Model numbers on AC and furnaces with coils would be helpful along with details and scope of work..you are getting too many quotes...

TD

TD, I have updated the post.

In terms of one brand or another... if these systems are all entry level systems (14 SEER in the south, 13 SEER or 14 SEER in the north) brand name means very little in this realm. ( they all break)

Installation & design really have the most impact. Every manufacturer has it's flaws. The major players parts (once the warranty expires) are expensive. Nearly all of them play this replacement part pricing hijack to one degree or another.

If you are choosing a high end system you will be forced to use a major manufacturer brand. Because often times the lesser brands don't make anything greater than entry level equipment.

The warranty (can be) dismissed if you don't properly maintain the equipment. So there is added cost to do this.

You're better off to look at features you want, hire a well known respected HVAC company in your area to not only install the equipment, but also service it. This is a service business no matter how you slice it. The new system will need service, depending on climate conditions where you live -- how many hours a year you run it can have a large impact how long it may last, in addition to the installation / design of the system.

Chasing after gimmicks like 0% financing for 5 yrs. OR buying an AC to get a furnace for free?

They're all gimmicks designed to get you to open your door and let a 'salesman' in your door.

They're 'selling you'... come on man.

Thank you Austin! Yes I have a very good Hvac tech, the one offering the 0% is not my tech. The reviews were scary and yes aware that installation is key no matter who I go with. Regardless doesn't 12k seem too high for a 2 and 2.5 ton unit with furnace?

It's a little steep for builder grade products, but pricing is very regional. Don't let them install an aftermarket coil (ADP) it's unlikely to have an ARHI match and may create headaches with your warranty. Ruud and Rheem are the same.

Thank you sktn, so which ADP is recommended? I would imagine this is from RUUD right?

Got a quote from another

Company C - GoodMan - $15558 (includes the free furnace lol!!!) and this was the company which touted about free furnace with AC. Austin Air - you were right lol.

I didn't get a good vibe about these guys and waiting on 2 more quotes.

"brand name means very little in this realm. ( they all break) "

My AC tech would do a Goodman as well, so does this mean I can go with the Goodman as it will turn out to be cheaper than the Ruud? Only downside Goodman's warranty is not as gr8 as Ruud.

If you base your decision completely on money... it's a fool's game. It really depends on what is included in the job. Who is installing the equipment, how much experience do they have. Just because they have a uniform on, means extremely little.

If they show up in shorts & flip flops, that doesn't spell success to me either.

If it's just equipment only, you can save some money... but the design of the system more or less stays the same which can lead to trouble OR have some issues to live with during really hot or really cold weather.

You *should* buy the equipment for what it does for you, rather than the name on the side of the box. If your goal is simply to get the cheapest price possible?

Well that doesn't end well 9 times out of 10.

Goodman has some industry leading warranties but you have to go the higher tier equipment to get them. Once you hit 16 SEER the warranty is a 10 year part, lifetime heat exchanger, lifetime compressor warranty. The Ruud is probably 10 year parts, unless they added an extended warranty. But extended warranties don't always hold water. There's hoops you have to jump thru to keep those valid.

The freebie furnace company *could* be the better one. They have to advertise that way to get the phone to ring... it's a high pressure sales call. But depending on what the job entails that quote *may be* the better option. It could be the worst too. HVAC is so much fun when talking about money.

That said there is no perfect brand. Choose what you want based on what it will do for you. What are the features of the equipment. The more features the more it will cost. Proper design, the more it will cost.

If your goal is to get the cheapest price then comfort isn't that important to you. Maybe it works out going that way... But I doubt it.

The cheapest price is often conflated with: "The only reason these guys are in business is because they are cheap." <<< That doesn't spell skill, certainly not service, most likely not longevity.

Regardless doesn't 12k seem too high for a 2 and 2.5 ton unit with furnace? I'm not there, have not viewed the jobsite, do not know the challenges of the job *exactly*, do not know if design problems exist, do not fully know *what your goals are*. If it's just about cost, you wouldn't choose me either.

I'm in this business to do it right, that costs money. There are ways to save money, but those kinds of conversations aren't done on a forum board, because often times they are misconstrued by people who don't actually do what I do for a living. *Professionally*

Remember if I do the work, I am doing it with the goal of *staying* the primary service provider. I am not in this business to quote prices, install equipment and then tell you good luck..... It's a service business, no matter who you choose -- that equipment will need servicing.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Thanks for the detailed response Austin. Definitely I am looking for a good install but at the same time good equipment. The problem I am facing at this point is friends who have had their systems replaced are saying 12k is on the high side but on the flip side they have had Goodman and Comfortmaker ( no idea a brand existed like this..sounds like a mattress).

I am leaning towards Ruud as it sounds like a reliable system and my tech can do this. Yesterday the company (Free furnace one)which came over was so bothered about who I am servicing my HVAC with and kept asking like twice. To me personally that is unprofessional and totally irrelevant as I am here to get quotes and no other installer has asked this either. Anyway I am waiting on 2 other quotes and then will decide by next week.

You haven't posted the model numbers of all the equipment so it is difficult to judge whether the quotes you have received are reasonable or not. Prices also vary greatly based on location. About half the installed price is typically the labor component, and not every contractor pays the same price for equipment.

I think $12K for two systems with furnaces installed in an attic is a good price even for low end equipment. It seems your highest priority is getting the lowest cost. Just be aware you get what you pay for in equipment and installation when it comes to HVAC.

You should be asking what thermostats are you getting, will the line sets be replaced, and what are the parts and labor warranties.

ADP coils have had a bad reputation in the past. I don't know if this is still the case. Contractors like to use them because they are cheaper. I would want the manufacturer's coil and the associated warranty. Gimmicks like free furnaces would be a red flag for me. Interest rates are low but the finance charge for an unsecured loan is still going to be built into the price.

"Thank you sktn, so which ADP is recommended?"

I recommend a coil manufactured by the make of your condenser - Trane for Trane, Carrier for Carrier, Rheem for Rheem (Ruud), Goodman for Goodman.

There's probably nothing wrong with an ADP coil................. until something goes wrong with the system, then the manufacturer will blame the aftermarket coil installed instead of their's!

In terms of Evaporator coils in the 2020 era:

The brand doesn't matter as much as you think it does. The evaporator coils today: 99.9% are made of aluminum. (ADP is likely all aluminum now as well)

So the threat of formicary corrosion that has plagued copper coils (freon leaks) is no longer a threat. This formicary corrosion does not effect aluminum.

However, this does not mean that aluminum is somehow exempt from failure. Every single brand deals with Evaporator coil failures. This is why I told you above that you will rely on some one for service. (They all break-- including major manufacturer's. Look what I do for a living --- come on man.)

There are many different types of corrosion that effects coils in various different ways. There is no escaping failure... why do I say service is one major factor in you decision? Because you will need it.

I replace a Lennox coil earlier this year that was a shade over 3 years old. It was replaced with the same exact Lennox coil.

I've seen new coils fail in just over a year, many different brands... Your HVAC system is a mechanical system it will break.

Many people don't like what I say... because they want the best more often than not. Maybe it works for you... I do have customers that have systems for many, many years with nary a problem anywhere... but these are a rarity. The effect on ANY coil, is ultimately determined by what you use in your home. VOC's, chemicals of cleaners, perfumes, furnishings in the home, etc. leech these VOC's into the air, that air goes into the return of the HVAC system. Finds it's way to the coil where air is condensing into condensate waste water. That water is comprised of chemical compounds from your home's air supply... VOC's -- those VOC's once in condensate waste water can affect the evaporator coil in many different ways. Most of the time it results in microscopic holes in the evaporator coil that leak freon.

The freon we use today is of a pressure that is double that of R22 the older freon that is phased out now.

So sorry a specific brand name does not cure this problem. Never has, never will.

I repair HVAC systems for a living. Great service --- no gimmics.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Both Mike and SKTN are correct in their advice...It‘s important to see the AHRI matching number for new systems. Request it in writing...

TD

Good points Austin, thank you for the input on the coils.

Company A gave me these serial# - $11k

the 2.5 ton I don't have that serial# at the moment.

RA1424AJ1NA Ruud Air Conditioner( 2 ton)

RCF3617STAMCA Ruud Evaporator Coil (2)

R801CA075417 Ruud 80% Furnace (2)

H6 Honeywell Thermostat (2)

Labor Warranty:1 year

Company B - $12k

The AC unit is RA14 SERIES

The coil is not RUUD but comes with a 10 year warranty.

Homewell Thermostat T6

Labor Warranty : 2 year

I am by no means discrediting what my HVAC tech is saying. Just a helpless first-time home-owner here who has been fooled by 2 hvac techs in the past and no I didn't see the "cheapest" service to save $$. I finally found a good HVAC tech but I need to do my due-diligence before spending $1000s. So please don't take offense at my questions.

Yeah I know this all to well. The HVAC techs are by and large commission paid. They may have a base salary which doesn't amount to much, so the only way they make any money (livelihood) is to recommend this or that to get a lucrative commission check.

The other is the company is looking for a performer. What does that mean? A seller. A mover of product. If products aren't sold, the company will cease to exist. People often get this rosy view of how we / techs / installers / etc are paid. The top earners are commission paid by a percentage of what they sell. Salesman, they're selling you man -- come on.

So spending thousands, you can see why an HVAC tech is recommending this or that. The tech is only getting a small percentage of the overall number. Because the company is often times putting them up to what they are spewing. If the words coming from their mouth are sweeter than honey... well take it as an indication to run.

You have to choose someone... your natural instinct is to choose something in which it's painted as a no flaw item. Everything that is sold is marketed in this way. Call it hype, BS, whatever you want... but it's not sold based on truth. Keep that in mind.

Yet the homeowners of this board are spewing out things like getting an AHRI number? The AHRI number comes from a test in a lab performed by top skilled HVAC people. Yet you are probably getting this number from a guy who is 20 or 30 years old. Maybe has 3 to 5 years experience if you're lucky.

AHRI number only tells a small part of the story (it's listed on a piece of paper -- how far is that piece of paper going to go to help you?). The manufacturers don't want me saying this nor all the guys in white coats running around... but if the equipment isn't installed properly --- an AHRI number can be used as a poster hung on the wall. It's virtually worthless in *Today's World*

Experience is boiled down as: knowing what to do as well as knowing what not to do. That is essentially how I make my living. I don't know if you can find someone like me. I know there are others out there like me... but we are few and far between.

I've been doing this for 26 years. It's not the same cup of tea from when I first started, I can tell you that much.

At the end of the day... follow your gut. Base the decision around what the equipment does for you and service of the equipment. It will need service and inviting a new company in to do that... well reread the commission dilemma above if you think that is going to put you in a better position by switching companies mid-stream.

Austin is off base on the AHRI matching number. Yes it comes from a lab but it is a guide on efficiency/performance numbers and will tell you that the system quoted has matching components...

TD

At the end of the day... follow your gut. Base the decision around what the equipment does for you and service of the equipment. It will need service and inviting a new company in to do that... well reread the commission dilemma above if you think that is going to put you in a better position by switching companies mid-stream. --5 stars to this :). Yes I don't want to change to a new company to service my new unit.

Here is the scenario -

I have 2 Lennox units - 2 and 2.5 ton. With 2 furnaces (80%)

The 2.5 ton definitely needs to go as we have had freon leaks now for 2 -3years. Today another company tells me to not replace the 2 ton unit. So is it ok to be proactive and replace both or replace just the bad one? Has anyone seen a Lennox last long?

It is a hard question to answer. How old is the equipment and how long do you plan to live in this house? The nice thing about having two systems is if one completely fails, the other can provide some heating or cooling to get by while you replace the other.

You should be able to negotiate a price break on the second system when both are done at the same time.

Mike, we plan to be here atleast 10 years.Equipment is 12 years old.

If I install both systems together I get a $500 discount and permit is pulled only once ($300). I just dont trust this Lennox which is running lol..my worry is if it fails in the middle of Feb next yr and then for some reason Trane or Ruud are out of stock or there is a waiting period, I dont want to end up with a lower grade unit which is available at that time.

• Has anyone seen a Lennox last long? mike_home It is a hard question to answer.

It's a hard question for a home owner I suppose. I had a Lennox that I replaced a few years ago for a customer that was made in 1992. Of course what has happened over the last 10 or so years in terms of equipment manufacturing, not to mention skill of those chums that work on equipment. It's all a slippery slope now.

I have video of that Lennox on my youtube channel: This link will start the video precisely where the Lennox is within the video.

An AHRI number only gives you equipment that was tested together / then give you a rating number of that match. It doesn't NOT determine that when you match that equipment together what your actual rating will actually be. Look at this forum board how many people come here and complain about performance related things?

Every manufacturer has limitations in regards to performance in which they (the manufacturers are not to be held accountable)

So again what do you think an AHRI number is really going to mean? A matched system?

If you're buying a complete system furnace, coil, condenser but reusing ducts?

If you're buying a complete system furnace, coil, condenser but reusing line set?

If you're buying a complete system furnace, coil, condenser but the system is not properly charged?

If you're buying a complete system furnace, coil, condenser but the duct design / return system is flawed?

If you're buying a complete system furnace, coil, condenser but the home's insulation is not adequate?

If you're buying a complete system furnace, coil, condenser but the system is not sized properly for the structure?

Take that AHRI number, hang it on a wall in your house. Come on, man.

Now mix in areas like where I live in which AC's typically last anywhere from 10-15 years. Furnaces can easily last 30 years here most of the time. You gonna replace a furnace here in my climate every time you need a new AC just so you get an ARHI match? C'mon man.

Somebody is selling you man.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Don‘t kid yourself...AHRI matching number serves a purpose...despite what Katy says...

TD

AHRI number tells you that you have a match system combo that has been tested in a lab installed by highly skilled people. Those people aren't coming to your home to install your new system.

From there the equipment is rated in terms of efficiency it will achieve (best case scenario, rated at specific OAT temps, indoor wet bulb, indoor dry bulb etc.

But here's the gotchya... the manufacturer's have small little fine print that they are not held responsible for equipment utility bills and such. Pull out any manufacturer warranty fine print... every manufacturer it's there in black text.

The main purpose an AHRI tested combo of equipment serves is matching for higher than entry level SEER ratings. As your goal in that situation is to cut utility bills... the only way you seriously do that is to properly match equipment, AND address duct system, AND address refrigerant piping design, AND address air return(s) design, AND address sizing requirements... AND any other design problem there may be. (each house is different, no two are exactly alike.)

Every AND you address above costs more $$$. So you see the big picture here... you can fix any problem by opening your wallet at the cost of being sold.

An AHRI matched system doesn't do anything on it's own. SCIENCE... all day, everyday.

Stay awake.... come on man.

Above know it all poster is intolerant of any opinion that disagrees with him....be careful about what advice you take from him....AHRI matching numbers are important for any homeowner purchasing conventional HVAC systems....in some cases they are used to qualify systems for factory or utility rebates especially for furnaces and outside condensers.

TD

I highly doubt you will find an AHRI number for a system where all components don't come from the same manufacturer. Of course, it isn't the primary factor when purchasing a system but if the installer can't provide it, then that's a red flag. The system either doesn't have one or the installer is too lazy to find it (either way, you have a problem). If the system doesn't have one then there could be a gross mismatch between components that may cost you dearly (in operating costs); if the installer is too lazy to find it, then do you really want him installing your system?

It's like the EPA gas mileage figures - it doesn't tell the whole story but it does tell some of it.

Thank you all for the wealth of info. Did some reading and Need some HVAC-101 here. The outside unit houses the condenser AC unit and it works with the Evaporator coil which is usually situated inside the house right? In my house, the attic has the evaporator coil and furnace. So when we buy a AC Unit, we need to match the outside unit with the evaporator coil and all my quotes had this. The furnace is separate by itself correct?

Took some photos, my AC tech did show me the inside of the Evaporator coils for the upstairs and it was corroded and crumbly.

Having said that, it looks like my furnace may have not been the problem at all and I automatically assumed it was bad. Regardless the recommendation was to replace the whole AC and Furnace as the Furnace was $1700 something where as If I replaced it at separate times , it would cost higher. This is what I was told.

Anyway can you guys please take a look at these pictures and tell me if the furnaces look real bad? I was thinking of the following options -

1. Replace just outside AC units with the corresponding evaporator coils.

2. Replace my bad 2.5 ton AC unit and the furnace. Sounds like it would be a bad idea to use a

new 14 seer RUUD AC unit with new evap coil and still keep this old Lennox Furnace?

3. Leave the furnaces alone and just replace the 2.5 ton AC unit with new evap coil. Then replace the 2 ton ac unit when it starts giving trouble and still keep the other furnace until it starts giving trouble.

The cost of the furnace appears to be cheaper when replacing it with the AC unit verses replacing furnaces separately

4. Any harm installing a new AC unit and use the existing Furnace?

Downstairs Furnace -

Opened the lid for the other furnace..anything looks bad to you guys?

Both of my furnaces had a steady "flashing red and green" together and per the specs that is "normal" operation. So sounds like I might get away with just replacing 1 AC unit and the Evap coil and to get the better pricing for furnace..just replace it along.

Thoughts/Comments? Thank you all for being so patient with me.

$1700 is pretty good to replace a furnace. If that's parts and labor, I'd definitely go that way. Just be careful that $1700 is all you're going to pay extra (these guys have a way with numbers - new math)!

Equipment is 12 years old, you plan to live there another 10 according to what you posted a few posts back.

If you're in a more moderate climate like I suspect that furnace could last another 20 years maybe more. Heat exchanger warranties are typically 20 years. Some cheaper models are 10 years.

I'd say this is a toss up. If the furnace was somehow going to improve efficiency of the AC meaning that you are going with more than an entry level AC (13 or 14 SEER) then replace the furnace for the AC efficiency.

But if you're going with entry level AC, you're back to the conundrum of buying something that is completely matched. Outside the AHRI criteria it's nothing more than a name on a box. The more critical aspect of all of this is installation. You're not buying a toaster that you simply plug in.

In 10 years you wake up and say I am selling the home. So if you didn't replace the furnace you now have a furnace that is 22 years old. In my neck of the woods that furnace could still have 10 years life left. *possibly*

You may make a repair or two to that furnace in that time. If you buy a new furnace, it may need a repair in 10 years time too. Will the new home owner care that much how old the furnace is if it's working? ( Most cases your home sale price competes with new home builds. If you can build a house cheaper than what you can buy an old one for? That's not the case today.)

The thought goes: I can buy a new home for cheaper than I can buy an older existing home and everything is new in the new home. However, once land runs out in an area... well you can't build something if there is no room. Location, Location, Location. This also applies to HVAC in the realm of climate concerns.

So you have a decision to make.

The furnace is only 12 years old and appears to be in good shape. If it has given you no problems then there is no need to replace it.

The gas line should be replaced. You can't use any copper or brass for gas. It needs to be black pipe all to way back to the meter.

Thank you Austin - As a bit of background, I am in the piedmont region of NC ,so is this considered moderate climate?. We tend to run the furnace from Oct-Feb (Peek being Feb)

and AC from May - Aug.

The Lennox Furnace we have is G40UH series.

Model# -

Up - G40UH-36A-070-15

Down - G40UH-24A-045-15

And the new RUUD will be a 14 seer AC unit and doesn't look like I have any rebates as well atleast at this time of the year. I agree with the resale of the house but I want to make this house comfortable while I am here and enjoy it, but I do get what you are saying about competing with newer homes. We see that here all the time.

Mike-home - Thanks for the input, the quotes did include about bringing everything up to code for Mech/Electrical, so the copper/brass you mentioned may be included but will check.

Sounds like I can get away with my furnace. I can use the extra $$ on a another flooring project which is a must-have at this point for us. Thanks guys for the inputs, I definitely learned a lot on this thread.

As a bit of background, I am in the piedmont region of NC ,so is this considered moderate climate?. We tend to run the furnace from Oct-Feb (Peek being Feb)

and AC from May - Aug.

I agree with the resale of the house but I want to make this house comfortable while I am here and enjoy it.

I've never been to NC but from what you post it sounds more moderate both on heating and on cooling. I know NC tends to be humid, but compared to where I live (Katy, Texas) doesn't sound as severe as it gets here. So this leads me to believe NC is moderate there as well. I don't know for sure.

Comfort means different things to different people. I can understand the need of wanting to be comfortable, but just saying that is complicated. What I like versus what you like, versus what someone else likes. There is no box to fit that into. (That is 26 years of doing this for a living)

It's a toss up in my mind to replace the furnace. Personally I would probably stick with the older furnace / replace the AC. My preference is more on the chilly side and NC doesn't really ring any frigid bells. You can replace the furnace at any time. So you wait a few years after the AC and if there are any more problems that come up you address those when / if you replace the furnace.

This recommendation would be different if the furnace was like 20 years old or more. Furnaces in more moderate climates can last a long time. (less use = more life)

I am from the Chicago area. Cold there is like -40 below 0 wind chills. So if I or you lived there my attitude would be different in terms of heat.

There are attitudes in terms of replacing the whole system: they say well I just want it done I don't want to deal with contractors for a long time. Hate to break it to you... that system will require service. New systems break down all the time. I am a HVAC repair specialist, it is my primary job. #TheyAllBreak. And they don't make them like they used to.

Good points Austin! Thank you and appreciate it. So since we are entering winter, I thought I could replace the AC somewhere in the April vicinity and I made this very clear to the tech who came by also. I was told I can schedule a day in the future but the owner of this place who has also serviced our AC's gives me this story which honestly is annoying now. Don't want to sound political but this came from the owner of the company - "Depending on who is going to win the election, there is a chance my taxes are going to go up 30% and now a $6k job will end up costing you $9k". From a business owner's point of view, is this true? I mean a 30% hike should come down to an extra $180 to the cost and I am ok with that. But sounds like now it is a scare tactic or a sales-pitch to get this done ASAP. Sorry but such comments are annoying and throws their reputation out the window even though he has been honest all this time in his servicing. My whole point was - I just got the furnace serviced and recently had freon added...so let me get some use of the $$ I just spent and why put a brand new AC out in the cold which is not going to be used until May. I might just take a risk and do this next year..not falling for this.

The business owner is talking rubbish (and $6,000 to $9,000 is a 50% increase). He's just trying to rush you into something you may not need!

Where in NC are you located?

Agreed sktn77a, it is really a hike of $180 if this 30% increase ever happens. We are in the Charlotte area..and I am tempted to just do the AC now after this talk about elections. He tells me "Yeah you can get away with not replacing the furnace for 8 years but later changing just the furnace is going to cost you more than $2k. You can pay now with the AC and be set for 20 years instead of having to replace later in 8 years". All I can say is when it comes to $$, the radar goes up like Rabbit ears for these guys. Pretty disappointed really with how this "good" installer is behaving now when it comes to $$.