Software
Houzz Logo Print
lmpl

Water puddles around new AC Unit

4 years ago

Hello all. We just recently had our AC unit replaced with a same size unit but a more premium type (2 stage). 3 ton was the original size, and this one is also 3 ton. Brand is Carrier.


After a week, they had to come replace with a different unit (same model as new unit) because the new unit had failed.


Now with the new replacement unit, we are watching it very carefully. One of the things we have noticed is that we are seeing water puddles around this unit outside.

We clear the water and it comes back. The installers are very experienced and were very careful in installing the units (especially the replacement one, doing all sorts of checks). Nonetheless, any ideas why there would be water puddles and what could be the causes?

Comments (17)

  • 4 years ago

    Call the installer. This isn't and shouldn't be something you need to figure out on your own.


    They may not be as whizbang as you think.

  • PRO
    4 years ago

    Impl,


    Take some pictures if you can and post them to show the water and where it's coming from.

  • 4 years ago

    Thank you! Here's a picture. It comes from the back of the unit.




  • 4 years ago

    Condensate from places without insulation on line. (Black w/silver duct tape in pic)

  • PRO
    4 years ago

    That condensate looks normal to me.


    The line that is insulated on the exterior of the unit sweats during normal operation of the AC condenser. It's insulated to prevent it from sweating on things that might cause mold growth among other concerns.


    That pipe however goes into your condenser to the compressor and it's not insulated inside the cabinet of the condenser, so under normal operation you will get some condensation. Under certain ambient conditions it can produce a good amount of condensation.


    As long as condensate drains are clear and draining normally, I'd say you don't have anything to worry out.


    Note: Some areas drain AC condensate outdoors so this can in some cases add to the amount of water you might see. It could also be an emergency over flow drain... these things are not in your picture. An emergency condensate over flow is there to tell you a problem exists, usually they are piped to drip near the condenser above a window typically.

  • PRO
    4 years ago

    It appears they've taped over the insulation with Nashua 557 tape. That product is a UL-listed tape for air sealing of duct connections. The IECC (R403.4.1) requires protection of the exterior insulation including protection from degradation by sunlight. I don't believe the 557 tape is intended for use on line sets and I don't think it meets the requirements. Nashua does make UV-resistant tape specifically designed for use on line sets.


    It might seem a minor thing, but not getting the little things right in an installation casts doubts about the bigger things.

  • 4 years ago

    Thank you Austin Air. The overflow by the windows is thankfully not dripping. Charles thank you too. I will read more about that tape.

  • PRO
    4 years ago

    Impl,


    There are few good choices in the retrofit market when it comes to insulating linesets on an "already built home".


    In Texas as far as I can find it looks like they omitted this part of the code at the state level... as the code says (R403.4.1) -- no adhesive tape at all, the code doesn't say: "use this instead" no recommendations, nothing. Just that you can't use adhesive tape.


    Because this line set runs into the home usually thru a channel in the wall that is typically sealed closed there is no way to attach any protective covering. They make a paint on kind of sealer, but that sealer breaks down over time has to be re-applied every 2 to 4 years. Who is going to do that? LOL.


    Most taped insulation that is UL listed as prior approved for this sort of thing (has the printed stuff on the tape itself) will last as least as long as the paint on sealer.


    I've seen some use wire ties to hold the insulation in place, but even these too will break down, or rodents such as squirrels and rats like to chew on these kinds of things.


    In addition to that dogs like to chew on these things as well. Codes vary from location to location, while this is a part of the building code it's purpose is questionable.


    I've also seen specific material wraps that wrap the line set in a UV resistant type material, however you need a way to attach it... that again tape is villified in the code to attach any such product.


    Good luck on that one....

  • PRO
    4 years ago

    The building code in Texas adopts and incorporates the 2015 International Energy Conservation Code (IECC.) The requirements for outdoor piping insulation of mechanical systems are as follows:


    R403.4.1 Protection of Piping Insulation

    "Piping insulation exposed to weather shall be protected from damage, including that caused by sunlight, moisture, equipment maintenance and wind, and shall provide shielding from solar radiation that can cause degradation of the material. Adhesive tape shall not be permitted."


    It is well known that foam insulation of the type used to insulate outdoor line sets degrades with exposure to UV radiation. I often see friable foam insulation on line sets after exposure for only a couple of years where no protection is in place. It needs to be protected to ensure it's longevity and functionality. While the code doesn't prescribe the specific method of providing the protection, there are a variety of options are available. Where specific products are manufactured for the purpose, such as UV-resistant line set tapes, they should pass inspection without objection. (The UL listing on the Nashua 557 tape is for compliance with UL 181B-FX which is the standard for HVAC tapes used to seam, seal, and join class 1 flex duct; it's not intended for use protecting insulation on line sets.)


    Building codes are in place first and foremost to protect life safety, and to a lesser extent to ensure sustainability of structures including energy efficiency. While the installation of equipment, fixtures, and appliances are inspected for compliance with applicable codes at completion of new construction, permits and inspections for their replacement are generally not required. In those cases, the customer is relying on the knowledge and professionalism of the replacement contractor whose work may not have been subject to inspection for many years and whose knowledge of current code requirements may be a little lacking. It may be, as one poster suggested, that this particular contractor isn't as "whizbang" as the OP may have concluded. If so, they've got plenty of company.



  • PRO
    4 years ago

    Adhesive tape shall not be permitted.


    It does not say: Use UV resistant tape. Read much?

    That paint the builder uses to paint your home is going to degrade, chip, peal & crack in the sun's UV rays. No more paint?


    The composition roof? The singles on your house degrade lose the little formica stones as the sun's UV rays heats your roof. No more composition roofs?


    The hail causes clay roof tiles to crack causing hard to find water leaks and expensive repairs for what otherwise would be long lasting roof / the sun doesn't help any when trying to find and fix these roofs. No more clay roofs?


    You see where this is going?


    Now you know why there is never going to be any such thing as "affordable housing".


    If you think there is anything on this planet that doesn't wear out, regardless of the sun's UV rays I've got some news for ya.


    This isn't to say codes shouldn't be followed. Most of the time they make a good amount of sense.

  • PRO
    4 years ago

    The primary purpose of insulating HVAC line sets (specifically the suction line) is to maintain system capacity and efficiency by minimizing heat transfer--both from the environment and from the compressor discharge line and to provide protection from potential mechanical damage.


    With regard to protecting line set insulation from damage, R403.4.1 doesn't prescribe a single method or material; indeed there are a number of ways to comply with the code. This is one example where the building code is performance based rather than prescriptive. One of the ways to comply is to use a UV-protective coating applied over the foam insulation. It does need to be renewed every few years. I don't think it's a good option for the OP because I don't think it will adhere well to the surface of the 557 tape already installed.


    To be sure, just about everything in a home requires periodic maintenance and replacement. I recommend a program of annual inspection, cleaning, and preventive maintenance for HVAC systems. Renewing the coating on an outdoor line set is something that falls under that scope of work on an as-needed basis.


    There are a number of alternatives to UV-protective coatings for line sets including membranes and wraps which look better, aren't messy to install, and which don't have the same periodic maintenance requirement.


    Knowing, and ensuring the applicable code requirements are met --even when no inspector will be on site to inspect the work-- is one thing that separates professionals from the hacks.

  • 4 years ago

    Thank you both for all your insights. I'm pleased to share that, with the arrival of fall, the humidity in the air outside has dropped, and the AC doesn't visibly sweat at these humidity/temperature levels (hum: ~50%/ Temp ~70/80 outside). There has been no puddle the last 2 days. I hope that's a good sign.

  • PRO
    4 years ago

    The primary purpose of insulating HVAC line sets (specifically the suction line) is to maintain system capacity and efficiency by minimizing heat transfer.


    Wrong.


    click to enlarge if necessary.

    Some systems require both lines to be insulated... but much of this is "system specific." Traditional AC? This insulation is merely to keep that line from sweating all the way into the structure up to the point in which it enters the evaporator coil.



  • PRO
    4 years ago

    The International Residential Code (IRC) which forms the core of most statewide building codes incorporates the International Energy Conservation Code (IECC) effective 2015. As the name implies, the IECC is focused on energy conservation. It specifies insulation R-values for refrigerant piping and hot water piping in residential construction. "Sweating" may be a consequence of improperly insulated pipes (in the event the exposed pipe surface is below the dewpoint of the surrounding air,) but it's not the concern of the IECC.


    Indeed, proper insulation of HVAC line sets provides a number of benefit in addition to energy conservation including minimizing contact between the suction and discharge piping which could otherwise lead to friction and ultimately to a refrigerant leak, but again, that's not a concern of the codes.


    Protection of HVAC line sets where exposed to the weather is required as per the code section cited in my earlier post.



  • PRO
    4 years ago

    Protection of HVAC lineset? Energy Efficiency?


    Why then is the liquid line not insulated? It contains high pressure liquid refrigerant. Should it not be protected? At what point of the energy use cycle is the liquid line? How much more important it is in regards to efficiency of an air conditioner?


    Clearly you're in over your head Charles, just step away from the keyboard.


    (That being said, some units require both lines to be insulated -- but that would require you to know "exactly" what you are doing. Not just parroting things from a code book.)

  • PRO
    4 years ago

    @Austin Air Companie,

    The OP has thanked everyone for their comments, which means their information needs have been met. Apparently yours haven't.


    If you either don't know or understand the pertinent sections of the code, might I suggest you direct your questions to your local code official; attend a code webinar or seminar; purchase a copy of the commentary associated with the particular code or start a new thread on houzz.com

  • PRO
    4 years ago

    If you either don't know or understand the pertinent sections of the code, might I suggest you direct your questions to your local code official...


    You were the one who started posting building code info, claiming the reason was for this:


    Protection of HVAC line sets where exposed to the weather is required as per the code section cited in my earlier post.


    Yet when I bring up solid questions to your parroting of the code book Mr. Ross [You know because you know so much of the codes certainly you should have some answers to *common sense* questions?] If you don't have these answers, you don't know as much as you think you do... which is where the bigger problem lies as it were.


    --Then you claim I don't understand the codes? LOL. ---- yet you have nothing per your claim to back up what you put in print. Letting your mouth run on subjects you simply do not know....


    The manufacturer's don't protect the line set inside the condenser either? WHY?


    A I said before Charles, you're in over your head.


    Notes for future readers: This little spiel between Mr. Ross and me has nothing to do with the OP. This post will sit here for years, many other people will read it. It is mostly for correcting things you Mr. Ross do not understand as well as the code book *does not spell out explicitly*.