Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons that HVAC gets a bad name, The compressor is covered by the 10 yr AS warranty assuming the proper registration was completed. The labor and refrigerant replacement is not covered unless you had an ext warranty. Are you using the same company that installed the system? Have you considered getting a second opinion. If it truly is a failed compressor, it is recommended that the refrigerant be replaced.. pricing outrageous but typical.. sorry for your trouble.

TD

Refrigerant circuit health is important. By replacing with virgin refrigerant you are putting in a new compressor in a known clean environment.

If this is not done another compressor failure could occur again shortly.

Air Conditioning brands that claim to be the best:

This is a major reason that HVAC gets a bad name. Equipment brands described as being better, that fail just as much or more than anything else.

(Let's not talk about how big a rip off the brand is) --- How convenient.

TRANE and AmStd did a good marketing job with their Compressors. Not sure the data supported their claims. It use to be when there was a compressor failure, it would be returned back to the factory to Investigate the reason for the failure. Not sure if this practice is still active.

TD

The climatuff compressor and spiny fin coil was developed by GE. Trane bought out GE in the early 80's like 82 or so. A few years after that Am. Stnd bought out Trane.

Sometime in 2007, is when everything began to unwind for this brand. Layoffs / moving manufacturing facilities etc. Then some time around 2008 or so Ingersol Rand bought the HVAC side of American Stnd. Which by that time had sold off the plumbing stuff and renamed themselves Trane.

Trane the road to ruins...

Not going to participate in TRANE bashing...I do believe there are quality/feature differences in condensers, less about furnaces...

TD

Can someone explain why the refrigerant needs to be replaced? Is it because the compressor failure contaminates the refrigerant, or is it because the refrigerant becomes contaminated by the tech when he saves it and restores it from the tank that he uses for all his other jobs?

Could be both...I think it is a good safety/insurance practice to watch the tech open up a container of fresh refrigerant...

TD

You have to pull refrigerant out to replace the compressor. So if you've done other jobs you can cross contaminate the refrigerant that way. (Texas licensing bars contractors from reusing used refrigerant. I'm sure other areas may have similar rules.)

Contaminated = acids, moisture, air, mixing of refrigerants, etc.

If the compressor failed due to electrical failure, the refrigerant contains acids from that. Once you have acids in refrigerant it will begin to eat the new compressor.

Not going to bash Trane? yeah but you're plenty content with bashing Magic Chef, Goodman and other brands huh?

In my opinion I'm not really bashing Trane, just stating facts. Look at the thread we're in. Let's put Trane on a pedestal days are long over. (It's nothing special).

Absolutely right, Austin...

Ray,

When you see a compressor fail within 5 years on new equipment, what percentage would you attribute to poor compressor design versus a poor installation?

not Ray but sometimes there is evidence left behind to indicate cause or a known electrical storm passes through...what do you mean by poor compressor design...don’t most brands use Copeland scrolls, I suppose not many use a recip any longer...

TD

Well, it's a 4 year old system so it should be R410a. If that's the case, then the refrigerant should be well under $100 for a 2 ton system. If it's R22 then $600 may be typical.

It could be one of a dozen things. However, more and more parts, pieces and such are being made else where. Things are merely 'assembled' here at best.

It could be poor system design, maybe the heat load calc was done too well, or not at all.

If we think the price is too high we go the better professional that knows so much they charge cheaper prices for their work. Then we sit and complain when we can't find any professionals. Or the ones that are left we call them out and want them to teach or tell us what is wrong with our systems so we can then hire a cheaper person to fix it.

What a true pro posts here is irrelevant. Someone that works on these systems that posts in a forum board he's just another scam artist looking to rip someone off. It has nothing to do with 'time'. We want you come for free. Your drive time to and back plus the time you spend here... you shouldn't be compensated for that.

We'll call the tech that gets sent here for free. The free estimate, they call it. Then you get half a dozen quotes to choose from. Because we know that a true pro will come to our house for free. (True pro definition is defined as someone who can fix it when it breaks. It will break, they all do --even the Tranes.

These kinds of things are tossed around here on this board like confetti at a party. Then when things happen as I so often talk about it comes as such a big surprise?

You and many like you won't like the words I've posted here. The truth often does that. It's probably too late, you've already chosen your fate by the majority of actions you've chosen to run your household by. The manufacturer knows they can sell more albeit at a slight cheaper price, the equipment breaks more frequently due to inferior parts and or cheaper skilled personnel.

Don't need any real skill because the equipment will spit out a code giving you clues as to what might be wrong with it. Yeah when you start search for facts, things get truly ugly. It's the same thing for the mall, you speak with your wallet. Mr. Bezos is trying to do the same thing to air conditioning. The skill part will not change however. Because a true pro repairman will not bow to the likes of Mr. Bezos.

You will always need an air conditioning repair man... especially in a hot climate where I live. You can argue nine ways to Sunday about price.... I've got nickels and dimes in the way of getting you cool.

You choose. Someday soon your choices may be limited even further. (The cost of cheaper is better).

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Do you ever do a root cause analysis of why the compressor failed?

Here's an older video I made for my youtube channel about compressor failure.

In this video I take a failed compressor apart and identify the difficulties in trying to do this.

I currently do not have *any* regular customers with problems of losing compressors on a regular basis. On occasion I get a new customer with a unit that the compressor has failed... most of the time this is *in my opinion* due to a lack of experience of those who have worked on the system.

If you hire a pro for anything? It's experience. (This video was made over 6 years ago...)

The above comment is also outside the realm of an foreign made compressor. These compressor are often times not built for the abuse of an American consumer. (lack of maintenance and / or proper maintenance -- experience of those working on it.)

Trane has used Chinese compressors in some models. Other manufacturer's have been doing this as well as of late. The picture I posted a few clicks up of the Korean compressor was a Lennox unit.

Ray....an interesting video...some questions...would you say there are more failed compressors due to electrical rather than mechanical issues?...based on your experience, what % of compressors that are replaced actually never needed replacing because of improper diagnosis?....and finally can you point to any real improvements in compressor design over say the last 10 yrs to make compressors more reliable and long lasting?...you mentioned how fragile the lacquer is on the windings...On a routine PM on an AC condenser, what is the #1 procedure that a tech can take to check the function of a compressor to improve the life?....

TD

More failed due to electrical rather than mechanical?

It varies. Most of the time the compressor doesn't fail, replaced due to freon type R22 (leaks of that).

I would say it's probably 50/50 when it is a bad compressor that it's a mechanical reason as opposed to electrical. (the Trane condenser was seized up, the rheem / ruud one that I took apart was electrical) .

Compressors are pretty reliable. In terms of improve life, cleanliness of the unit, no freon leaks, properly charged, proper air filtration, clean tight electrical points, adequate starting components, adequate voltage.

If I had to put a number on it compressor failure may be around 30% of the reason for failure. The other is mostly due to refrigerant leaks, age of the equipment as refrigerant leaks are often costly to repair it often makes more sense to replace the unit in these types of scenarios rather than repair it. (Not only age but also climate can be big factors.)

If the unit is R410a unit with leaks it mostly comes down to the overall condition of the unit, it's service history. Sometimes it's a borderline decision in my climate. (10 months of cooling most years).

Misdiagnoses: yeah it does happen.

In your Video, you indicated the compressor was very dirty with metal shavings which is never a good sign.

however, you did not mention any specific improvement in compressor design over the past 10 yrs.

on equipment selection, how important is it that the consumer know the manufacturing country of the compressor, ie stay away from Chinese?

TD

Well the metal shavings were from me cutting it open. An electrical failure the inside is always 'dirty' due to burn out reasons.

Compressors don't fail that often, I'd say maybe 30% of the time failure is due to compressor related problems.

Specific improvement: scroll compressors are the better compressor in my opinion. They are very reliable, problems are far and few between if you're only using *skilled* people to do the work.

There are so many choices in equipment selection people often faced with this decision spur of the moment unexpected break down in the heat of the summer. So I doubt people are going to fret over every mundane part in the HVAC unit.

Just use a pro like me: easy as pie.

Why else would you use a pro?

We don't like the pro price, must keep searching for cheaper price. That being said there are those running around like pros, but are anything but. (look at some of the recent threads for clues)

Definition of a true pro: someone who can fix the machine you have right now. (in some cases this may mean replacing part of it.)

Anyone can fix a unit by replacing the whole HVAC system. However, in some situations an entire HVAC system may be the better choice. (no two homes are exactly alike, no two comfort goals are exactly alike)

Foreign made compressors: it's a cost cutting move. I doubt this will change any going forward. The low price is never low enough, so this mentality just feeds upon itself.

I sell Bosch *Inverter* equipment, that is German engineered and made in China as an example --this is premium equipment . (it's not going away -- the phone in your pocket was made there, plus a slew of other things we buy with out much thought about it.)

In prior posts you criticized Trane and Lennox for using compressors made in China and Korea. But the Bosch equipment made in China is a good quality. Are you saying it doesn't matter where equipment is made as long as they are built to meet the demands of the American consumer?

No Mike that's not what I am saying.

You have to put things into context. When you have an entry level machine with a foreign made compressor, that choice is made purely as a cost cutting strategy. Why else do it?

There are risks in choosing Bosch versus anything else... just as much as choosing a proprietary type machine of the Major US manufacturers.

Is Trane/American Standard now using compressors made in China for all their residential equipment?

Mike all I know is that Climatuff compressor is now a trade marked name. The compressor facility was transferred to Monterey, Mexico. Trane and Copeland had an Alliance of sorts with their compressor deal, but you don't find any information about these kinds of back door deals. I think this was another trade marked name compressor called Duration, what I find now is that this appears to be a discontinued unit.

So who really knows... Trane is a brand more about hype, advertising gimmicks and things of this nature. American Standard is the little brother to all that... very little difference / part prices are still high as an example.

Maybe IR moved the compressor factory? They are tight lipped for good reason. I assume, they have to be as to how they sell the machine charge higher prices for parts. It's a well lubed machine... because it has to be.

I don't sell Trane / American Standard --- I fix these brands / I fix all brands... so this part of the equation doesn't matter to me.

The reason I don't sell Trane is mostly around the argument: It's the best equipment you can buy. --- When it breaks within a few years of buying it --- customers complain. What do you mean it's broken --- it's only a few years old, you said it was the best? See gimmick definition for eye opening transition.

I can get other brands to work with one another --- for the most part this depends on whether proprietary controls are required or not to drive it... so there are limitations in that regard.

My mentality is --- you never stop the knowledgeable repair man.

When you can fix it by not replacing everything again... anyone can do that.

Trane is one of the few brands that still manufactures its own compressor, the Climatuff.May 14, 2018. Trane's scroll compressors will now be produced at the company's plant in Monterrey, Mexico.

Tiger you say that like it's a good thing?

The units are assembled in Tyler, Texas (note it doesn't say made in)

You can argue what ever which way you want, but these compressors still fail.

How many in Mexico could afford one?

The whole move is profit driven, that doesn't spell anything good. A gimmick is a gimmick. Nothing new here.

Austin, It‘s not a good thing. But I suspect they can control quality and that operation better in Mexico than far away China... again though a question about improvements and reliability of compressors over last 10 yrs or is it the same old from Copeland as well...

TD

But I suspect they can control quality and that operation better in Mexico than far away China...

This comment shows how little you know about Ingersoll Rand (IR) the current owner of Trane / American Standard HVAC products.

IR is a global entity that spans the globe. It is an Irish company headquartered in Dublin, Ireland. Trane Technologies is head quartered in Sword, Ireland (obviously this was added after IR bought Trane in 2008.)

IR also has a European HQ in Belgium as well as Asia HQ in none other than Shanghai, People's Republic of China.

No where is Mexico mentioned.... so we simply can only guess if the Mexico facility is even operational at this point. Because IR has no HQ in Mexico the argument you just made doesn't make any sense.

The Mexico compressor plant was set up by American Standard *before* they sold to IR. If I had to guess this was to dissolve higher cost employees, maybe pensions and other costs to garner a higher price for the sale. Just a guess, from a business sale perspective.

You can brush up on some facts here: IR link to Trane Technologies