Issue with bathroom floor tile one year after remodel

5 years ago

We remodeled our 2nd story master bathroom about a year ago. The floor is wood-look 48" long porcelain tiles. A few weeks ago I noticed a chunk of grout missing from one of the tiles and thought maybe something had dropped on it to cause damage. Husband and I are the only ones who use this bathroom and I clean it myself. Hubby says nope and he noticed it too. Now I see that the grout around that tile is pulling away and when you walk across the floor in that area (middle of the room) it creaks. It sounds similar to when you have carpet and walk across a floor and it creaks. Now I'm seeing several tiles where there are hairline cracks starting along the grout line but the grout isn't missing.

I've researched a little and have heard these kinds of symptoms can happen if there isn't enough thinset used or the water/mix ratio is off. Does it sound like this is the issue or more of a subfloor separation problem or something else completely. The contractor did reinforce the sub-floor before replacing the old tile which was the original builder install, because he thought it wasn't substantial enough.

I've called the contractor back to take a look and just want to be a little informed about what we could be dealing with before he gives his assessment.

Any ideas, suggestions or encouragement that this isn't a total disaster would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks. -=Renee

Featured Answer

PRO

Creative Tile Eastern CT

5 years ago

Agree with meeting deflection requirements as previous commenters have stated. Consider for a moment that the builder did everything correctly to prepare the substrate.

A simpler cause that seems to be overlooked and most common is the improper use of unmodified thinset mortar over plywood. This will bond to the back of the tile but not the plywood. It usually shows up in the first year starting with hairline cracks in the grout joints followed by chunks of grout coming out. Tile will sound hollow when tapping on them. There is a bright side. Rip up is easy as the grout is the only thing holding the floor together and the plywood beneath will be clean.

Check for this scenario first before discussing a structural rebuild.

Good luck!

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Comments (8)

millworkman
5 years ago
Could be the floor deflecting and the movement causing the tiles to shift. What is the subfloor and joist system? How were the tiles installed? What was there before the remodel?
Renee Martin - IQ0JA thanked millworkman
Renee Martin - IQ0JA
Original Author
5 years ago
I don't know the joist system. The bathroom is over the garage. Prior to the remodel it had 12x12 ceramic/porcelain tile which as in place for 15 years - no structural issues, just ugly builder grade tile. Not sure about the installation question but they're running lengthwise across the room in an offset stagger. Seems pretty standard from that perspective.

Thanks.
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User
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
It’s deflection. Your old floor with small tile wasn’t stiff enough for new large format tile. L720. Should have been reinforced after gutting, and an uncoupling membrane added. That is what a tile professional would have done. Was this individual a CTI? What certifications for setting tile did he hold?
Renee Martin - IQ0JA thanked User
Renee Martin - IQ0JA
Original Author
5 years ago
Thanks for the reply and explanation. This is a licensed GC. I understand tile installation is a specialty so not necessarily the needed skills for certain jobs. He did reinforce the sub with another layer but sounds like it wasn't enough. So the fix is to completely tear up the whole floor and start from scratch?
SJ McCarthy
5 years ago
The material the GC used is the big question. The second part of that question is: Was it reinforced to the requirements made by the tile manufacturer?

The reason I ask is this: many people *think (even GCs get this wrong) cement board is "reinforcement" material. It is NOT. In fact it is ONLY to offer a level surface for the tiles to sit on.

A proper plywood (not OSB...please not OSB) is required to achieve a CERTAIN thickness (total thickness of layers 1+2 = "X" amount of inches thick. This thickness is to be determined/calculated by the person doing the installation.

To get to the deflection rating required by the tiles (ahem...tile manufacture's requirement needs to be followed) the JOIST SPACING is taken into account. The fact that the bathroom is over a garage might be an issue, it might not. But garage builds are notorious for being 'lower grade' than the build used in the house. That means joist spacing might be quite large. That means you need a VERY THICK subfloor to achieve the same deflection rating as a properly built joist system being made ready to take on tile. Yah. The architect had to make the space READY for tile. Which is where the 'over a garage' might come into play.

Anyway, please find out:

1. Total thickness of subfloor BEFORE tiles were installed

2. Material used to reach the total thickness (cement backer board should NOT be part of the equation...if it is, you know where the weakness in the system is)

3. What was the deflection calculation used?

4. Is there a decoupling membrane (like Ditra or Schluter) under the tiles

Was there anything else done to this space/area that might have added more WEIGHT to the area? Like a washer/drier pair? Or a water bed in the next room? Weight lifting equipment added to the next room? Or a large tub added to a bathroom expansion project?
Renee Martin - IQ0JA thanked SJ McCarthy
Renee Martin - IQ0JA
Original Author
5 years ago
Great questions. On the sub flooring product, I'm pretty certain it was plywood. I saw it and the Contractor discussed adding reinforcement. The tile product is Italian so I'm not sure that we have available their specs for installation but I'll look at the website. The only changes made were to pull out a built-in garden style tub and replace it with a freestanding tub. All told, I would expect the load to be lighter than the original build (less wood framing and tile than the original design). The bathroom always was over the garage so no changes there. It really was a swap of old finishes for new and there were no modifications to adjacent areas.

I'll have to ask about the deflection calculation but not hopeful about that being specific. I don't think there was a decoupling membrane used.

Thanks again for the thoughts and questions. I'll definitely raise these with the contractor.

So, is the resolution going to require a complete tear up of the floor and rebuild? Would be interested in anyone's perspective on that as I negotiate with the contractor on the solution.
Renee Martin - IQ0JA
Original Author
5 years ago
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is what it is. The creaking of the floor (versus crackling sound I've read describing the thinset issue) is what made me concerned that it was more structural. Contractor is coming over on Tuesday to look at it. I'll report back to the forum.

Appreciate all the ideas and suggestions!