@maire_cate

The Dacors! Those are what made me have an interest in how ovens worked. I’m glad you like your BS platinum. I drove 250 miles and looked at BS back then but they had a lot of problems with the doors and just poor fit and finish. They've come a long way since those days. I would definitely consider on the next go around.

This is one of the sites that has been helpful In understanding cookware.

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/120/Common-Materials-of-Cookware

https://www.centurylife.org/how-to-choose-cookware/

Chowhound also has a cookware forum and there are some very knowledgeable people there.

I have collected vintage cookware for a lot of years so I get to cook with just about every kind. One of the most interesting is Prizer-ware. It was made by the company that makes BlueStar. It is enameled cast iron and they made all kinds of pieces including platters and I saw a turquoise BBQ pit they made, all enameled cast iron. From the 1950s-60s, I think.

@opaone

“The older Wolf burners that we had were semi-open - basically an inner ring + outer ring. “

-—

Semi open refers to the burner tray coming apart to clean. That is the problem with the term ”open“ burner being used to mean all kinds of different characteristics of a burner. The part of the burner that gives it more flare is the cap.

There isn’t a whole lot of difference between the old ring burner and the new ring burner except that the simmer burner is in the middle in the old and stacked in the new. There are some who would argue that the small burner in the middle creates a hot spot so that might be one reason Wolf changed it.

Why would some like Wolf better?

If you were interested in stir fry, you would probably go with 35K on the Wolf wok burner.

Some people might like the really low documented Wolf simmer of 300 BTUs. Anecdotally people say the simmer on BS is adequate but they have never published what it is. Some people complain it is too hot.

If you use wider heat conductive pans, you might like the flare to be more as you turn the heat up.

As you mentioned, there is that griddle thing.

Yes, I do think some people like the fit and finish of Wolf. But some might like the color on the BS range?

If you start considering the burners as part of a range, there are a lot more considerations. There just isn’t a universal best.

“no pan can make up for uneven burners.“

You might want to look at some of the FLIR imaging some of the writers do. Read some of their writings. People have used ring burners for many years. There is a reason that copper pans are made and used in some of the top restaurants. It’s not for looks.

There is a reason many restaurants use aluminum.

“Second, for some tasks you need a thinner pan that heats up quick and cools down quick when lifted from the burner - these need even burners under them.”

For anything like that, you are going to be standing there. I move my pans around anyway so even with a wok, it doesn’t really matter. With the way the BS is made to keep the heat in the middle, many will eventually have to deal with using a much bigger pan. It will be helpful to know which pans heat more evenly. I am looking for a cast aluminum paella pan. We can use the thin ones on the BBQ but I want to cook a big paella inside.

Wekick thanks for the link to the cookware sites. Love all of those copper pans - unfortuantely we don't have a single one! Interesting that at one time Prizer made cookware.

When we downsized 3 years ago and moved here we gutted the kitchen and bathrooms. Even though this kitchen isn't even half the size of our old one we still wanted top notch appliances - we've loved our Sub Zeros and DH initially suggested a Wolf range until I old him about all the posts discussing the flaking enamel and then pointed him to BS. We only live about 90 minutes from where they are manufactured and several local appliance stores have them on display. One even has a working model and we arranged for a demo by the BS rep. but we had a nasty snowstorm that day and it was canceled. I was used to having double ovens before so when we remodeled we included a 30" Thermador electric wall oven but only use that when we have company and lots of extra side dishes.

The griddle wasn't an issue now that the kids are out of the house so we use a stop top griddle and haven't even taken the BS one out of the box. So far our 3 1/2 yr old BS has been perfect. DH loves the wok and searing steaks on the cast iron skillet. Now that he's retired he has become the primary cook, and loves baking in the oven too, especially bread.

I know there have been recent posts where owners have expressed disappointment with their BS so I just hope that our new one is as reliable as the one we have here.

Thanks again for all of your thoughtful posts over the years - and I guess I owe a teeny debt of gratitude to Dacor. They replaced my first set of double wall ovens due to excessive condensation between the glass and it was while researching their newer model that I found this site.

Maire

I have been using Blue Star burners for the past 12 years, first in a rangetop and in our current house in a 48" Platinum range. The stove top is definitely less attractive than other brands in the showroom, however I have never had an issue with cleaning:

- Food gets onto the cast iron and eventually is incinerated away.

- Our cleaning lady disassembles weekly and it comes up looking good as new.

I've heard sealed burners are more of a pain, and you're worried about scratching the stainless steel/glass pan etc. No experience myself.

The ability to pop a grate out and drop a wok in is amazing. The burners are all so strong it changes the way you cook since recipe burner settings need to be scaled down. A stir fry on the 27.5K burners is done in a couple of minutes.

We have found the BlueStar oven less usable than our Wolf E-series wall oven. In practice we use the Wolf more. The light is stronger, the racks are more securely attached, meat probe, etc.

By the way, as to the original topic, I heard from Yale that the 2021 Wolf dual fuel range won't be (or might not be) available in time for our April 2021 move-in, so we purchased the 2020 model back in November and they'll just hold it for us. Moving in without a stove wasn't an option.

Bart, when you ordered the 2020 in November, did the salesperson mention that Wolf was releasing a new range? I ordered the older model in mid-December and wasn't told. I ordered the "legacy" model as they're now calling it but would have far preferred the new. I'm trying to get more info before asking our retailer to switch it for us.

Yes he told me that, but also told me that there could be nothing close to a guarantee that the 2021 model would be able to be delivered in time. In fact he recommended getting the order in to ensure we'd not be left with 0 options for a Wolf. We plan on moving in in late April. Switching wouldn't have worked out for us timing-wise.

Thank you for answering so quickly. Sounds like you had a better retailer than mine. Ours didn't even mention it, and our old stove is still hobbling along so he knew we weren't in a rush. GRRR. And now I see that the fridge we ordered at the same time is being replaced with a new model as well. Calling the manager and seeing if we can switch. Since they're backordered, hopefully it won't be an issue. It probably will be though. Wish me luck....

I am researching stove tops and noticed there isn’t a mention about Thermador. Is there a reason ? I love to cook but haven’t ever had gas stove so I feel overwhelmed with what to purchase. We are remodeling the kitchen in a house we just bought so my options are open.

@Cheryl Liette

I posted about some of the basic differences in burners here.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6070519/kitchenaid-36-rangetop-or-other-recommendation#n=3

SO MUCH MISINFORMATION everyone. I work with the product. Blue chipping was on the old ovens. Circa 2002. Tried to decrease pre-heat time and the bake element fired so hot the metal and porcelain coating were expanding at different rates. Thus cracking. Wolf replaced everyone one of them that came forward with problems.

ALL new dual fuel ranges will basically have the M series convection oven in them. You can choose to use the convection or not. It gives you the Gourmet menu system in the ranges now. Which is a fantastic feature.

The burners have been the same for many years. Dual stack and closed/sealed. This means I can do 20,000BTU and 300BTU on the same burner. No clicking on and off of the burner like another brand. This is the dual fuel range. Gas range has max 15,000BTU.

Plus Wolf and Sub-Zero keep their parts for 20 years. It's stated on their website. A value when a small part like an ignitor needs to be replaced.

EVERYTHING is about an 8-14 week lead time (due to Covid and crazy increase in demand). So plan ahead. If you want a new range, get it on order now. Bart - you will be cutting it VERY close for timeframe. With this being a new product it won't be released until it perfectly passes quality checks on a certain number of units. I'm going to guess you won't be able to get yours until June or July.

Jen - none of the dealers knew in November about the new ranges, so it's not their fault. The dates were just released to distributors in November. There weren't even any photos out until December! I won't even be able to see the new range until Mid-March. That's when it's due in to distributors.

@Jocelyn Privett

”Blue chipping was on the old ovens. Circa 2002. Tried to decrease pre-heat time and the bake element fired so hot the metal and porcelain coating were expanding at different rates. Thus cracking. Wolf replaced everyone one of them that came forward with problems.”

——-—

You might want to broaden your learning to sources other than Wolf mantras. This has been an ongoing problem for many many years up until the present time. All you have to do is search this forum and see how long this has been going on. There are threads along the lines of “Are there any Wolf ovens that haven’t chipped?”Some people had it happen with multiple ovens. It happened to me and mine was not replaced. It is still here not usable except with covered dishes and no convection. No one wants flying glass shards in their food. I was told it was out of warranty @4.5 years and they would not even give me an estimate to get it fixed, only that it would start @$800 for the labor and then they would see. Some have spent $2500 to get it fixed. The new part is only guaranteed a year, so not throwing good money after bad. They also tell people with the wall ovens, ”we recommend you give us more money to upgrade” knowing every oven they have with a blue interior has had this problem. The M oven has the replaceable bottom that was put there to make it easier to fix.

You might also want to look at the dates on some of the lawsuits that are online.

Their other lines from dealers/Wolf include “I’ve never seen it before” and “It did happen but it was only a few“ or “It happened so long ago and it’s been fixed”. And the line “We will always stand behind our products“. When you call with the problem, you get “The chipping is only cosmetic” and “You must have done something to cause it”. All disproven by people who have posted here.

If it is a past issue, why is it addressed here on the website? And they repeat some of these lines here. Why would the oven floor be glowing red?

https://www.subzero-wolf.com/assistance/answers/touch-up-blue-porcelain

” The burners have been the same for many years. Dual stack and closed/sealed. This means I can do 20,000BTU and 300BTU on the same burner.“

—-—

Not sure what part of the conversation you are referring to but the DF burners were 15K until a few years ago. Opaone was referring to the all gas range that used to have “semi open”burners which meant that the burner tray disassembled for cleaning. There is a picture of it above. This was also changed a few years ago To the 15K dual stacked burners.

Wekick - I did a 5-second google of @Jocelyn Privett. What came up was AIA profile of her that states "We are the exclusive distributor resource showroom for Sub-Zero, Wolf, Asko, Faber, Best and Scotsman in the Midwest and Midsouth. We are the direct link between the manufacturer and more than 100 dealer showrooms."

'Nuff said. She is posting here for the first time to give "the party line". That makes me disappointed in Wolf/Subzero, that they stoop to that.

M Miller did I give any mistake leading information? I make no commission in my job. I chose this path after working in design for 16 years because they are an upstanding company with customer service. I'm not going to falsely promise Bart he'll have this range when his house is ready. I told him contrary. So he can make the best decision for his needs.

@Jocelyn Privett this is a long thread but I have subsequently posted that indeed the range won't be available in time and so I bought the 2020 model Wolf 48 dual fuel to ensure we can move into a home that has a stove :)

Yesterday I learned that our preferred Miele dishwasher is running late too. This is a tough time to have deadlines.

@M Miller - why are you "disappointed" in the manufacturer because of what a dealer posted? That's not how this business works. Dealers are independent businesses. That'd be like being disappointed that a sales person as your local Ford dealer posted something and holding it over Ford Motor Company. Now if a dealer behaves poorly enough a manufacturer might pull the line; surely you're not proposing that.

@Jocelyn Privett, in my view you did provide bad info. From what I've seen here and elsewhere the problems have persisted long after the 2002 era you cited and Wolf have not seemed to have done a good job addressing the issue.

@Bart

”@M Miller - why are you "disappointed" in the manufacturer because of what a dealer posted?”

____

I think M Miller is talking about the chipping blue enamel issues. This has been dodged by Wolf for almost 2 decades from what @Jocelyn Privett is saying. Around here it has been documented since 2008 or so I believe, so much longer than we thought. Amazing that they continue to stay with the blue enamel and sell it.

“Jocelyn Privett

M Miller did I give any mistake leading information?”

Yes, about the blue enamel, but I laid that out. That is the main issue.

@M Miller

Thank you for the insight.

Just ordered the Wolf 2021 48 inch Duel Range today after seeing it on the Wolf online site two nights ago. We, too, are remodeling and had purchased a 2020 (now the Legacy model) in December. We were told the 2021 will likely be delivered in April, but realize it may take longer.

I received the new 48” wolf gas model two weeks ago. Every 1.5-2.5 minutes the oven will reignite to maintain temperature which I was not prepared for. I’m not really sure why the oven is not able to maintain the designated temperature for more then 2.5 minutes. I had the range serviced & was told this is an eco feature. I am now having a second service call for a second opinion because this does not seem right. I called Wolf & was told that they do not specify the amount of time(s) the gas ovens will reignite to regulate heat so I may be returning the unit ...

We ordered the Wolf 2020 36 Dual Fuel in early December and was promised delivery for late Feb 2021, Now suddenly Wolf decides to not fill that order and is asking us to wait for the "2021 Transitional" model, and per my dealer, it not expected until late August 2021 !. My remodel is finishing in 1 month and I am now scrambling to figure out what to do.

@thecyclismo I was told back in the fall of 2020 that if we didn't 'grab' a 2020 48 dual fuel then that we'd not have a 2021 until summer 2021. I'm not surprised that 'summer' has turned into August; many appliance companies have been slow and orders delayed.

Would you guys recommend doing an all gas 36 inch range with a steam oven or a dual fuel range with a microwave ? On a budget and both options cost the same but both have pros and cons.

"Would you guys recommend doing an all gas 36 inch range with a steam oven or a dual fuel range with a microwave ?"

That's not an answerable question with the info provided.

What do you cook/bake? What would you like to cook/bake?

Which specific appliances are you considering? Some CSO's can provide a dry oven environment for things like cakes while others cannot so that could make a difference. A few DF's are good while many are not. Similar for AG.

Emmanuel, it depends on what you like to cook. The gas range is a more humid cooking environment. If you ever do multiple rack baking the gas is not as even, top to bottom. Electric oven (dual fuel) is better for this. I can make 3 perfect racks of cookies in the DF range. Microwave vs. steam oven. It really depends upon your needs. I LOVE the steam oven and have one. It is so versatile. The only limitation is the height, but we have still done a 12lb ham for Thanksgiving. It obviously will not fit the 25lb turkey. But the Frozen Appetizer setting is great (because I have kids). I can automatically cooking anything frozen and don't have to think about it. Plus since it's small it pre-heats more quickly. I find a lot of people who get the CSO use it instead of the oven, especially because it has a temperature probe as well. But it you need a microwave still may people will put a small inexpensive one in a pantry. The CSO won't reheat your coffee or a soup very well.

EVERYONE - on timing. Almost all appliance manufacturer's are experiencing delays. Please just plan accordingly. I am hearing this in the cabinet industry as well. A lot is due to shipping constraints. I have heard some manufacturer's are over 6 months out. I would PLAN 4 TO 8 MONTHS FOR APPLIANCE DELIVERIES (I am speaking generally for all manufacturer's). Wolf is on the lower end of this because they have US based manufacturing plants. Appliances shipping from overseas will take much longer. These are unprecedented times and it seems crazy but please don't be mad at the manufacturer's. They want to get your orders fulfilled as fast as possible!

@Emmanuel

Agree with opsone, how do you plan to use your oven? What specific products are you looking at or what is your budget? There are huge differences in convection for instance. Are you looking at a dedicated steam oven or a CSO? How do you use your broiler? How do you use your microwave and where were you going to put it? I keep one in an open cabinet by the fridge because we mostly use it for reheating. This way no one gets in the way of the cook trying to use the microwave.

@Jocelyn Privett

“The gas range is a more humid cooking environment.”

At one time this was taught and there are still many who think this. If you read the current science about the chemical reactions that cause browning and starch gelatinization, observations made over and over by cooks and look at the physical structure of gas and electric ovens, you will see a different picture.

“If you ever do multiple rack baking the gas is not as even, top to bottom. Electric oven (dual fuel) is better for this. I can make 3 perfect racks of cookies in the DF range”

What oven is this that makes 3 racks of cookies perfectly and on what settings?

This is not common to all electric ovens.

Great thread with amazing info. Question: there are mentions in this thread of Wolf having the better griddle. My understanding is that, because it’s infrared, it’s more even? Is that correct?

Reason for asking: we have to get a range due to space constraints (no room for separate wall ovens in our remodel). And we want the best griddle we can get. We’ve been planning on the wolf 36 with griddle because what I read suggests it is the best. But honestly, I’d rather get another brand if the griddle is just as good - not confident in their ovens after the porcelain issues.

So, is wolfs griddle truly better, is it enough of a difference from others to notice as an average cook making pancakes and burgers on the griddle?

Thx!

What is the other brand are you considering?

I am open to any other brand. Thermador, Viking, blue star, etc..

Wolf's griddle is better than Bluestar both in evenness across its surface and over time (Wolf maintains a tighter temp range than BS) and better than other consumer griddles that I've been able to use or do IR images of. Pancakes do better on Wolf, burgers likely not much difference.

If you've read through many threads here you should know that we use our griddle quite heavily both as a griddle and as a pseudo flat-top & french top. Even so for us the burners on the Wolf are so much worse than those on a Bluestar RNB that we went w/ the RNB and after 9 months of using it are glad we did.

I wish the RNB griddle was as even across its surface as our former Wolf but I'd not want to trade the RNB burners for the new Wolf burners.

“The gas range is a more humid cooking environment.”

At one time this was taught and there are still many who think this. If you read the current science about the chemical reactions that cause browning and starch gelatinization, observations made over and over by cooks and look at the physical structure of gas and electric ovens, you will see a different picture.

Gas ovens are a more humid environment than electric. To my knowledge God has not changed physics.

Most breads, roasts and other things will do better in gas. Cakes and some other things will do better in electric.

Some electrics such as Miele Moisture Plus do have the ability to add moisture to create a moist environment similar to gas - this is because electrics are a dry environment. FWIW, bread still does better in our RNB gas oven than in our Moisture Plus oven but we are still experimenting.

Multi Rack baking evenness is dependent on the convection system NOT gas vs electric. Our Miele electric oven is more even than our RNB gas oven. Our RNB gas oven is much more even than the GE electric in the condo we rented for a few months prior to moving in to our new house. Our RNB gas seems somewhat more even than our prior Wolf gas oven.

For baking breads, we started baking them inside ceramic vessels (we have 2 Emile Henry vessels - a round cloche and a long loaf baker) and that has solved the issue of no steam in the oven. We get very good breads out of these and are happy.

@John West

If you look at griddles, there are a couple of things that go into making the surface heat evenly. The first is the metal used for the griddle surface. This is an older article but has some very useful information. Aluminum is a very good conductor of heat.

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/120/Common-Materials-of-Cookware

The other factor is the heat source.

Thermador has a wide heat source and has an aluminum griddle. I would expect this to be the most even of the built ins if even heating is important. Some people like a hotter area and a cooler area to hold things. The griddle lifts off. Aluminum is also much quicker to respond to turning the temperature up or down. It as some sort of nonstick coating but they also talk about seasoning it. You can’t use metal utensils or put pans on it.

The Wolf uses an infrared burner. It has a rolled steel surface, depending on where you read on the website, it is 1/4” or 1/2” thick. It can be seasoned. They refer in the manual to it being uneven.

BlueStar has a steel griddle and this is the burner for it. It is half the thickness of Wolf, depending on where you look. .

I

I don’t know if you have considered it but many here use an add on griddle. This gives you a lot more flexibility especially with a 36” range. Not only can you have your 6 burners to use if need be but you can place the griddle anywhere on the burners, front to back or across two burners in the front or back. You can use any metal depending on what you want to do. You can get an add on that is fitted or you can get one that is 15”x23” which has almost 50% more cooking area than a built in over 2 burners. They are very inexpensive. I have a bare aluminum one but they also make a nonstick one. They also make a similar one in steel. I have cooked on the griddle and put the whole thing in the oven. You also have at least twice the heat with an add on. The built ins are typically limited to around 15-16K For a two burner size.

http://royalindustriesinc.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_22_48

https://www.dvorsons.com/ChefKing/Griddles.htm

using an add on lets you look at what burners would be best.

@opaone

”Gas ovens are a more humid environment than electric. To my knowledge God has not changed physics.

No, physics is the same same but our understanding has increased and continues to increase. The more you read about what happens in an oven, the more you will see that our older understanding doesn’t add up.

“Most breads, roasts and other things will do better in gas. Cakes and some other things will do better in electric.”

Many people like to add steam at the beginning of baking bread. This promotes starch gelatinization. When the rise is complete, it is better to have dry air. This promotes browning. Your CSO would be the best for this because it gives you optimum humidity. during each part of baking. Note how you do not see any residential gas CSOs. This is because of the continual venting required by a gas oven.

Roasts also brown better with dry air. This dries the surface of the meat so that the temperature can rise to allow the Maillard and other browning reactions to take place.. You will often hear people say that a roast stays more moist with gas. Internal moisture is determined by the internal temperature. The roast will brown more quickly before the inside is over cooked and dry.

Cakes rise better in an electric oven because of the moisture. In order to understand these things, you should read more about the science of the browning reactions and starch gelatinization.

“Some electrics such as Miele Moisture Plus do have the ability to add moisture to create a moist environment similar to gas - this is because electrics are a dry environment.”

You are forgetting the moisture that comes off of the food you are cooking. We are not using an empty oven. This along with a lack of ventilation holds moisture in an electric oven. There is so much more going on than the heat source.

A good source to look at the amounts of moisture produced by food is in the Gaggenau instruction manual for a CSO.. Even a cake produces enough moisture that the added moisture from a CSO is not needed In those ovens.

“Multi Rack baking evenness is dependent on the convection system NOTgas vs electric”

There are many things that come into play. You have the amount of radiant heat, from all the sides of the oven. This can account for half of the heat that is used in baking and why it is so important to have the oven well preheated. The fan(s) and elements contribute and the airflow from a gas oven is different from an electric oven so is part of the natural convection. Airflow can be detrimental as well. It is really hard to get three trays of cookies to bake evenly because of all of these factors. Bakeware materials also matter., again going back to the article above about metals. Ovens are a puzzle box.

I def dont understand the role of the built in griddle. We have a cast iron griddle that spans 2 burners, and take it out of the cabinet the few times a year we cook a big batch of pancakes. We're opting for the grill vs the griddle with the hopes that we'll use it to char vegetables more often than make pancakes. (Obviously both can be used for much more . . . )

"We're opting for the grill vs the griddle with the hopes that we'll use it to char vegetables more often than make pancakes. (Obviously both can be used for much more . . . )"

I would strongly recommend against a grill unless you plan a commercial exhaust system similar to what we have.

"I def dont understand the role of the built in griddle. We have a cast iron griddle that spans 2 burners, and take it out of the cabinet the few times a year we cook a big batch of pancakes. "

A good thermostatic griddle can do double duty and in many ways is better and much more versatile than burners. We currently have a 48" BS RNB w/ 4 burners + 24" griddle (that replaced a 36” Wolf w/ 4 burners + 12” griddle) and do a lot of intricate cooking, baking, entertaining and host local chef’s. We've rarely needed more than the 4 burners but it's also not unusual to have a half dozen or more pans on the griddle doing sauces or keeping something warm. With half of the griddle turned on (typically for us to 150-200°f) and the other half off it's kind of like a linear French Top that you can move stuff around on for whatever temp is needed. It’s a hugely versatile cooking surface.

A thermostatic griddle is a much improved version of what Sasha is doing here: https://www.seriouseats.com/2019/10/hack-your-way-to-a-bigger-stovetop-no-renovation-required.html

When we do need more actual burners we use portable countertop induction hobs. While we prefer gas burners for most tasks there are some instances where these portable induction hobs have some advantages (besides easily adding extra burners when necessary). They can be placed anywhere so they can keep fondue or chili hot on the kitchen island or the bar in the rec room. A few (Control Freak, Volrath, Max Burton) have accurate temp & probe capabilities so can be more accurate for some tasks than gas, especially when you’d like to leave something unattended for a bit.

——

There's a big difference in a good built-in thermostatic griddle / flat-top and one placed on top of burners. Built-in Thermostatic griddles have more even heat across their surface, maintain temps better over time and have faster and more accurate recovery time. Burner top griddles have greater temp variance across their surface, huge temp swings over time and usually a very slow recovery time. (However, if you have a large thick flat burner top griddle or baking steel and powerful enough burners then you can treat it kind of like a Plancha which is great for veggies and other things.)

For example, I know that my thermostatic griddle is 360°f ± 30° and that it is maintaining that for me. On a burner top the temp will drop down significantly when any food or a pan is placed on it so I either have to continuously make manual adjustments to the burners underneath or put up with the temp dropping and then extremely slow recovery time. While that may be OK for some things (veggies can do well that way on high heat) it’s not so good for other things like crepés or pancakes and it’s quite awful for delicate sauces.

So overall this results in much greater versatility and capability.

@wekick, gas combustion produces a significant amount of moisture, electric elements none. Yes, food adds moisture - to both. So moisture produced by heat source + moisture from food equals total moisture or 3 + 1 = 4 in a gas oven and 0 + 1 = 1 in an electric oven. Which number is higher?

This is basic physics and common knowledge throughout the cooking world - why do you continue trying to argue otherwise?

@opaone

”So moisture produced by heat source + moisture from food equals total moisture or 3 + 1 = 4 in a gas oven and 0 + 1 = 1 in an electric oven. Which number is higher?”

You forgot -5 for ventilation in the gas oven.

Those are just random numbers you made up. It is too simplistic and does not account for the factors that determine humidity.

Please explain the basic physics/chemistry of the Maillard reaction and starch gelatinization. How does humidity affect these processes? How would this work in a gas vs electric oven?

Just because something is widely believed, does it make it true?

There are many myths in cooking that are widely believed.

Ventilation in a gas oven is minimal compared to the amount of moisture produced by combustion.

Stick a cake or bread in a gas oven and the same in an electric oven along w/ a hygrometer probe (or do a dry bulb + wet bulb using something like a ThermaQ w/ 2 identical probes). The gas oven will typically have about 3-4x the moisture content of the electric.

Typically is important because it depends on the moisture content of the ambient air, how complete the gas combustion is, ventilation and the moisture content of the food (what professional chefs call 'loading'). So very heavily loading the gas and electric ovens with moisture laden food (which is mostly water) will result in less of a difference but it would take an enormous amount of loading to overcome the amount of moisture typically produced by gas combustion and make it (yes, plus ventilation) irrelevant.

Even in commercial kitchens where ovens are heavily loaded (think 15 loaves of bread in 36" RNB or Wolf) there will still be measurably more moisture in the gas oven. Extremely few home bakers ever come close to this level of loading. Two or three loaves or three thin cake layers is about it and that is not nearly enough loading to make much of a difference.

As to Maillard... If you want to argue about bread or roasts or cakes or whatever being better in an electric vs gas vs CSO vs electric w/ a moisture system vs a wood fired oven vs a plancha vs a Mattel easybake then that's a valid thing to discuss but saying that gas ovens are not a more humid environment than a standard electric is misleading and you should stop spreading false information that you do not understand.

@opaone

”Please explain the basic physics/chemistry of the Maillard reaction and starch gelatinization. How does humidity affect these processes? How would this work in a gas vs electric oven?”

So no?

Maillard is a post process. It is affected by humidity and not a significant element of effect. It is downstream of how much humidity is in an oven. It happens at a later point in time. When you preheat an oven for a bake and it has a high or low moisture content there is no Maillard. When you first put a bake in an oven that has a high or low moisture content there is no Maillard. Maillard happens later. It is affected by how moist the environment is - it is not an effect on that moisture. You don't seem to understand this.

It's kind of like discussing how dangerously designed U.S. roads are and what can be done to make them as safe as roads in Europe but you keep interjecting that we have great morticians who do a wonderful job of burying all of the dead bodies that result from these crashes.

As I said, if you want to discuss how well different cooks/bakes do in different environments then that's a different discussion. My concern is your misleading statements regarding how humid an environment is produced by gas or electric ovens.

You've read some things (that's good) and you like throwing words and ideas around but you clearly lack understanding of how all of these actually work and then you promulgate that lack of understanding as misinformation to people trying to make decisions. Please don't do that.

Three or four years ago several of us posted dry-bulb/wet-bulb readings from our gas and electric ovens. IIRC this was in trying to improve the baking results for Limpa bread. I just did a quick search and couldn't find it but maybe you or someone else can. Good data on oven moisture content during various stages of the baking process (and even some discussion on Maillard IIRC).

@opaone

Yes! I have found reading to be key in assimilating new information and forming rational thought patterns. I read a lot of technical articles, books on food science, scholarly articles and many food/baking forums.

I can and have documented to you why I think what I do. In the past I have sourced Nathan Myhrvold, noted physicist and author of Modernist Cuisine to you and you dissed him too.

I am happy to let people read what I write and read what you write and they can draw their own conclusions.

Wekick and opaone, you both are embarrassing yourselves with the bickering.

Thank you. We do our best.

@John West

It’s an appliance forum and people have strong opinions. There is a lot of debate back and forth on all kinds of subjects. It’s not for everyone.

If you perceive it as “bickering” I would just scroll by. I have done this myself at times.

@opaone @wekick Your "bickering" is a good read. A lot of back and forth, and it is great to hear differing opinions that are well founded.

@wekick: "In the past I have sourced Nathan Myhrvold, noted physicist and author of Modernist Cuisine to you and you dissed him too."

I don't think I would have 'dissed' Nathan in any way on any public forum like this. I have known Nathan for many years, almost went to work for him about 35 years ago (and in hindsight perhaps should have (though we both seem to be equally happy with our lives)) and have a great deal of respect for him.

Please point out the post where I dissed him.

I’ve had the new version on order since January- they have pushed the delivery date back twice! And the rep said it was stuck on a ship in the port of Long Beach- which I found to be very odd considering they pride themselves on being 100 percent American made. I will comment back on how the new DF works out in June - if it arrives by then

A merage- a ship in port of Long Beach...uhhh what!? Also sounds very strange to me. I just ordered the new DF in March, was quoted sept 21. And the rep was talking about how they are all built to order in the giant Wolf Wisconsin plant that he has personally visited.