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jaykaym

adding a 220V line to a condo kitchen

5 years ago

I'm renovating a new-to-me 1951 condo kitchen. It currently has a gas range/oven which I would like to change to an induction cooktop and electric wall oven. They will require 220V lines which I currently don't have in the condo. We also have an old fuse box that will need to be changed to a breaker box so I wondered if adding the 220V lines is something that can be done when the breaker box is installed or if the 220V lines are something that will require new lines into the condo from the outside. And will I need one or two lines - one for the cooktop and one for the oven? And do my questions make any sense? I'm trying to educate myself before I talk to the contractor and the electrician so that I know what is possible or impossible. Many thanks for your help.

Comments (13)

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Seeing that nobody has responded, I'll take a shot at it.

    Your questions do make sense.

    First, whether you need new outside lines --- from the power poles/cables to your new breaker box --- will depend on the state of the existing service cable to condo. With a 1951 fuse box, your existing service will likely be 100 amp service but might even be only 60 amp. Your new breaker panel will be at least 200 Amp service. You (or your contractor) will have to call the utility company to find out whether the service line to the condo is already suitable (previousl upgraded) or if it will have to be replaced and, if so, what you might have to pay for having that done. Another factor that affects this is whether your condo has its own connection to the outside power or, as is sometimes the case with condos that are apartments in older buildings, the utility system power might be supplied to a distribution box for the building with the power being distributed from there to the meters and fuse boxes for the individual apartments.

    Second, just to make things confusing, most "220v circuits" now are actually 240v circuits while some older buildings have 208v. The latter tends to be found mostly in older urban residential neighborhoods and formerly commercial or industrial urban areas. Fortunately, almost all 240v kitchen appliances will run on 208 power.

    Third, you will indeed have to have separate circuits from new breaker box to the induction cooktop and electric wall oven. The existing wiring sounds like it would all be for old-style 110v or more modern 120v circuits which are not suitable for supplying power to 240v appliances. If you have some idea of the models of oven and cooktop you will be getting, you (or, at least, your contractors) will need to check the installation instructions for your cooktop and for your oven to find out what size cables to run. Cable size is determined by the appliances' amperage ratings. (The install instructions can be downloaded for your models from the manufacturer's website and on many appliance vendors' websites as can the specifications which almost always include the amp ratings.)

    Generally speaking, most single electric wall oven specifications call for a 30 amp 240v circuit. Double wall ovens will likely require a 50 amp circuit. Your induction cooktop will have to be on its own circuit which --- depending on the brand and size of the model you choose --- might need a 30, 40 or 50 amp circuit. For example, Bosch 30-inch-wide induction cooktops call for 30 amp circuits while similarly sized Frigidaire induction cooktops call for 40 amp circuits. Likewise, with a 36-inch-wide induction cooktop, the particular model may call for a 40 Amp or 50 Amp circuit. Of course, you could wire "up" (or "future proof") with a 50 amp circuit and still install a 30 amp cooktop for your own use.

    Whether or not the inside cables can be run at the same time as the new breaker box is installed is one of those "it depends" kind of things. Essentially, the more amps an appliance can draw, the thicker the cables have to be from the breaker box to the outlet where the appliance connects. How hard that makes things depends on how thick you need the cables to be and how close or far they have to be run and where you can run them to reach the locations in your kitchen. FYI, Cable thickness is designated by wire gauge (usually abbreviated as "AWG"). As with shotguns, the gauge number is inverse to size --- the smaller the gauge number, the larger the diameter of the wire. The cable required for the circuit for your induction cooktop Induction will be thicker at 8 AWG for a 40 amp circuit and thicker still for 6 AWG cable for a 50 amp circuit. The thicker the cable --- and 8 AWG and 6 AWG are much thicker than standard 120v wiring cables --- the more work it takes to run the new circuits and the more invasive the work will be.

    Hope this helps.

    Jaykaym thanked jwvideo
  • 5 years ago

    Great points above. Also, make sure everything is approved in writing by the HOA.

    Jaykaym thanked Ryan B
  • 5 years ago

    @jwvideo Thank you so much for your response. I will feel much more confident of having a discussion of my electrical needs and my tradeoffs when I meet with the electrician. This condo has a lot of electrical needs, some of which I will defer - like switching all the outlets to grounded 3 holes (and I may be back for information on how to correctly do this myself! I'm pretty handy.) and some of which I know will be best done at this time while I have construction going on. The fuse box is a nightmare but it did pass the city point-of-sale inspection so I know that it is currently safe but while I'm doing other construction is the time to change to a breaker box. Because of the pandemic I've not even seen this place in person, I'm working off of photos and descriptions, and I don't know any of the neighbors to ask them about things. Also, the condo manager is new and has no experience with anyone doing a remodel of the units, although I know many of them have been remodeled.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but upgrading the (vintage 1951?) two prong receptacles is going to require a lot more than just being handy and that work might not be deferrable when you have the old fuse box swapped for a code-compliant breaker box. The current codes (since at least 2014, IIRC) also requires AFCI and GFCI circuit breakers or outlets for kitchens, baths, and (depending on your local jurisdiction) AFCI protections for some or all other outlets. Those require 3-wire cabling and won't work (AFAIK) with the old two-wire cables (a/k/a "old Romex") that were used in 1951. Also, depending on what your "other construction" is, that's probably the best time to tackle any re-wiring and new outlets.

  • 5 years ago

    @mtvhike @jwvideo I hope that's not the case but it wouldn't be the worst thing to happen. In the city where this condo is located my daughter's house still has knob and tube wiring - and a breaker box - so they were able to change out the box but most of the house wiring is still based in 1921. We don't even have any outlets in the bath rooms.

  • 5 years ago

    My 1895 house had a lot of ungrounded receptacles, but it had been wired with BX (metallic flexible cable) and there was a ground at the steel box, so a grounded receptacle could be installed and the inspector did approve it.

  • 5 years ago

    These are good questions for an electrician who has inspected the building.

  • 5 years ago

    While old BX was legal to use for a ground in existing situations, it's illegal to do in new construction and frankly, it's problematic in older construction.


    But the answer to this question is it's almost certainly illegal (and foolhardy for someone who is only getting their electrical expertise from an internet forum) to do this work yourself in a multifamily structure.

  • 5 years ago

    So, Ron, is it illegal to replace a 2-prong receptacle with a 3-prong one and connect the ground to the box, which is grounded via the BX sheath?

  • 5 years ago

    GFCI breakers can protect two wire (missing a grounding conductor) circuits from human accidental contact between the hot conductor or some chassis defectively connected to the hot conductor and a nearby grounded point of contact, e.g., a water pipe.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Does your place have sheetrock or lath and plaster? If it's the former, now is the perfect time to fully rewire with three conductor, and grounding and AFCI/GFCI breakers, and install more outlets to meet modern needs. I suggest installing quad outlets (i.e. 2 gang) throughout.

    It's not insanely difficult to do, if you tell the electrician it's ok to open the walls. Just bite the bullet and get it out of the way, when there isn't any furniture yet and you were planning on painting anyway. Much easier to do at this point. And just how many circuits could there be in a condo anyway?

    Get several quotes. There could very well be a big difference in what everybody quotes you. But it's a pretty standard job.

    On the other hand, it's lath and plaster then I don't know what to recommend. That's much more difficult to patch without leaving visible repairs everywhere

    Jaykaym thanked M
  • 5 years ago

    As I pointed out, in most places it isn't illegal to use the BX armor as the ground due to grandfathering. It is however, not safe. The armor is not a reliable conductor and there have been cases where faulting currents have caused the armor to heat up to the point of causing a fire without tripping the breaker.


    Given a choice, I would NOT rely on it.

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