Increase your search radius until you find an architect that will be a good fit.

@Mark Bischak, Architect Its not really my choice, but this is a dear friend and I would hate to see her overpay. She has a few more quotes coming in. If they are in the same range, I will know this is the market rate, And if so, I wonder if this work could be completed without an architect. The county needs to see drawings but I am researching exactly what sort of drawings and how detailed they need to be

In my area, permit drawings from a designer would be sufficient if accompanied by an engineer's report. I would show an example of your drawings to the GC and ask his opinion. He should be familiar with the expectations of your particular authority. Good luck with what sounds like an interesting project!

There's no way to know if the fee is reasonable without more information.

What is the condition of the barn? Any foundation, drainage or grading issues? What level of documentation is required for a permit? Any zoning, historic or special permit issues? Utility service issues?

How large is the architect's firm? What is the estimated construction cost? Does the contractor have a designer?

The cost of design and construction should be higher for a renovation especially for a structure not designed for habitation.

Many barns are not good candidates for conversion into living quarters; their foundations are skimpy and shallow, the structure is usually undersized by modern standards, they're not readily insulated, the charm is tough to keep. This Old House did a series years ago converting a barn into a house I'm MA. After analysis of the existing structure, they demolished it and started all over: didn't even save the foundation. Since it would be a change of occupancy (as defined by building code), everything would have to meet current codes. A few pictures of the barn would be of benefit to see if I'm being too pessimistic.

And yes an architect is needed if it truly a conversion. I'd hate for you to try to get a permit from a contractor set of drawings and be told "You can't do that".

@Seabornman I am not comfortable sharing pics without my friend's permission. She has had several architects out to bid and an engineer. All agree that its in great shape and what she wants can happen. Though I appreciate the naysaying, as is often the case on Houzz, I am not looking for advice on whether this building can be saved, though many have chosen to answer that question :) I really want to hear from others who have insight into the question posed.

@User thanks I am aware. This property has no visible neighbors and is out in literally the middle of nowhere, so though your concerns are noted, they aren't really applicable. Its a huge rural lot in a "not close in"county.

I see this often. A very interesting idea comes up and other posters need to warn that this is not possible. I assure you its possible. Not without challenges as any major renovation project is, but its happening. As a designer, I have often been tasked with finding solutions that seem improbable or flat out not doable. Difficult problem solving is where I thrive! Rest assured that my friend is moving along. I am only asking out of my own curiosity.

I am not concerned about her financial werewithal to see this to the finish line. I only balk at the quote she has gotten thus far. And its just one so others may be more in line with what makes sense.

I hope all of the architects in Northern Virginia are reading this.

@res2architect

I am familiar with extensive renovations and additions. Many, nay most of my clients are in very high dollar suburbs of Washington DC. My husband is a commercial real estate developer in the same area. I talked to him about the quote and he almost hit the floor. But to address your concerns...

What is the condition of the barn? Very good. Water tight. Roof is in great shape. There is some insulation (old but the barn was insulated at one point). Structure is plumb.

Any foundation, drainage or grading issues? No drainage issues. Lot where the structure is located is level with appropriate slope around the structure. Foundation is appropriate to a building this size (its a small barn about 1000 square feet over 2 levels.) Headroom is great on the upper floor.

What level of documentation is required for a permit? Finding out

Any zoning, historic or special permit issues? No

Utility service issues? No

How large is the architect's firm? Medium sized, somewhat popular in the area.

What is the estimated construction cost? All told, probably 100K give or take.

Does the contractor have a designer? Yes, me. The contractor and I work together quite a bit.

Converting any structure from one use to another implies both more design constraints and more design effort than starting with a clean sheet of paper. Experienced architects will likely have done a conversion or two in their careers and have a good idea what they're in for if they are selected for the project. Inexperienced architects might walk away with less than they started with and chalk up the difference to their continuing education.

I'm a P.E. not an architect. I'm not competing for this job nor defending the architect's proposed fee. I would like to suggest a way to get some level of cost calibration: If we assume $150/hr for an experienced senior architect, the $15K fee translates to 100 hours of total time to include on-site assessment and producing plans for the existing structure, design of the remodeled structure, meetings, phone calls, etc. I don't know if it includes any contractor coordination or site visits during construction. You know the existing structure and have some idea of the scope so you can judge better than I can whether 100 hours is not enough, too much or just about right.

@Charles Ross Homes my husband said something similar-- breaking it down in a per hour cost. 100 hours of on-site time seems quite excessive, given the scope of work in the proposal. No contractor coordination (extra for that), one site visit (30 minutes max) etc. one revision of the design. There were a la carte services and I can't recall them all, but it seemed like a very lean proposal for a very costly outlay.

All there is to do is wait for the other bids to come in and research alternatives. Still curious to hear from others who have done a project like this without an architect. Perhaps they don't exist and that is my answer :)

An architect is required. After the engineer’s report. Typically the foundation is insufficient. As is the current framing, windows, electrical and (nonexistent) plumbing. Etc. All to work with the existing property’s infrastructure and siting. So all of that has to be plotted. After creating an As Built.

That retrofitting takes many more hours of design work than creating a plan from scratch on a blank lot without even utilities. Lots more labor too. 100 hours isn’t far off. That's only 2 weeks of work.

100K for a budget will be a painful smack in the face. Double that and you will still be low.Thats without any decorating.

The local building official will dictate the requirements for an architect. The building officials main concern will be structural and safety. Aesthetics is a concern, but not that of a building official. I may be partial, but the best chance for success with this project will be if an architect is engaged. The architect your friend chooses may be able to handle all the concerns, but there may be a need to get a structural engineer type involved if the architect does not perform those services.

@User thanks for your thoughts but much of the construction labor, materials, (and my fees) are being donated. Without going into too much detail this is a dear friend who has done a great deal of life changing things for many in her orbit. I have no doubt we can get it done for the budget specified or close to.

Again, I am not looking for reasons this won't or can't work. To read some of these comments its as though I posited flying to the moon on wings of spun glass instead of taking on a project that has been done in many situations and locations thousands of times (and not just on This Old House)

I am looking for information about whether an architect is truly needed. I thank those who have continued to contribute along those lines.

@Mark Bischak, Architect thanks! The determination has already been made that a civil engineer can do the job. Maybe if things go south a structural engineer will be needed but at this point, it seems not to be a concern

Alright assume 100k plus 100k "donated." Thats a 200k project. 15k seems pretty acceptable for a licensed architect for a project of this size.

I wonder, are barn conversions just not common in the US? I have been here for 15 years now but grew up in Europe where they are typical. It seems from the responses here that people favor tearing down old structures to replace with new. This has not been my experience in other countries. I have done design work on other converted buildings (schoolhouse, factory loft etc). The level of resistance to this idea in this short thread alone is notable. Searches have revealed examples of barn conversions up and down the east coast. Is it just Houzz being Houzz or is this more of a cultural preference?

It's because in Europe their first question isn't "How can I cheap out and not hire an architect?"

@Seabornman haha. I was merely asking about the price. It seemed high. I actually just spoke to my friend early this morning and the second bid came in about half of the first. So my instincts were right.

To be honest though, depending on where you live in Europe the restrictions and process can be quite different with these sorts of projects. More onerous in many cases. This is why its surprising that in certain jurisdictions you may not need an architect. The suggestion to start over new by some is just not the first place my mind would ever go.

A new 200 year old barn in Europe may have a different value than an old 200 year old barn in the United States. Could be a matter of perspective.

@User wow! That is some post.

I have worked with many vendors, artisans, designers and contractors in my career. The highest bid does not always equate to the highest skill level. Period. Some people have a lot of overhead and large numbers of employees to pay. Some have a reputation where they can name their price. Some are just optimistic. This last bid is an established firm a little further out from the first. In the area where my friend lives, geography can also make a difference in price. One county closer to DC and you have premium rates.

As a designer, I am always conscious of my client's budget. If my client wants the moon and stars and it's out of reach, there are difficult conversations and alternative solutions. Not being totally familiar with what an architect charges to design a barn conversion I was only looking for someone who had done this. Interestingly no one who has responded here has said they have this experience. Lots of mansplaining and scoffing, a few really helpful posts, and ire.

This forum could be so helpful, but people seem to get rattled and accusatory, answering questions no one asked. Its a shame. I appreciate those who have added productively to the conversation @Mark Bischak, Architect, @Charles Ross Homes and @Lyndee Lee.

If there is someone who has done this, or a project similar to this, please feel free to send me a private message. I wish everyone the best.

“Because finding the low bid means you get the best work. 🙄 Said no one ever.”

That is exactly how it works generally with public contracts. You get exactly what you specify from the lowest qualified bidder. If only small residential jobs were so cut and clear. I can only dream.

I didn't see the additional project information until now. For a project this small I would be looking for a sole-practitioner architect. I'm surprised an architectural firm would be interested.