Thanks, Caroline! I can see how cleaning two separate coffee makers could be annoying.

"I do believe that preference for coffee vs espresso, “proper” frothing, and those types of things are personal opinions, and not undisputed facts."

Yes and sort of. We all have personal tastes and likes and dislikes. I overwhelmingly have the widest palatte of my family or, with one exception, anyone I know. Because of the travel that I do I've had to learn to eat and hopefully enjoy just about anything. My wife is Swedish and has a definite Scandinavian palette. Kids vary but generally have 'more refined' palettes.

Here's the thing with coffee. In general a properly prepared coffee drink will have very wide and near universal appeal while a lessor drink will have appeal but to a much narrower audience.

You may love the coffee a particular machine like the Miele makes even if "it's not that great of a drink". I'd probably like it as well. Or at least be OK with it. Some others the same and others not so much. A drink made w/ an Oracle though will have much broader and near universal appeal than one made with the Miele.

That's why I was so surprised by @cheri127's comment.

In the end the only thing that matters is if you're happy with your purchase.

@M Riz did your Thermador actually ship and arrive yet?

Yes, weve had it for 2 weeks, makes great coffee. The only installation issue we had was the error message about the drip tray but the plumbers fixed an issue w the drain. Did you have a question?

No, just wondering if it ever did arrive, and how you were liking it. We ended up ordering it as well, even with the shipping delays. I'm glad it worked out!

It was a very long wait as was everything, aside from the non communication from Thermador, everything really is beautiful. Its nice to be able to offer specialty coffees to our guests yesterday, every one was happy. We did order extra bean hoppers because we switch between regular and decaf at night, so thats something to consider. As of right now, all is well and we are happy with the coffee machine. 🤞🏻

It looks beautiful! And that’s a good reminder about the bean hoppers. I will definitely want to switch back and forth, so will need to order an extra also.

@jazzandjerz - Have you received the Thermador yet? We have one in our newly renovated kitchen & LOVE it! I’ve just scratched the surface of the different options. Hope it works well for you!

Ours is in, love it.

@shellymccrea we have not received it yet. Ordered in February, now saying October delivery. I’m optimistic it will be worth the wait, though. Honestly, the space may not be ready for it until then, if we continue to have construction delays ;)

@opaone For your amusement. I tweaked the Oracle to my liking. Very happy now. The Miele was consigned to the beach. About a month after we received the Oracle I went to the beach and was totally underwhelmed by the coffee from the Miele. Hahahaha. I played around with some different beans and found one that makes a better cup but the Oracle really does make a superior one. It's extravagent but we may have to replace the Miele with an Oracle at the beach too. (My daughter will happily take it off my hands. LOL).

We ordered last June & recieved it in April. Like yours, our space was delayed quite a bit, but such is life right now. We really enjoy the machine & will be setting up the wifi features soon!

Did you choose Thermdor or Miele?

We chose the Thermador

thank you fro the quick reply. Are you satisfied? Is it a plumbed unit? Have you had any issues with the drain pipe?

I have a Meile now and really like it but we are building another home and the $2000 plus differnce in cost is appealing. :)

I wish I could tell you! The delivery date keeps getting pushed back, and I haven’t received it yet. Hopefully by the end of the year. There is someone upthread who has one and is happy with it. The plumbed drain was what tipped the scales to Thermador for me, so I’m excited to be able to try it out.

Do not buy the Thermador TCM24PS/009. We designed and built an entire pantry around this $4,000 coffeemaker. After waiting over a year for delivery, we've been in the house 8 weeks and it's worked about 3 days of that. When I first called Thermador customer support, they suggested 4 local repair people to come and look at it. 3 of the 4 stated they no longer worked on Thermador products. The one came out and made an assessment and we didn't hear from him for 2 weeks, I called and he gave an excuse of why he was behind. About 10 days later I randomly get a call from an "authorized service technician" coming from another town that he would be at my house in 20 minutes. He identifies a whole different issue than the 1st repairman. Tells my husband we need a new brewing unit and he would order one, and shows my husband how to install it ourselves once it's delivered. It arrived damaged. I just got off the phone requesting a replacement brewing unit. This call center guy tells me they have no record of the aforementioned, and that they don't allow us to install our own parts???? So now I have to wait 3 more weeks for another "authorized service technician" appointment. I'm more than $20,000 in to this coffee maker and still having to use our $79 Keurig. Customer service is nice and professional enough, but Thermador/Bosch doesn't seem to have it together enough to be identified as a luxury brand and in my experience the product is inferior. After installing all other Wolf appliances, we chose the Thermador coffee system because it could be plumbed to a water and automoatic drain source - I recommend you shop around for other options.

Built-in coffee makers are really not a good idea. When they break, and they do, it is both time consuming and expensive to get them repaired. Some people have good luck with them, many do not. More: http://localmile.org/cafe/

We've been happy and problem-free with 2 Miele coffee machines (plumbed & drain) in our previous and current houses.

I think this statement could easily apply to most appliances these days!

Quote: "When they break, and they do, it is both time consuming and expensive to get them repaired. Some people have good luck with them, many do not."

Why just pick on coffee machines? lol

Chipsa, if you read the comment history, opaone seems universally opposed to built in, automatic machines. No matter what the situation, or if it fits the need of the purchaser.

I've had the Miele built in coffee maker for 9 years with no issues.

I think this statement could easily apply to most appliances these days!

Quote: "When they break, and they do, it is both time consuming and expensive to get them repaired. Some people have good luck with them, many do not."

Why just pick on coffee machines? lol

Appliances like ranges and ovens need to be built in due to size, weight and electrical/gas connections. Coffee machines do not so we have some options here.

If Miele or other coffee makers were more reliable (and made better drinks) then I wouldn't recommend against doing these built-in. But they are a high repair appliance. According to a couple of Miele repair people, they are likely the highest repair item that Miele makes.

Anecdotally some people have had very good luck with them. And probably 80-90% work well for a decade or more and if you get one of these and you like the coffee it makes then you're golden.

But if you find yourself in the 10-20% that will need repairs then you've an expensive (and often time consuming) problem. That's a pretty high risk. Or if you decide that you want something that will make better drinks you're kind of stuck. And keep in mind that this is only coffee, hot water, and psuedo-steamed milk, it doesn't make espresso nor espresso drinks (it makes espresso-named drinks with coffee).

If people are enamored with the glitz of these things and really want one that's fine. I just want to make sure that people think through the downsides before making an irrational decision. A Breville Oracle Touch for instance is less than half the cost, is an actual espresso machine (and quite highly regarded), and has a better reliability record.

Hi, just seeing this ans wanted to know which machine you chose and if you are happy with it. I have had my Miele built in for about 6 years now. i bought it at a discount since it had been previously purchased and returned after very little use. I have a VERY busy household and we are heavy coffee drinkers. I LOVE my coffee machine. Have not had any problems and everybody that comes over loves the coffee it produces. My daughter is currently looking at a Thermador because they were being offered their appliance package with that brand and wanted to know how feedback on the Thermador coffee machine.

@labmomof5, We did decide on the Thermador, and finally received it in February…about a year after we ordered it. We are loving it so far. It is not in our kitchen, but in a secondary location. However, it has become my go to machine, as I prefer the coffee from it more than the coffee my Gaggia makes. I love having the drain plumbed also. No complaints yet!

@jazzandjerz are you still happy with your Thermador? We have a Miele that we've had for about 7 years and it's slowly broken down over the past few years. First the steamer, then would only make coffee, but not espresso. The service call was more than the unit was worth so we're upgrading.

Which brings me to my question: Do you know if the plumbed drain is required for use on the Thermador? I have a supply line but no drain line. Thermador cannot answer this question for me. I assume if I don't have a drain line, I can just empty the drip tray manually, but don't want to make a $4k + mistake if that's not the case. They've directed me to a dealer, who said they thought I could just empty it manually but also would not say for sure one way or the other.

Metalmanec, we are still very happy with it. We’ve mostly abandoned our kitchen coffee maker, and now use the “secondary” Thermador that’s in our master suite.

The plumbed drain is not required for use. When ours was first installed, we had to make some adjustments to the drain, and were using it without it for the first couple of weeks. I believe there was even a note about that usage in the installation manual. I will say that my impression from that time period was that the water collection tray was not large, and required frequent emptying. But that could also have been influenced by my expectations of an integrated drain not being a reality right away.

Chiming in - we’ve had a non-plumbed Thermador for a little over a year & I love it! I use it daily & have had zero issues or problems. Yes, I have to empty the drip tray manually, but I assume I would still need to open the unit regularly to refill the beans, empty the grounds, clean it, etc.

Shelly, I'm glad you are happy with it, that's definitely good feedback. I am planning to pull the trigger today and order it already--I've been stuck in analysis paralysis trying to decide which way to go.

I have a partially plumbed unit now (supply but no drain) and I've not found emptying the tray to be overly burdensome, but it is really convenient to have the water canister auto fill, and the line is already there, so that's why I'm looking at the plumbed unit. If I didn't already have a waterline installed, I'd have no issue with the non-plumbed unit.

We have an old Miele cva 615 from around 2007. Machine has done well over 10,000 coffees (99% espresso) over that time period (it has a little counter in one of the submenus). Around 10 years in the pressure pump went out, but this is actually a very easy replacement you can do yourself with a $30 part you can get on Amazon. There are videos online to show you how. Have had no other problems.

My machine has always made excellent coffee, and I prefer it to all but a few coffee shops I have run into overseas over the years. It's coffee snob level coffee to be sure.

The only other machines I have experience with are a Wolf built in unit and a Breville counter top unit. Both made good coffee but I still prefer the Miele. Matter of personal taste of course, but I can say more objectively that the crema on the Miele is a tighter, richer, more consistent foam compared to the others I have seen. Excellent aroma and flavor. Not sure if it's better pressure or plumbing or the way the machine packs the plug after grinding-- but the end result is just plain delicious.

My wife and I are building a new house and a new Miele unit is a must for us. We're putting it in a wet bar area off the kitchen.

TT

"(99% espresso)"

Reality here is 0% espresso. The 615 is incapable of making espresso. It can make a strong american coffee and if you like it that's fine and good but don't confuse it with espresso.

opane - did you ever consider a Combination steam oven? Do they break as often as coffee machines?

We have a Miele Combi Steam. Combi steam ovens don't have the moving mechanical parts that a coffee machine has so much less to go wrong.

We bought a Thermador TCM24PS and although I love having it, there are technicians in my house as I write this and they have no idea what is wrong. How can Thermador sell a product that no one can service? The most popular appliance service company in our area will not do warranty work for them. This is the second time in two years (first was a faulty grinder when it was brand new and they had no idea how to service it then either.) we just bought extended warrantees for the other appliances but none was available for the coffee machine…..what does that say?!

LOL, I think the main reason to have one of these has been missed..."because you can".

Haha Roger! I know, 1st world problems. BUT, you would expect something that expensive would be supported by the manufacturer. UPDATE, Thermador has stepped up and will cover the repair. My husband can be persuasive😝

I have water plumbed but not a drain, thinking the Thermador TCM24PS has a straightforward way to bypass the drain using a plug or valve. After talking with Thermador technical support, they don't recommend the TCM24PS if a drain does not exist. The drip tray is smaller and doesn't have sensors to determine when the tray is full. They said this could be problematic when descaling and/or degreasing the unit. Since I want a plumbed unit, I returned the Thermador and ordered a Miele.

The drip tray on the TCM24PS does have a sensor. In fact it won’t stop telling us to empty it!!

Today we just purchased a Thermador Steam dual oven to replace our Miele H4890BP, the deal was just too good to pass up. In addition Thermador Star Sapphire dishwasher and Thermador microwave unit was also purchased w 6 yr warranty for all. We are strongly considering the non plumbed Thermador built in coffee machine since the sink is directly beside. I am seeing more issues w the plumbed version online than w the non plumb unit thus why I am leary. I understand the basic guts are De'Longhi, is this correct? Currently we have a Dinamica Plus, it is very good and pucks are up to 15g, it makes good espresso and great coffee but now my wife likes idea of cleaning up the counter top areas. So its a decision on purchasing either a Miele plumbed or Thermador non plumbed, I have concern seeing comments that they are hard to get serviced where I know Miele is not a challenge locally where we live. Been considering the Bosch & Jenn Air options as well. The built in units are being considered since we have to do some modification to accomadate the new microwave so it of course led to consideration of a built in coffee machine but not necessarily needed, cause what we currently have is great as is and would save us cash

@Sven E, what additional issues have you seen with the plumbed Thermador? Thinking about the way ours functions makes it hard to imagine any additional issues (outside of a faulty install). Not having to deal with emptying drip trays (which I think you still have to do with Miele plumbed I believe), is truly wonderful.

Since the sensor was replaced, we have not had additional issues with our built-in Thermador. It does require cleaning and filter changes more than would have thought, but after having both non-plumbed and plumbed, definitely prefer the plumbed!

@jazzandjerz - I take what negative reviews I have seen w a grain of salt as most of the negative reviews I believe are result of inadequate cleaning or following alerts machine provides. Seems the return drain line can get plugged w grounds and I've seen brew group failures listed quite commonly. Trying to find out if the internal guts are De'Longhi supplied as it appears brew group is. I am in Canada and our appliance dealer is seeing if he can secure a demo unit for us for under 3k which I am fine w but anything more I would not pay. These units require meticulous cleaning if you want them to last and fortunately where we are we have awesome soft city water in GVRD

Sven E - gotcha. I do think cleaning and upkeep likely have a big part to play as well. We keep up with all of that and it isn’t a huge pain due to the plumbed unit.

Since this thread came back up, thought I would add that our built-in (plumbed/drain) Miele coffee machine is still working fine every single day, several times per day, since it was installed nearly 3 years ago.

We have a Miele built in. We have never really liked the coffee. Very little crema.

I prefer my Delonghi at our other house.
I have a friend who threw hers away.
Really substandard if you ask me.

I ended up going with the fully plumbed Thermador. I did install a drain line, and I'm glad I did, because the trip tray is very tiny.

I prefer the Thermador to the Miele we had in every way. The brew is better, the cleaning is MUCH easier. The frother is better. Just very happy so far.

Metalmanec, which thermador model did you end up purchasing that you are so happy with? I’m looking at a thermador built-in now?

This one: https://www.thermador.com/us/en/mkt-product/coffee-machines/built-in-fully-automatic-coffee-machines/TCM24PS

That’s the one I have too! Love it!

Do not buy Meile, I had one followed the service advice from Meile. Had Meile do service they broke it and would not stand behind it. Terrible customer service. Rude accusatory. The factory rep they sent told them thier own service team broke it but refused to replace it.

Updating since this came up again ... it is now 4.5 years and our built-in (plumbed/drain) Miele coffee machine is still working fine every single day, several times per day, since it was installed.

We have also been very happy and problem free with our plumbed Miele CSO and Miele DW.