Kitchens are insanely expensive! Here’s mine. It cost over $31,000. However, and it’s a BIG however, it was all done almost entirely as a DIY. The ONLY part we hired out was for the fabrication and installation of the granite counters on the perimeter. (Oh, and we paid to have the 60” range installed because it had to be hauled up stairs.) We got an amazing deal on the range and hood, quite a bit less than 50% retail, and we replaced our microwave (countertop model, hidden under the island counter on the working side, not even a drawer model) the two garbage disposals, and both sinks and faucets. We kept all of the other existing appliances. (Fridge, dishwasher, trash compactor and all of the various small appliances we already had) The kitchen was a complete gut job, and my handy hubby (a very experienced DIY’er who also happens to be a rocket scientist who is amazing at woodworking) designed and built (and painted) every inch of cabinetry in that kitchen. He moved plumbing slightly, he removed a partial wall, he moved a gas line, he did electrical, he patched in flooring, and repaired drywall on the ceiling, he added lighting, did all of the backsplash tiling, and did most of the finish work. I provided ideas, and did all of the finishing on the walnut, sanded some intricate panels that a friend had laser cut with a design when my poor hubby’s fat fingers couldn’t get into the details. (That was actually sanding hell that I entered... lol!) and I generally helped in every aspect he asked me to help with. So yeah... all of our expenses were materials only and what little labor we did pay others for. (The granite) And that doesn’t even count the small walk in pantry we had added a number of years before we tackled the entire kitchen, so easily add another grand to the overall price of that kitchen. Kitchens... they’re expensive. Granted, we got a LOT for our money and the kitchen is high end, but it took us about a year to complete the entire project. It was very, very labor intensive, and the MOST difficult and intensive part was the planning of every detail. I can easily see where a more modest kitchen remodel would run over 30k if you’re not totally DIY’ing it... and MOST people should NOT diy a project of that magnitude. It’s not like creating a new garden bed or painting the house.

Actually Shannon I disagree. His kitchen is very bad. I am not pricing out his kitchen just showing him what things really cost. If you are not interested I. This post why comment.?He will get back the money as long as he does not do a cheap kitchen someone will want to rip out. I live in Atlanta and often advise my clients what the smart thing to do is. Skmom you kitchen is lovely.

“He will get back the money as long as he does not do a cheap kitchen”

No, he won’t.

Are you an agent in Atlanta? You have no idea what you are talking about yet you still talk. Please refrain from posting on things I ask about. Sorry if this bothers you so much I am not sure why that is. And thank you to everyone who has liked my response.

skmom: Your kitchen is beautiful...you and your husband must be so happy! I especially love the gorgeous island, the amazing range, and how the wall color makes the cabinetry stand out.

oreolucca1: We spent way more than 85K 10 years ago, with semi-custom cabinets, professional appliances, knocking out a small wall, high end finishes in the LA suburbs. It seems like a pretty reasonable type of conversation to have between realtor and client, except for the arguing and the unrealistic expectations.

Skmom - Great Kitchen!

Yes I know he is a little bit older and I do not argue as much as strongly disagree. It’s hard with covid he has gotten a lot of smarmy people on the phone to talk to. I just want them to get as high of price as possible. I help my clients with getting there house ready. I do not think he should spend more then he will get back. . But if his kitchen is relatively updated house could bring 650 in Atlanta. Many of my buyers today do not have the money to redo kitchens. I Believe based on my experience that around 45ish will work. I know this will not be top of line but will be nice. Based on the cost of the house it will be a good investment. His daughter can shop some deals for appliances. He just doesn’t understand costs. We get along well but this is a point of contention. He thinks 20k. I just smile and say I will prove you wrong. Thank you for responding .

oreolucca1 I don't have an answer for you but I did want to say that you are absolutely correct that some people on here get so unnecessarily snarky right away. They are like a plague on the boards with their unhelpful, rude comments and conspiracy theories about marketing research and whatever other nonsense I've heard on here. It really makes reading these unpleasant at times and definitely NOT inviting to post a question. I wish they would find some other website to haunt.
Good luck with your client(s), it can't be easy during these trying times! Stay safe :-)

Thank you Amy Lynn I really appreciate your response. Keep posting and stay safe.

If you were a licensed realtor you would have access to much better data on the average cost of a kitchen remodel in your area than the anecdotal information you can get by posting here. So, what are you planning to tell your client, “I asked people on Houzz and that’s how I arrived at a number?” You already have a number in mind. How does any information you get on this thread help to “stop argument?”

Protecting our privacy is not snarky. This is a site where kind, knowledgeable people create content and answer questions. We have been mined for data before and are reluctant to put up with it.

By the way, help me end an argument. How much do you weigh? How much money do you make a year? How much did you pay in taxes in 1995? Now do you get it?

Of course he can get more money for his house if there is a new $45M kitchen in it. But if he reduced the price by $45M, maybe even by $50M to account for the total pain-in-the-butt of doing a kitchen reno, he'd have more people who might be in the market at that price. If he shells out the money he might get it all back, might not. So he's out the money, takes the risk of not getting it all back, and has the pain and suffering of doing a reno. Not a good idea IMO.

When we bought our home we loved the neighborhood but couldn't afford a house which had been updated. We bought one that needed updating, and saved for 10 years for a reno. Best thing we ever did. If the owner had renovated, they wouldn't have had us as a potential buyer.

Just curious what are “conspiracy theories “about marketing research. Generally a kitchen renovation is quite a bit more than “marketing” anyway.

Sometimes kitchens can return their investment, or at least make the house sell much more quickly, which, after all, is a cost savings.

Some buyers simply will not take on renovation. Period. They don't have the time, money or bandwidth to do it. And a kitchen renovation is particularly tough.

I am a skilled project manager and worked with a pro kitchen designer. No real hiccups. We were still without a kitchen for a month. Imagine a working couple with four kids and high-pressure jobs liking that prospect!

Obviously not all markets are like that. And some real estate agents urge their sellers to re-do homes so they get an easier sale and higher commission. Every market is different.

oreo, you said the kitchen is 'really bad'. So that leads me to ask, 'what's the rest of the home look like' ? what about the bathrooms? are they outdate and bad as the kitchen? Is the entire home decor over 20-30 years old? Exterior? overall condition of the home? what about the yard? The roof? windows? AC and Heating? If I was a buyer, these things might be equally important as having a 'pretty kitchen'. I'm sure you agree.

So, if you redo this kitchen, drop maybe 15K (yes, if you know how to shop and know the right people, you can do all new cabs, countertops and tile and some decent appliances, for under 15K) into it, how is that going to make the rest of house 'feel'?

You've kind of opened a Pandoras box if you just do the kitchen. Doing so will just call attention to how old the rest of the home looks. Is spending 15-20K (and the time and hassle) to get an extra 25-30K on the sales price worth it? Could you even be guaranteed he would see a profit from just doing the kitchen?

If homes sell for 650 in that area, but right now his comes in at 575, or so, wouldn't it make more sense to do a kitchen and maybe spruce up all the paint, the bathrooms, and other current updates? maybe spend 40K ?

I don't know. Don't know what it looks like now, or what it's appraised at currently. You'd have that info.

All I'm saying is I wouldn't do just the kitchen to bring in an an xtra 10K if the rest of the house won't match it.

“Leaving basically everything in same area” is just foolishness. someone thinks they can just put new stuff in without carefully looking at the space ? And that is a worthwhile Reno? How about putting some real meat in the discussion and throw a picture of the kitchen up here? I’m sure u have one as the realtor ! No? Okay.... just get a new appliance package and call it a day. Old fridges and dishwashers have a way of degrading what can be a decent but old , maybe pleasant , clean space.

Following...we are in need of kitchen Reno vs facelift ..

How much will you list for, with kitchen as is? How much would a deep clean and cosmetic remodel (under 2K) improve the space? Will a 45K investment mean that you will raise listing price 45K or 70K? What are the recent comps? How comfy is your client with living among a remodel? Sometimes a remodel pays off for the client, sometimes it just pays off for the realtor.

You are a contractor arguing with client? Has the job started? If not, move on.

25 years of the same industry survey and a Kitchen has never earned back what it cost. Realtors just want fresh new spaces to make their jobs easier. Not to earn the client more money than they spend remodeling. It’s only in fantasy HGTV land that that happens.

https://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2020/

5 years ago we took our kitchen down to the studs but kept the same flooring.

My husband did the demo, electrical, plumbing, painting, tiling.

We used the basic same foot print, except we eliminated the kitchen table and added a 10' table height bar with a 4' table height desk at the end.

We spent 32K for cabinets, hardware, sink, faucet, soft close doors and drawers, under cabinet trash, custom lazy susan, knife block drawer, pull out shelves in the lower cabinets and GC. We spent 2K for fridge. 1K for under cabinet lighting. $800 for bar light. Plus about $500 for paint and supplies and the custom message center.

If you couldn’t make money on a kitchen remodel in the last 10 years then you were not very smart. But, those days are over. Housing prices and sale are going to start falling. If you plan on selling soon, just clean up the house.

Different prospective. Been looking houses online (no showings are available now). Every house I see, no matter the cost, I would gut the kitchen. Even houses above the range I'm in have kitchens I don't like. Make the kitchen clean and usable. Reflect the need for a remodel in the price. Less hassle and the new owners can pick out what they want. With the fragile economy now I would not be investing in a home I don't plan to live in.

I agree that it will be emphasizing the problems with the rest of the house.

I just toured a house that had a “vintage” mid century modern kitchen. It was in fact vintage, including the washer and dryer in the space, cooktop, and a pretty new 24” wall oven. It also included brand new granite countertop. What a waste of money. It would have been more cost effective to move the washer and dryer to the basement, move the kitchen cabinet in the basement that was missing a door and have it repaired and put on new laminate countertops and replace the cooktop with a range so there was a full size oven. Because there is no way anyone is going to use that kitchen as is for more than a few months. And perfectly good granite would not have been wasted......

I would imagine Debrak those homes still have some equity and the owners are trying to capture it.

of late .., sellers are waiting to list... are not being advised to lower asking price but sentiment is that 2-3% drop in final sale price will occur through the rest of 2020. The summer season of selling will occur in the fall. There is still a shortage of entry level price points ... higher priced homes are the most difficult to sell and builders are offering lower price points for new/ better floor plans / and guess what is pulling in the most interest? Home automation. Big remodeled kitchens Not a big feature but if you have the time and deep pockets , ok. Property in smaller areas will attract w this stay at home situation/ people want safety not so much in dense urban areas although they think that will resume for younger people in a few yrs again. seems like Extreme care must be exercised.

You know your market and you know what works in your neck of the woods, i.e. Atlanta.

There is oftentimes not a consensus of opinion on this site, and at times when there is a consensus, from my perspective, the majority thinking is not always necessarily right.

However, with your question, there are just generally so many variables that are thrown into the mix, along with the diversity here.

But it is clear that you, personally, got a great price on your kitchen remodel and your client doesn’t understand the numbers. I would say that your remodel price would be a very competitive number, in any market.

I'm going to go with oreo's knowledge of the Atlanta real estate market at this time. I have no idea if a kitchen remodel in that neighborhood will enhance the sale of the home or not. How could I? I'm not a realtor there.

Notice I said "enhance the sale." We all know that the cost of kitchen remodel is not totally recouped but I think we all (most all) agree it can speed up the sale, all things considered. I read somewhere that the majority of home buyers looked at properties online first (and most especially now) before actually visiting a house. Meaning people who say oh ugh when seeing a photo of a really bad kitchen without physically seeing the overall look and feel of the home, just click on and away. It doesn't matter to most if the listing says "fixer upper with great potential!!"

I live in the metro DC area. Housing contracts are down 40% from this time a year ago but prices certainly aren't. The main reason is covid, of course, but another reason is Amazon's HQ2 location coming soon; an amazing amount of owners pulled their houses off the market when that was announced, planning to hold on a year or so (now longer than that) to get much higher prices when those thousands of high paying jobs arrived. Sales might be down but prices never go down here, which is another reason blanket statements can't be made. Every area is different.

The owner sounds like someone who watches HGTV and sees those $8,200 numbers for a kitchen gut job that are flashed on the screen. Oreo, the only thing I can advise is let him get quotes and/or put it on the market without the update and see what happens. You said the owner wants to do the kitchen; what do you advise him to do?

I forsee misunderstandings will continue in this relationship. If you are offering good advice and sharing your knowledge of the market and your client argues with many of your statements, then actually shepherding a sale won't be fun. Be cautious dealing with this client as he likely won't appreciate your efforts on his behalf.

Expectations go up with the listing price. I don't know where that price fits in the local market, but I doubt it is a starter house. Cheap remodels fit in cheap houses but midrange and above houses need to have remodels of an extent and style with suitable workmanship to fit in with the rest of the house and the neighborhood.

There are many examples of low price, high quality kitchen remodels all with one common feature. The person handling the details and making the decisions has a personal involvement in the project. Professional advice and supervision is expensive and any project where the homeowners hire out that aspect will not be a low cost remodel.

If the seller that OP is describing doesn't want to get quotes to re-do the kitchen, or spend the full price for re-do, what's an alternative way to approach this?

Clean clean clean; replace broken/super outdated appliances (as in not vintage cool); paint. Freshen the house without major remodeling.

Buyers exist who want the nice neighborhood but can't necessarily afford the hiked up price of newly remodeled... and who is to say buyers would want a trendy remodel that isn't necessarily in keeping with the rest of the house? Maybe they can afford the hiked up price IF the remodel was exactly their taste... but chance of that is very small.

We passed on many higher-priced homes with shiny new kitchens but old everything else. Bought the house with a newer (17 years old in 54 yo house) kitchen that is not an appealing style -- and isn't in keeping with the rest of the house -- but its in good shape and functional; the house, for it's size/# bedrooms, was $50-75k less than other homes.

Encourage your seller to make things clean and liveable, and price the house accordingly. See what happens. Maybe when it doesn't get the desired/expected interest they will come around.

melle_sacto above nailed it.

Without appliances or flooring, our cabinets, tops, hardware, fixtures - installed, costs between $20,000 to $50,000 (low to high). Our average installed job probably runs about $35k. If he thinks kitchens are expensive....bathrooms are more $ per square foot. My clients get sticker shocked over bathrooms way more than kitchens.

Oh yes, those bathroom gut jobs. Who knew 5' x 8' could cost so much, lol?

We are here (houzz) because we're interested in remodeling, decorating, fixing up, building, etc. I will say that in my experience most people do not want to immediately rip out a kitchen. Houses in my small golf community sell for $500k+ in a very short time. One down the street from us lingered for months because for some reason the owners had replaced the worn out hardwood with really dated white tile. Even though the owners offered money to change the flooring, it took a realtor (hah!) who didn't mind having a "project" to buy it. Plus she got a really good deal, lol.

My husband and I have always been able to see the possibilities in a house; there are so many people who really, truly can't. We had a house on the market for months and the main complaint was the carpet (it was wall to wall blue - oh the horrors - but hey, it was a long time ago). We offered a flooring allowance. No go. Finally, I replaced all of the first floor carpeting with the cheapest neutral beige I could find which seriously clashed with the ice white wall paint. We then got 3 offers in a week.

But now, at our (advanced) ages, we don't want to do that anymore. We have gutted or redone things in almost every room in this house, as we have done in others so many times, but probably not again. The next one needs to be as close to turnkey as possible.

Hopefully, your prospective seller can be convinced to go one way or the other, whichever makes the most sense for selling the home. Unless he's your crotchety rich old uncle and you have to be nice to him, you have to ask yourself if the listing is going to end up like The Machine, sucking years from your life (Princess Bride reference) and if it's worth it.

People seem to think...bathrooms....but they're so SMALL!!! I just quoted a bathroom gut job that was $24k with a custom tiled shower 50x40, new frameless two sided shower glass enclosure, new flooring, raised ceiling (ceiling was 84" or so) reworked closets, 60" vanity and quartz tops...., all new LED can lighting thoughout, new closet and entry doors, all new electrical, new bath light fan and ventilation and plumbing...all installed. Homeowner expected $6k.....$8k max.

Does anyone think $24k is too much $? Is the homeowner out of touch? Am I too expensive in the bathroom arena (I normally do mostly kitchens)? I'm sure she can get it done cheaper if she were to sub out all of the contractors on her own. But I've acquired a top notch team and we run a tight ship. To some people, that is worth the extra expense to have me involved....and to some, it's not. From now on, I need to really question my clients and make sure our budget thoughts are inline.

Too much HGTV syndrome. And zero ability to frame search terms when researching. But they don’t bother to research. They just accept entertainment is reality. 🙄

Melle_Sacto said “Encourage your seller to make things clean and liveable, and price the house accordingly.”

I said this very early in this thread and the OP hated me for it. I am glad someone has repeated it.

Shannon -- unfortunately this could be just a bad client/agent fit. Why bring the issue to the forum?

The parties need their own location-specific estimates for what a remodel would cost, and it will depend on what materials are chosen. Maybe seller is fine to lose a few K if it means not remodeling, or lesser remodeling... who knows where they are coming from. Get real estimates from the area that agent is an expert on in order to settle the issue.

Also -- and maybe this is just ignorance on my part -- how could clients afford to pay the higher price of house with remodeled kitchen -- but not afford a lower priced house and then pay for their own remodel? Is this due to mortgage structure or?

@melle_sacto, I see it in the first time home buyer market where many, not all, of the buyers have stretched to get their home and don't have the resources to put in new kitchens and/or baths. And yes, it generally has to do with the financing in my area. However, in my market $650k is not typically a first time homebuyer.

Once you get to the move up buyer - they have the experience and knowledge to choose a home that needs work to get it where they want it to be. They may not have the time to do it. But it is far better for the seller in my area to not put in a new kitchen or baths to sell the house as they won't see the HGTV returns of 100%+ at all.

DIY clients with little to no experience get marginal results for whatever they spend. To do it right as a DIY'er, the tools will cost them about as much as having a pro do it. I'm an architect. I build models. I have an Exacto blade kit. Just because I have a tool, does not qualify me to be your surgeon. Hire an licensed architect and/or interior designer to get a phenomenally better result than you'll ever get from Joe BigBox. Want marginal results? Why do the project at all?

I was busy when I first saw this thread, but since it popped back up...

It is important to keep in mind that comparing an average kitchen cost to a kitchen whose only purpose is to increase sales value is flawed. Sure, most kitchens don't return their cost in value, but most kitchens are also not designed solely to increase home value.

Yes, it can be done and it can be done for under $20k. In fact, it really isn't even hard to do an average size kitchen under $20k and also get a positive return on it. I regularly sale investment properties, I redo the kitchen every time and it is always profitable. Flippers will always remodel a kitchen, while they have a competitive cost advantage, they also have offsetting tax disadvantages.

The real question is whether or not any particular person can do it. That I can't say. People do have a tendency to get invested in a home project, which would be bad. The biggest thing to watch out for is time. Even inexpensive remodels can take a lot of time.

I have posted this before but we spent around 30k on a kitchen remodel reusing appliances in a low col area. We have custom cabinets from a local company and I waited until I found people/companies that were reasonable. That research took awhile. Everything stayed in the same place since we have a basic L layout. I love our kitchen. So much needed to be done in our house and I am so glad the previous owner did not update. When we were looking there were so many brand new kitchens that we didn’t care for. We also spent 30k on the master bath. Ouch. As far as getting money back for renovations, we are about 60k ahead with what we have put in.

Thank you for all your comments. We are set now on a budget that’s appropriate. He thought 20k for a 650 house was going to work. No I do not think so. Stay sage and have a great day.

I was about to chime in with the range that was "the average USA upgrade" for kitchens and baths:

Kitchen Renovation = $50K average (that includes the $16K repaint + new counters as well as the $250K designer kitchen in B. Hills in a 20,000sf mansion).

Bathroom Renovation = $30K average (includes the $1,600 refresh right up to the $100K Grand Salon spa bathroom)

COVID-19 has kicked the living daylights out of the economy (????US projected to hit 25% unemployment by end of summer????) and therefore the housing market.

If your client is set at $20K then I would SERIOUSLY look at Ikea. You get a TREMENDOUS bang for your buck. I've seen Rock-Star kitchens from Ikea for $150/sf. If the kitchen is 100sf, then this is TOTALLY doable....so long as you work with Ikea.

I love Ikea kitchens so I always suggest them...but it is up to the homeowner to look at that as a possible solution.

And yes, to the Houzzer that mentioned that people watch the HGTV shows and get unrealistic ideas about what things cost.

Are the dollar amounts quoted on those shows based on wholesale costs of materials and to the trade costs of labor?

And I do confess, I watch some of those shows, too.

I get some ideas and reminders of what I like and don't like, and reminders of my youth.

And why has no one ever given Laurel Bern a TV show? Or Fred Gonsonowski? Or Mark Sikes?

And what ever happened to Kitty Carlisle?

Maybe they just don't need one.

Okay, I am officially outed as an old fuddy-dud.

Thank you loobab. They are a close friend of my deceased mom. So it is personal. I love laurel bern as well lol. I think she did have a show but I am not sure it was picked up. And I am probably a fussy duddy as well😀

Oh, family friends and relatives can be indeed problematic.

And they usually want a discount, too!

Funny you say that I am only covering cost of my agency. It’s what my mom would have wanted. We will get kitchen done and it will sell and the. He can start new life I. Something smaller more age appropriate. Although I did get a laugh out of him when he said “some of these people are not nice” lol

The COVID19 crisis has just wiped out so many.

They say this is worse than the depression.

Shannon. I don‘t hate anyone. I just did not agree.

oreolucca1 not a pro -- but a strong opinion I have about updating before selling: only do what really needs to be done, and invest in having it really well staged instead. fix broken stuff. maybe address a few of the glaringly obvious cosmetic flaws like popcorn ceilings, murder stains on the carpet, etc. what people prefer for finishes are SO subjective. it kills me thinking about the massive waste of new things being constantly ripped out because it wasn't the homeowner's taste. price accordingly, and let the new homeowner choose their own stuff.

plus I find it so personally exhausting to manage even small renos. I'd rather go through that stress for my own home, not for one I'm about to sell.