If you want specific information, request that info up front. Probably save some time.

You probably drive some commercial contractors (what ever that is) nuts too.

I'm telling you what I'm going to do and how much it's going to cost. What else do you need to know?

Kinda vague. You having a tree removed?

Commercial contractors build for business endeavors. Residential contractors build for consumers. Different customer needs, project scale, lending standards, protections, etc.

Totally depends on the contractor and work provided. Someone puts in a new walkway for me tell me all in price and done. Someone is building my home I want details and can adjust my costs too. If we have ever asked for info we’ve gotten it. People who are comfortable sharing what they make and what it costs are my kind of people. I think it’s a fair ask but some won’t agree and are put off by it. But if there is labour plus product purchases, which I have some control over, then I think fair to separate the two. Plenty of great people out there to work with, worth finding one you mesh with

"People who are comfortable sharing what they make and what it costs are my kind of people."

How often do you have sexual relations with your wife?

That's how much the amount I make is your business.

There are big differences between commercial and residential contractors and what you can expect in terms of proposals, schedule, cost, quality level, project coordination, communication, and service. Commercial contractors typically have full-time estimators on staff. Absorbing the cost to produce estimates is a planned, budgeted line-item cost of doing business. Small-volume custom home builders won't likely have an estimator on staff. They'll need to squeeze your estimating task into their regular daily routine of building homes. The cost to produce your "free" estimate is essentially borne by the builder's other customers whose jobs will get less attention so the builder can free up time to bid your project.

If you are going to competitively bid a project (i.e., select your contractor based on price,) you need a well-detailed set of plans and specifications--one that clearly captures and communicates the required scope of work (a poorly detailed or "basic builder" set is often why homeowners want a detailed cost breakdown.) If your plans are complete, the specific breakdown of construction cost isn't really important. Indeed, trying to compare estimates from different builders on a line-item basis is likely to be an exercise in frustration. What builder A might include in a sitework line item builder B might include in a foundation line item.

When you elected to bid the project, you established that all the builders invited to bid it were acceptable in terms of the quality and service they provide so it's just a matter of bottom-line price.

There are many different project delivery methods but the two most common ones are 1) Fixed Price (Lump Sum) and 2) Cost of the Work plus a Fee (with or without a GMP, etc.)

The former is commonly used for single family homes and would not include an itemized list of prices unless you insisted on it in the Instructions to bidders. The latter is commonly used for larger projects and contains a Budget of itemized estimated costs. This type of contract usually requires a level of project management homeowners might not be able or willing to provide.

If you prefer one method over the other, the place to make that clear is in the bid documents you send to the bidders. It helps to include a sample copy of the contract you wish to use. Whether or not the bidders will respond as requested is something you won't know until you do it.

If you allow the bidders to write the contract, you should not be surprised if it favors the way they like to work and doesn't force them to reveal their contingency amounts which are necessary for small projects.

Of course, things are different if you are asking contractors to provide the design or your design documents are not complete. In those cases you are not really asking for bids but proposals that include all of the services needed.

I'm curious why you would expect a contractor to provide breakout prices after construction has begun? He's not your employee.

I've done several remodeling/building projects over the last 10 years. I provided detailed plans and the fixtures/tile. They did all the labor. I've worked with 3 different contractors, and they all provided bids that were broken out into about a dozen, or more, categories. It seemed like normal business practice for contractors in my area.

The only reason I used 3 different ones was because of timing and different types of projects. Would work with all of them again.

Joseph I wouldn’t work with you. There are enough people who would that you are doing very well I suspect.

And there are enough contractors who use a model different than yours that don’t mind portioning put labour and materials costs that I can work with. People need to do their homework about what they are getting and then not be surprised when they get it.

@A S,

I think the project delivery method that is most closely aligned with how you like to work is design/build. It's a collaborative approach that begins by selecting your contractor early on and which provides full visibility of costs throughout design. It's not perfect, but with more than two decades of design/build experience, I find it results in fewer "surprises" for home owners than the traditional design-bid-redesign-re-bid.... process and lower design cost compared with the "traditional" route. All my design/build projects are in collaboration with an architect, so design/build doesn't mean you're forced to accept lesser quality designs.

We’ve only done two major projects. One new home build and one gut job and renovation. We’ve also had numerous other things done on house like gardening and landscaping. In all but a couple of those we’ve always gotten a breakdown of prices that includes the cost of items plus labour. This works for us. We’ve never had any problem finding reputable people to work with.

Our build and renovation were both cots plus contracts with clear mark ups and transparency of all invoices being copied and shared to us. This was all in both contracts and left no room for surprises.

I guess my point in commenting was that you get what you signed up for. Asking questions before you begin and clearing up how invoicing will work, what is and isn’t included, should be part of your process in sorting out who to work with. If someone doesn’t like the answers they ask why or move on.

great answers here but i'm afraid some contractors have a tough time putting lipstick on a pig. its a smaller reno and i'm feeling that even though i asked for a broken out quote from the beginning the contractor is relying on "relationship" and knowing that i haven't engaged in getting other quotes yet as they've been the ones who have put the drawings together. this is how residential consumers become high profit margin interests. the quote is pretty rich. i'll pay for the drawings and get other quotes. thanks for everyones response.

"How often do you have sexual relations with your wife?

That's how much the amount I make is your business."

@Joseph Corlett, LLC you don't pay me to have sexual relations with my wife. Though if you're offering, I"m accepting bids.

Post a picture of her. Maybe I'll make you an offer.

Requesting an itemized proposal from only one contractor is not really "bidding". What you're trying to do is negotiate a contract with one builder without telling him that. If you don't like the proposal, you would then ask another contractor for a proposal. I know contractors who call that "shopping" and its what the builder is wisely trying to avoid.

By the way, you should have already paid the contractor for the drawings. Including the cost of that work in the proposal might be what is making it seem high.

The only place people are willing to work for free is on this forum.

i completely agree that i should have already paid for the drawings... and i would have had i been supplied with an invoice but this appears to be covered in the big quote of which i have no detail about. and i've consistently requested costing as we go with that work and not received any. just promises that its coming. i'm sure that once i make my intentions known then i will get a big bill for it.

i hope this thread helps other residential customers understand that this is essentially a scam. i understand that contractors don't want you "shopping" but thats simply in the best interest of the consumer. there is no reason why residential customers can't be treated like commercial customers... residential customers simply need to make it apparent that they won't be taken to the cleaners.

"i hope this thread helps other residential customers understand that this is essentially a scam."

If it seems like a scam to you it is due to the fact that you went in uninformed and did not communicate enough on the front end. I am not saying you are incorrect but we are only listening to one side of the story.

heinz:

There is nothing scammy about giving you a proposal with the items to be provided and installed and the price. How long it takes me and how much money I make are absolutely none of your business.

You aren't the only one shopping, by the way. Customers who ask for a cost breakdown go on double secret probation with me. If they ask again, they get their deposit back. I've got a file cabinet full of happy customers and despite recently raising my rates, I'm still getting a backlog. No time for foolishness.

Mind your business, I'll mind mine.

Heinz I don’t think it’s a scam. It’s a model of business you don’t support, others do and get great work done, both ways are fine. I too wouldn’t be okay with it. But it’s not a scam.

whatever. i know this is not going to be a popular topic for contractors. its not for you. or maybe, it is for you. this job i'm talking about is maybe in the tens of thousands of dollars but i've been working on the planning stage for work with the same contractor for another job in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. this little job is a test the GC is not passing.

in a similar vein, its all too common that when "un-knowledgeable" motorists come in to get their car fixed that the mechanic will simply fix the car and then provide an un-competitive bill when the customer picks up the vehicle unless specifically instructed to call with an estimate before commencing with the work. its an age old scam.

and it goes without saying that building customers are unable to make informed decisions regarding the possible modifications of the work to meet certain budgetary desires when they don't know what work costs what amount. its absolutely ludicrous to imply otherwise.

Budget is an important topic for a first meeting with prospective builders, remodelers, and architects or designers. If they don't bring it up, you should. That way expectations can be calibrated and a decision whether to proceed at all can be made without investing more than a little of everyone's time.

For remodeling projects, a good initial cost calibration tool is Remodeling Magazine's annual Cost vs. Value Report https://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2020/

Heinz a lot of this falls on you. If you don’t get a contract, ask questions before you start, and make sure everyone agrees, that’s on you. Clearly your expectations weren’t clear to the person you hired.

I cannot imagine hiring a contractor and not knowing what I am paying them and what I’m paying them for. We are in the middle of a house build. I buy all the materials. Every invoice comes to me, even if the builder is ordering something (for example, he put in the order for our lumber package). I get his discount from local building stores since he is our GC. My contract with him is for labor only. There are no change order fees- if I change something, I’m responsible for the cost of the extra labor to do it. No mark ups, no mysteries. It’s very transparent and both sides are happy.

Its the age old story. The man with the money meets the man with experience. The man with experience ends up with the money, and the man with the money ends up with experience.

I am a bit confused by your post.

You have every right to detailed bid information. You should know exactly what you are getting and exactly what you are paying. A contract doesn't work without the meeting of the minds and there is no meeting of the minds when either the contract or the price is opaque. Yes, it is absolutely a scam if you are not given detailed information about what you are getting and how much you are paying.

However, that doesn't mean you have a right to have all the prices broken out. Nor is their profit important to you. It isn't really so much that it isn't your business, it is that it is not relevant to your decision making. The only thing relevant to your decision is what you pay and what you get with this contractor versus other contractors. You are better off when you get more or pay less, regardless of what the contractor makes.

So in some of your posts you seem to be upset because your contractor will not break out the costs for you and in others you seem upset because you don't know what you are paying. The latter is a problem and the former not so much.

"and it goes without saying that building customers are unable to make informed decisions regarding the possible modifications of the work to meet certain budgetary desires when they don't know what work costs what amount. its absolutely ludicrous to imply otherwise."

hienz:

You'll be making no modifications to our agreement without my blessing, especially after work has begun, thank you very much. A deal is a deal. Your time to worry about budget is before you put pen to paper.

what rwiegand said.

and to be clear, as people have attempted to read in more than i've provided. i was absolutely clear that i wanted a broken out quote. i did get them to do the drawings. i kept asking, they kept promising the costs and detailed quote was coming. there has been no start to the work.

if its all my fault then thats not an issue as i get to keep my money and get quotes elsewhere.

i was absolutely clear that i wanted a broken out quote. i did get them to do the drawings. i kept asking, they kept promising the costs and detailed quote was coming.

A detailed quote and a broken out quote are not the same thing. You may have been absolutely clear with them about what you wanted, but your posts here have been a bit confusing. I can't tell if you have a detailed bid with a lump sum price or if you don't even have a bid, whether you have a lump sum arrangement or a cost plus contract.

I am not defending the contractor nor you, I understand that you are upset and you may well have reason to be, but the residential construction industry can be pretty opaque. Your current frustration may just be the start, and my advice isn't an attempt to justify it. I am just warning against a quixotic effort to make the industry conform to your desire. In the end, you should go with the contractor who is going to create the most value for you, regardless of the profit transparency.

I am sure that you don't need this bit of warning but just in case... You can't use the fruits of his labor without paying him, so if you are planning on using the drawings he produced, you are going to either need to pay for them or have his permission. Whether or not you will owe him some compensation for the work done so far is something that I can't guess.

Good luck

heinz:

I think you need to change your perspective. Your attitude may have flown in 2009, when we were dying for work, but believe me, the guys you want to hire are very busy right now.

My sink tech is probably going to make 100K this year, gets a housing allowance, and got a $10,000.00 Christmas bonus. Health insurance and paid holidays. I ain't payin' it, my customers are and they're not bitchin'. Nobody's stealin' my man. This is what it's like out there.

It's like dating. You don't get to make a lot of demands on the first few dates. You have to woo me. Make me feel like we're right for each other. I swear you'll find my approach better than yours.

thats quite the attitude even though i'm sure you're right... but in my particular situation it just means that i'm going to have to be the GC and do a bunch of the work. i have half of the entire project done GCing on my own and doing much of the work. the other half i simply don't have the experience at the moment doing. but maybe that will simply have to change.

hienz:

I'm a licensed Florida Building Contractor and my worst nightmare is trying to recruit subs.

You're a "onesie". You'll always be a onesie which means that you'll have to sort through subs to find the ones you want. Sorting costs money and time. Guess what happens to your job when the subs you want get a call from a GC that throws them 100K a year in work? They walk, you're pi$$ed, and they don't care. You're a onesie with no leverage.

actually all of my subs have day jobs... and i pay them better after hours then they get paid during the day. because they only get half of what they get billed out for. they come.

Unless you have some form of design, and product specs, you’re not really getting “bids”. You’re getting their best guess of a third hand interpretation of what you want. Given your inability to communicate at all well, and the fact that you are not really using licensed and insured contractors for any of your work, this is bound to go really well. 😐

Guys who have day jobs are licensed under the business owner and under his insurance. Not theirs. That’s a BIG problem. You aren’t licensed as a GC, presumably? So none of them are covered under anything but your homeowners. That means you are on the hook for liability for everything. Giant gaping hole of risk.

"actually all of my subs have day jobs... and i pay them better after hours then they get paid during the day. because they only get half of what they get billed out for. they come."

Pure hillbilly.

@hienz hinz it is going to get ugly now. I know many people who have projects like yours and pick up people evening and weekends to do the work. Heck we did our concrete work this summer that way. It was great and a win win for all.

I think we have gotten massively off track. You feel like you clearly asked for info including a quote and details. You didn't get it. It feels a bit like some information is missing but also maybe not and that's why you are frustrated.

Short version, to be gleaned from this whole thread, is there is more than one way to get a project done. So you need to decide if you want to continue or walk away. Both are within your rights. I hope your project ends up great.

just wanted to update this thread. found another contractor that was willing to do demo, framing and tiling at an hourly rate plus materials. found my own electrical and plumbing subs. the project has turned out amazing.

I'm sure the previous contractor would have ensured everything was done and done well. its just that i saved over a third of the cost and knew exactly what part of the work was costing what part of the quote so that i could adjust for budget accordingly.

thanks for everybody's input!

Good for you.