I was thinking it would look odd to have the two doorways next to each other. Also, we have a doorway going from the dining room to the mud room, so there will be three entrances to the dining room (foyer, kitchen and mudroom).

2. There is an open doorway into the pantry. We are not organized enough to keep this open for all to see our chaos. We were thinking maybe a barn door (which would require a smaller opening. Thoughts?

3. While as I seek the kitchen primarily as a center for cooking and entertaining, my wife sees the kitchen as the central hub for everything, this includes kids homework and art projects (which occur on a regular basis). The solution she proposes (which I think is a good one) is a larger island that is L shaped (with one end going in the direction of the family room). This would also help with our concern regarding the open space between the family room and kitchen.

4. Your point regarding the under the cabinet oven is a good one, and I don't love the idea of the raised countertop to accommodate raising it. What do you think about a double oven instead of range oven/second oven?

5. The windows in the plan are a bit different than what we currently have (specifically, the one behind the wall oven). See attached photos. Not sure if you are proposing to move the window?

Thanks again!!

Could something like this work to go into the empty space behind the island
https://www.houzz.com/photos/sophistication-contemporary-kitchen-london-phvw-vp~119819869

Since it sounds like you're looking to fit in a second oven without losing a lot of space, one idea you might consider is putting it in the pantry, if layout allows. A friend recently re-did her kitchen and did that. She has a full-sized range in the kitchen and a second oven tucked away for less-frequent use in the pantry.

I would add a craft/game/homework table at the back of the family room (in that transition zone from kitchen to family room) rather than extend the island. More comfortable to seating, better for a lot of activities that are helped by facing each other, helps contain the inevitable kid mess separate from the cooking, and allow for better traffic flow around it v. being a barrier.

I wouldn't want my pantry on display, either, but neither would I want a barn door which eats up wall space and doesn't work particularly well with the space available. What about a swinging door?

For resale purposes if not your own use, you need a door from a the kitchen to the dining room. Many buyers would find having to take food through the mudroom (past the powder room, I might add) to get to the dining room to be a notable negative.

Any chance of straightening out that angled door at the upper end of the kitchen? That combined with reworking the windows as Buehl shows would get you significantly more space on that wall.

Kristin: Good thought about the barn door. We liked the barn door concept because it would look nicer than a swinging door, but guess we should reconsider.

Regarding the dining room opening, we were thinking the same thing, but concerned how the two openings would look next to each other. Would that not bother you?

I agree - the angled door is definitely limiting our wall space. We are open to moving it, but we are running up against budget limitations.

Thanks!!

I don't find two doorways next to each other to be that unusual or a problem. I assume one or both will be a cased opening, rather than having a door, which seems like even less problematic.

Follow-up question for the group: looking at the plan, does anyone think the pantry will look like an odd protrusion coming out of the wall? I am concerned that it might not look like it belongs since it sticks out in the middle of the family room and kitchen.

It actually acts as a separator b/w the two rooms without closing the rooms up -- something that is usually recommended, especially in a wide-open space like that. Some subtle or small separations help relieve the giant ballroom or bowling alley effect.

It will look like a wall segment from the Family Room and a pantry from the Kitchen.

Buehl, we now have the pantry framed and it looks really good!