I have no idea, but your question is so interesting! I hope you find an answer.

Bart, I haven't researched or had experience with all the noisettes you grow (most are barely hardy here), but there's a possibility that the darker roses especially have more tea rose genes than others, affecting their performance. The earliest noisettes were all white to blush so the chances are the darker ones aren't "pure" noisette (R. Moschata x a China Rose), with Fellemberg being the darkest early noisette I can think of. The bloodlines are somewhat muddied, and some noisettes have questionable ancestry. There are "pure" noisettes, tea noisettes, and tea climbers that are actually at least half noisette. Then there are the out-crosses with yet other types of climbers. But obviously, depending on which tea might have been used in the breeding, they could pass on a particular strength or weakness to the offspring.

If you want to go to the trouble to research your roses' ancestry on MHF, I'm betting you'll find a lot of tea genes in their background, where the ancestry is known at all. And as we all know, there are some notoriously gorgeous, yet wimpy growing, teas, lol.

John

EDIT: though Fellemberg is darker, its parents are unknown, so....who knows what's in there? lol. Vintage used to classify it as a tea noisette, and it's known for being vigorous and robust. More info to confuse, lol.

It could be either, honestly. Maturity, therefore how extensive the root system and its ability to forage for water and nutrients as well as how well the roots are insulated against temperature extremes in the soil, can cause tremendous health and vigor issues. Raising seedlings taught me that. The really healthy, vital, vigorous ones had massive root systems. Those which were weak, sickly and unproductive had few roots. It holds true as the seedlings mature, also. If the plant takes off, it's because the roots have finally become what they are required to be to permit that plant to explode. Those which just squeak by, always have really wimpy root systems.

My "theory" is, the lighter colored ones are more closely aligned with the original species...the "wild things" which are suited to fending for themselves, whether it's multiflora or moschata. Both of them can be invasive, or nearly so, in many climates and conditions. Add other colors and the genes responsible for them might well alter the roots, their requirements and abilities to exist and thrive in more extreme conditions. And, yes, starting the plants under more suitable conditions could well alter their ability to survive and thrive. Unfortunately, you probably aren't able to alter the conditions sufficiently to test which possibility it may be.

@AquaEyes 7a NJ Chris, are you out there? I know you have some insight into this. (I swear that boy never forgets anything he's ever read). Besides, it's past time for you to check in about the cemetery garden!

John

I'm having the same issue with Deschamps, I was hoping it would outgrow it. I am quite disappointed that my poor plant has been nothing like the amazing picture in Beales' Classic Roses. As a point of comparison, tea-noisettes are vigorous and healthy for me. Maybe the darker colors come from European roses, not Asian?

I don't have any other noisettes, unless you count Louise d'Arzens, which is fine as long as it is hot, otherwise suffers from terrible mildew.

This inspired me to look up Deshchamps in Dickerson's Old Rose Advisor. There is no ancestry info, but, interestingly, he is not certain that Longworth Rambler is synonymous. So maybe there are multiple Deschamps out there, like so many other roses.

I grew Noisettes in a climate that had hot, dry Summers and my exeperiences could definitely be described as hit or miss... Blush Noisette was vigorous, floriferous, and care free... Belle Vichyssoise was threatened with the shovel. It took almost 4 years before it really began to put out decent growth OR to have a single bloom... Natchitoches Noisette was also slow to take off. I grew to expect the same slow performance for all Noisettes, excluding Blush Noisette, and then I grew Mrs. Woods Lavender Pink Noisette and it took off like gangbusters... There is something to it... I just never figured out what...

I'm going to throw out a WAG.

Could this be at least partially a pH issue? Where the darker colors are coming from other multiflora hybrids, and so adding in a difficulty in dealing with high pH soils.

I've been growing Narrow Waters for a few decades now. It never gets particularly big, but usually blooms.

The Tea-Noisettes originated as Tea X Noisette Crosses. Teas tend to come in colors from White to Pink, to light Yellow. The Original Noisettes were Ranged Pink-to-White.

Anything really dark in color has to have had "other" genes. Maybe some Multiflora, which tends to make purples. Anything substantially Multiflora basically comes here to die. So all that makes sense to me. (Mrs. Woods Lavender-Pink Noisette was as happy to be here as any Multiflora rose. Death.)

The Tea Noisettes have been the most successful for me in both the Encino garden and here. Too many small petals spelled immediate heat death to the flowers. Larger, sturdier petals (even with Lamarque) resist the heat damage so much better. Mrs. Woods grew well in Encino, it was the mildew addiction I couldn't tolerate. No matter how much water I tried drowning her with, she kept herself "well powdered".

I guess mine are really Tea Noisettes that do well here. They are all light colors to mid pink.

Wow, am I ever glad I started this thread. Thank you all, most heartily.

Kim, I, too, find Mrs. Woods (Purple Mt Vernon) to be mildewy-in fact, just yesterday, I dug out the 2 plants of it that I'd put in the year before last in disgust. I'll try potting them up and see how they do with regular watering,but they may get dumped. I'm starting to veer towards Jeri's attitude to get rid of stuff that is sickly in my climate. This is tough, because I love Clbg Old Blush so much, but at least one of those will probably get the shovel (I have three other plants of it that are doing better and when they do get a bit ghastly are camoflaged by ceanothus and other plants).

It is a lot of hard work, I suspect that I kind of like experimenting around with the different types of roses. Though I deeply dislike anthromorphasizing plants (and animals, too. I think both should be loved for what they really ARE,not for a Disney-ized version of them that only exists in the human mind. Humans are so narcissistic at times!) ,it does seem to me that roses are all individuals, in a way, with huge differences in every type...

I'm leaning this way, too. Mind you, I still want to try and grow Teas, and my garden is big enough that I don't have to dig out unsatisfactory roses to have room for more suitable ones. There's a rightness about having plants that are adapted to your conditions. Less work, more rewards, and, this is one of the qualities that gives a garden its character, making it unique.

“Come here to die”: Ha, ha, Jeri! That is so descriptive and so true of the many arid-inclined, drainage adoring CA plants I’ve tried to grow in my heavy (and winter wet) clay. Might as well have beat my head against a wall for all the good my efforts produced.

Bart, I’m thinking along Mad Gallica’s lines. I’ll bet it’s the ”purple ingredient” (Multiflora?) in some of the Noisettes that is the culprit. Sort of like all those spotty yellow roses in my damp climate thanks to Rosa foetida ancestry. Ick. I’m kinda whittled down to three healthy ones—Yellow Banks, Buff Beauty and Marianne.

Melissa, didn’t you mention on another thread that Multifloras suffer in your area of Italy while Wichuraianas thrive? Is Bart’s region of Italy similar in terms of soil, climate, etc?

Carol

Carol,Melissa is a bit further north than we are,and though there seem to be many similarities in our garden situations,I think there are many differences as well. One thing about Italy that impresses me is the fact that the entire landscape can be very, very different even within a very limited geographic range. My area is all high hills, the foot-hills of the Apennines; the town we live in is in the narrow river valley of the Bisenzio,and all around are hills covered in woodlands, with a few tiny, tiny villages scattered here and there. Out at my land,which is in the midst of a woods, if you climb up to the highest point and look over the valley below, all you see is woods, no towns at all. (that area is so over-grown by now I doubt I could even get up there, lol). It's about 633 meters above sea level (2,077 feet above sea level). The soil is very, very thin in some places, and very rocky,but over the area that I am cultivating it varies quite a bit ; one area is like modelling clay, another rather sandy. It may never have been cultivated ,and was abandoned and neglected for a long, long time,and the previous owner cut a road out with a backhoe that caused horrible erosion.

I am not sure about Multifloras. Seven Sisters is doing rather well, considering the fact that it's in awful soil. I can't get rid of Multiflora Carnea- cut it down, has completely come back with zero care, soffocated by vinca and ivy,shallow, shallow soil... Also, I wouldn't say that purple roses generally do badly for me; Purple Skyliner actually seems quite vigorous ; Rosengarten Zweibrucken does well once it gets established, Perennial Blue does well, Frederic II De Prusse does too-the list goes on.Basically I'd say that Mt Vernon Purple aka Mrs. Woods acts for me as it did for Kim in Encino-grows well, but does seem "addicted to mildew". I have the same gripe with Empress of China and Clbg Old Blush (both Chinas, not noisettes). They grow very vigorously ,they normally give a beautiful first flush (though this year they were awful), then look ghastly- mildew and bs,drop all their leaves, and then start re-leafing out. What is going on there, if you ask me, is that they need to go dorment after their flush, since they stay leafed-out and flower a bit even in winter.

Deschamps and Lily Mestschersky instead just don't seem to want to grow-even in pots they don't seem much better, at least not yet. This Ducher "Cornelie" is slow, but does do better than Deschamps and LM,but seems disease-y so far, though one specimen I have is picking up since I worked on the soil. My potted Fellembergs are taking off nicely, though want to flower so much that I have to de-bud them to keep them healthy. I don't count the one that's out in my garden-it is in soil that is like cement. It's leafless and yet wants to flower (gotta do some work there...)

I admit I'm somewhat comforted to hear that someone else has been disappointed by Deschamps, lol...

I hope I'll be able to see bart's garden one day; photos at least. I've never been able to form a mental picture of it. I would also like to compare its conditions with those of my garden and see what works for bart.

I admit these are highly unlikely ancestors of the purple Noisettes, but wish to point out that Multifloras aren't the only ancestors of purple roses: there are the Gallicas as well. I mentioned my Moss 'William Lobb' in earlier posts this year, a moderate climber if given support and definitely purple, and I doubt it has Multiflora blood.

Multifloras are generally unhappy in my conditions, or, I should say, they require careful siting and site preparation. 'Goldfinch', growing through a hedge down in the shade garden, is tolerably happy, and some of my several plants of 'Russelliana', those planted in the less terrible of the available soils, do respectably. When I can find the time I want to improve some planting holes in the Second Serbian Bed, preparing them for a couple of Hybrid Musks in the fall (if all goes well).

This may be a "well, duh" comment, but I've been more intentionally watering Deschamps--and it seems to be perking up a bit. I usually only water roses incidentally as I am taking care of more needy plants, but I decided to give Deschamps a deep, slow soaking at the roots and it seems to have helped a lot.

Yeah, I'm seeing a big improvement in my potted Deschamps and Lily Mestschersky once I started them on Kim's "weakly, weekly"liqid fertilizer routine.However I am hoping that at some point they will get their feet under themselves and be able to do well without the extra care. If not, I guess they'll have to go.

I dug out the 2 most recently planted Mt. Vernon Purples, and discovered that the soil was horriblly sandy and dry, so maybe it's justifiable that they did so badly. I want to see if improving the soil and a bit of coddling might set the older one straight. The fact is that , though Kim is doubtlessly SO right about getting rid of offensive plants, I've been learning as I go with my garden, and in some cases I think the plants are "offensive" because I offended them first, by expecting them to grow in impossible conditions!

The oldest Clbg Old Blush is going to get the shovel I think. I have 3 other specimens of it that are all doing SO much better, so I'm pretty sure that this one just has badly done soil. I've tried to amend it, but it doesn't seem to work,so I think it'll be best just to ditch this plant and start from scratch. It does make me sad, remembering all the pleasure that this plant has given me in past springs, but it seems to be going down-hill. Besides, that area is so badly infested with bindweed that I think that deeply re-working the soil will be the only way to get rid of it.