This happened in my Florida home. BM Simply white was not covering. Had to switch to Home Depot Behar. We were not a new build though.

Painter tried to color match, this has a yellow undertone. It is what we are stuck with.

DH was supervising and he thought it looked fine.

I should've asked!!!

What exact BM Line was he using?

As with ANY product out there, paint quality varies WILDLY from the low-end "Contractor Grades"....up thru AURA. The quality on the low end is......CRAP.

If a painter is getting bad results with Regal or AURA >>>> FIRE them! They don't know what the Hell they're doing.

Faron

Simply White is 3 coats over 1 coat of white primer or a light substrate. It's just a hard fact of Simply White.

Lots of colors of white are similar.

For example, Cotton Balls you can get away with 2 coats over white primer (or super light substrate) provided the right product and application. For my DIYers, I tell them count on 3 coats over 1 white primer.

Decorator's White from BenM and Pure White from SW are two of the best no-fuss two-coat colors of white.

The disparity in results people get with hide in whites often has to do with sheen. More gloss = better hide and also which product. For example ScuffX has better hide than Advance.

Hide is not the same thing a coverage.

Coverage is how many square feet the gallon is estimated to cover.

After hearing some of these comments on other posts and having different people post different opinions I did my own test.

Painted a black stripe on a spare piece of drywall I had in my basement.

I taped off several sections of the drywall and painted each section with a primer.

When that was dry I painted all the sections except 1 with a coat of BM Regal Select Eggshell base 1 paint with no colorant added.

I waited for that coat to dry and then painted a second coat on 2 sections and after that was dry I painted a 3rd coat on the last section.

I wanted to make sure I was using an appropriate amount of paint, so I measured each block and calculated the number of ccs that would cover that amount of space based on one gallon covering 400 sf.

I used a mini roller that had been saturated and then rolled off on paper until it was no longer distributing paint when rolled without pressure. I placed the measured amount of paint in the center of each space and then rolled with the mini roller.

The black stripe was still visible with just the primer and one coat of paint, but completely disappeared with 2 coats of paint. Coverage was not improved by adding a 3rd coat.

If it is taking more than 2 coats they are not using the appropriate, recommended amount of paint.

Jennifer-

Good job! Cool test & pics!!

Faron

My painter has often complained about the coverage for Simply White. He has had problems with this color specifically.

The only painters who don't complain about Simply White are the ones who have never used it.

Cool test. Be even more interestingv o test Simpky white which seems to be the one color everyone complains about

We used Benjamin Moore White Dove over a teal and peach wall (previous owner; not my doing!), and 3 coats later there is still a green tinge to the paint. This was in Decmeber of 2021, so not long ago.

@Marie Schatz - We don't see this complaint just with Simply White - it seems to be said about most of the most popular white colors. Chantilly Lace, Simply White, any white by SW with the High Reflective White base . . . Sometimes the painter is saying 3 coats, sometime 4 and I have even seen people saying 5 coats didn't cover.

The truth is that what makes your paint opaque is the amount of titanium dioxide in the paint base. The whiter the base the more opaque it will be.

Using a deep accent base has caused me many more issues than using a white base. This is easily explained when you look this photo (not mine - stolen from the internet). Base 3 is kind of like elmer's glue - white when you put it on but clear when it dries. Paint red over white and then white over red and see which one covers in fewer coats. White will cover red more easily because white is more opaque. It is hard to get red to cover white because the base is transparent and the red colorant is one of the more transparent colors. This is why they tell you to use a gray primer when painting with red. Otherwise you keep seeing pink bleed through your red.

This article gives a good explanation without being overly technical

https://nwrenovation.com/painting-articles/touching-all-the-bases/

Tint Base

Paint producers provide a number of bases: tintable white, pastel base, light base, medium or mid-base, deep base, accent base, ultra-deep base, and neutral base. Each tint base has a different amount of titanium dioxide, the key ingredient for ensuring the desired color and hiding power (the ability of the dry paint to mask the previous surface color)...

How It Works

Titanium dioxide gives opacity by scattering visible light, while colored pigments give opacity by absorbing light. The more titanium dioxide in paint, the more light is scattered and the more opaque and white the paint appears. Light does not reach below the titanium dioxide layer, so it cannot reveal the color that was painted over. This is why white or pastel colors are more likely to cover in one coat than dark paints which have little or no titanium present.

@telesaps Have you considered that it may actually be the paint color you picked and not the coverage. I am not trying to be smart of mean spirited, it is just that you picked White Dove which is often described as a yellow undertone with a bit of gray or as having greige undertones, , , (Greige is the nueutral color between green gray and green beige)

When you add gray to yellow it will look green.

Depending on the other colors in a room it really isn't all that uncommon for White Dove to look a bit green.

@Jennifer Hogan, oh my gosh! You are the first person to say that White Dove can look a little green! I searched online to see if White Dove leans green and never found anything, but your explanation makes sense and this could be the cause. I did paint a small square of Simply White over the White Dove, which looks pretty white (no green), but wondered if it was because it was a 4th coat. Thank you so much!

I've been painting my own interior spaces ever since I was a teen and helped my parents paint my bedroom. A few years back I painted my son's room in BM Simply White Aura matte. It was already painted some beige color and I just rolled 2 coats of Simply White on it. No issues with coverage. It covered just like the BM Grant Beige, BM Edgecomb and BM Seapearl I had used in other rooms around that time.

Maybe some of these painters are watering down the paint or spreading it too thin or just want to charge more in labor for extra coats?

SImply white is a lighter, cleaner color than White Dove. My absolute favorite clean warm white is a color match that I get at Benjamin Moore for Devine Color Icing. They have a formula in their computer system that is a dead ringer for the original. (Devine Color was bought out by Valspar/Sherwin Williams and discontinued. SW does not have a formula match in their system for the color and was unable to do a good match to my sample.)

Instead of yellow and gray Devine Icing has just a touch of an orange/yellow colorant which keeps it from ever going green. I have a lot of reds and purples that lean red, so the smallest amount of green in my neutrals waves it's little arms and sings out at the top of it's lungs.

What is the name of the Benjamin Moore color that matches Devine Icing please?

There must be something wrong with the paint. I used simply white all throughout my house on trim and cabinets and it covered fine...I did two coats, just as I did with all my other colors.

This is what is on my label 'Match of Devine Color™ V0101W Icing'

What line of paint are they using

I have gotten it in both Regal Select and Advance.

There are a few BM-Whites with just S1 or S2 in them. Then....varying amounts of Y3, sometimes Y2. Technically, this combo DOES produce a VERY LIGHT Olive tone! It's doesn't read like that to MY eye anyway.....

When formula's add a type of "Red" in with the above Colorants (like R1, R2, or R3), THEN you get into the wild world of "Beiges"!

The "Solids" (Percent Volume Solids):

Interior AURA Matte = 47%

Interior AURA Matte Bath & Spa =45%

Interior Regal-Select Matte = 40.5%

Interior Ben = 35%

* Why did I list these?

* When you start getting to 40% & above PVS....If someone can't get Opacity from a White-Base BM Regal or AURA level color......they should be working at mcdonalds. PERIOD.

* Mil-thickness recommendation for R-S Eggshell 3.8m Wet....1.5m Dry.

* Many occasional painters fall well short of this!!!

Faron

If you mix yellow and gray you do get olive

My painter recommends mixing 50% Simply White with 50% Super White. He says that the mix looks very close to Simply White but will cover better than 100% Simply White. He put up a sample on my walls today and I must say, I did like the color. Definitely less yellow than Simply White but I'm worried that the Simply White sample looks yellow because its up against all the white primed walls. Has anyone done this mixed formula?

No, but considering Simply White has poor hide no matter what product you get it in, that's kind of a genius idea.

I'm never a proponent for reaching into a bag of custom mixing tricks but good on him for coming up with a solution to a common problem. If Simply White didn't have hide issues, there wouldn't be a need for a solution like this to a problem that doesn't exist.

If you like the color go for it. Yes Simply White looks more yellow because it is next to your primer.

My honest opinion on the coverage issue is that it is poppycock, The coverage isn't coming from a couple of drops of colorant, it is coming from the titanium dioxide in the base, but along with the science that proves this there are also tons of studies that show that people don't change their minds based on fact.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

Lol Jennifer!

I prefer the more "Classy" phrase from good-ol' "Stormin' Norman" Schwartzkopf.....

"Bovine Scatology".

Separately-

Hope you're doing fine & staying busy Fun-C???? 😇😍

Faron

I have heard the same with some sherwin williams whites - had a post on this w/ Whitetail mixed in HRW base vs Extra White base (I think that's the name of the second base...... may have got that wrong).

My painter was just ranting about the HRW base and did not want to use any paint that was mixed in that base b/c he said, even with primer, that it wouldn't cover the deep brown paint on my walls.

From talking w Sherwin WIlliams we figured out the whites with issues were the whites with brighter LRV - those had to be mixed in the HRW base. Even Sherwin Williams people admitted those whites have problems with coverage.... so it was hard to argue with my painter. In the end I went with WhiteTail mixed in the Extra White base rather than forcing the issue.

I have a feeling the brighter Benjamin Moore whites are similar.

My painter couldn't guarantee that mixing the Super White with the Simply White would completely take care of the coverage issue so I decided to just go all Simply White (walls, trim, ceiling in different sheens). Hoping its the right call!I

Uffda.....

I'll just bow out of this one gracefully.

Faron

about the HRW base

High Reflective White is a PITA in general. Product roulette with regards to which base you can get it in normal times. Add supply chain issues and product shortages to that and I'm pretending it doesn't exist. Like, "you mean Extra White, right?" 😊

Well, after all of this, I went over to the house today and they painted two coats of the Simply White on the ceiling, one coat on the trim and one coat on the walls (all different sheens, all Simply White). The walls have a yellow/green tint to me, even my husband though they looked a bit green. The trim in satin finish is the Simply White I expect and the ceiling looks fine. I'm completely frustrated. Too late to do anything about it now, it's too costly to change. Maybe it's the sheen on the walls which is matte (not flat, not eggshell, but matte). They have another coat to do and I'm wondering if I should change the sheen to eggshell.

I guess we were all concentrated on the coverage issue, including yourself, and we didn't discuss how to sample paint colors or if the color was the right color in your new home.

Typically Simply White is described as looking yellow, not green, but I have seen where people reported it looking green in their homes, with their lighting and their color scheme.

We notice the colors on walls more than ceilings or trim because it is a large vertical surface. It also gets more light reflecting off of it than the ceiling/trim.

I honestly don't know if sheen will help in this situation. The only way to know would be to test and it sounds like you are out of time. In your situation I may go for change and cross my fingers that it makes the difference.

The walls have a yellow/green tint to me, even my husband though they looked a bit green.

Nothing but experience to reference in this case. White paint colors need to dry. Can't judge any color until it's had some time to breathe, kinda like wine but white especially.

There's a chance the greeness will get better as it cures. I've seen it happen more than once. Not every time... but there's hope for sure.

get a different painter. If the paint was thinned to be sprayed, that can cause. Fresh start high hiding primer works well as a base coat. Regal Select should cover well in 2 coats with proper application.

Absolutely !!! I’m a painter for 20 years and in the process of a new home which is all Simply white ; walls took primer ( tinted ) and 2 coats but trim 3-4 coats . It is terrible.

Hello, I am having the same exact problem with Benjamin Moore whites.. I was told by my painter it is all of the Benjamin Moore white shades. He wanted me to use either the Sherwin Williams SuperPaint or Duration, but I didn't believe him because according to the "research" B.M. had more colorant and was supposed to be a better quality paint. Well, my painter was correct and the propaganda on the internet was wrong. The supposed "designers" saying they use the BM paint all the time, I now think it's a bunch of paid lies.

I just finished painting in Mascarpone, which is warmer than Simply White. (I actually preferred the Simply White color when we put the sample on our wall, but it didn't work as well next to our stone fireplace.) Anyways, all the walls required a minimum of 3 coats. The walls were brown and tan from the prior owner, and we used a Zinsser primer first, so they were not totally dark to begin with. I personally will never be using BM paint again after this experience. The Aura cost a fortune and definitely not worth it and it still smells even though Zero VOC. (I may try Clare.) Also we used the Aura Bath & Spa matte for the master bathroom, and the painter said it was hard to work with. I wanted to use the BM Advance Trim because it had zero VOCs, but that was the worst paint. Runs all over the place and very poor coverage in the Mascarpone color. Four-five coats on all the trim. Overall my labor expense is atrocious on this project. For the rest of the house (bedrooms) I am switching to a different brand.

I've posted before on this thread about having no issues with BM Aura paint, in any color. We moved into our new house beginning of the year. I had most of the public room done by the painters in BM Aura Matte in Winds Breath. We moved in and I didn't like the color, so I decided to repaint it myself in BM Aura Matte in White Dove. This is a good size house with 10 to 12 ft ceilings, I'm not young any more and I'm doing it myself.

I decided to cheat and try to get away with just one coat. It was a fine line of saturating the brush and rollers to get maximum coverage in just one coat, but keeping an eye for drips and paint sagging after I moved away from each section. I missed a few spots that required me to go back and fix, but I got good coverage with just one thick coat. I really do not get the argument that you need 3+ coats to cover with these whites. Just not my experience over the years.

I've been taking my time getting it done. You get a workout going up and down a step ladder for 12 ft ceilings! Just have the bathrooms and laundry room left to do, but probably need to switch to a different off-white for those so I have my color boards back out.

Hi chispa, I am glad you are having better luck than me. We had to clean all of our walls and trim first before painting, and invested in a fantastic rolling scaffold from the Big Box home improvement stores -- the Werner rolling scaffold with 1000 capacity. (Which might have been overkill but it is so sturdy and nice.) You do need two people to disassemble and reassemble, but it is super easy. It has been worth it's weight in gold because we are like you with the 10 ft ceilings and 11-12 ft trey ceilings in multiple rooms. I offered the pros my scaffold, but they choose to move their very light-weight but sturdy ladders around for the cutting in, and everything else they used the long-handled paint roller. They zoomed right along with that long roller. Good luck with your project!

I don't fully understand how "professional" painters are having so many more issues than I have had as a non-pro.

I painted a home white on white back in the late 1980s with whatever was considered the "best" paint available at Home Depot. One coat primer, 2 coats of paint.

Since then I have used many different brands of paints on many different homes and have covered white with burgundy with 2 coats and have covered fire engine red with white in 2 coats. I have not had coverage or wear issues with BM Regal Select, SW Duration, C2 Luxe, Devine Paint, Miller Evolution, Valspar or Behr paints. I used Advance on my trim and doors in my current home and after testing on a couple of test boards in my basement before spraying my doors and trim, I had no issues with runs or drips. I did have some issues applying too heavy of a coat of some of the test boards. I have also used and gotten really good results with C2 Cabinet and Trim.

Are the pros actually using the appropriate amount of paint, are they thinning, what are they doing that they can't figure this out? Experience should ensure better results, not worse results than a typical DIY homeowner results.

I do have an affinity for Miller Paint Evolution, but I can't buy it here on the East Coast. I also really love the colors available in the C2 paint and would love nothing more than to support smaller businesses, but their closest store is over 2 hours away, so I have chosen to use BM on my current home as I can get it locally as long as I don't need anything on a Sunday (our local BM is closed on Sundays).

Last room I painted. Trim and door were tan, walls were all wallpaper over plaster that had not been primed or painted prior to wallpaper treatment that was applied over 50 years ago, so walls had extensive patch work prior to painting. Ceiling had yellow / brown staining due to previous water damage. I did use a coat of Zinsser Gardz over the plaster where the wallpaper glue had absorbed into the top coat of plaster to seal the surface and not have yellow glue stain come through.

Walls and Ceiling were painted using one coat of Zinsser 123 primer, 2 coats Regal Select, Doors and window trim had one coat Zinsser 123 primer 2 coats Advance. I had zero coverage issues including the white inside the closet.

Like chispa and Jennifer Hogan, I'm also mystified by some of these difficulties. We painted our first floor with Aura Mascarpone several years ago. DIY job, 2 coats, done. Most walls would have been ok with one coat. Just had everything repainted professionally, Aura Simply White. 2 coats again, and it looks great.

I think, like Faron alluded to several posts ago, the main variable is the paint(er) and not the paint.

I don't think you have full control of a roller on a long pole and you certainly can't see how much paint is being applied to a surface when your face is several feet away from it.

I use a standard roller with no extension and a tall step ladder. I work in 4ft x 4 ft sections and I'm never more than 2 ft away from the surface I am painting. I can see exactly how much paint I am putting on the walls. When I say I get a workout painting, I mean it!

Would I be able to make money doing it my way? Nope, but it is why I started doing my own painting 25 years ago. I was doing a better job than the painters I was paying. On one house I also realized that the painter needed glasses for close up work but didn't wear them. I have that issues myself now, so in addition to going up/down the step ladder, I am also putting the reading glasses on/off depending on what I'm doing.

If someone who applies paint products for a living assesses your project and explains that “x” number of coats are needed to achieve the color you want, believe them.

If less ends up being required, to meet that standard, great.

But doubt it will because they paint for a living.

They’re not sharing anecdotal advice or speculating what might happen after painting up a few sample boards.

They’re telling you what it’s going to take to meet their standard of excellence.

Which may not necessarily be the same standards as someone for whom two coats will do.

@Faron79

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-people-favor-opinion-over-scientific-evidence/

My painter uses BM Ultra Spec. Covered up yellow walls so dayglo bright they verged on being blinding. I believe it took him 3 coats, no primer, color Moonlight White -- you would never in a million years think those walls were once yellow, not a trace of it to be seen, and yellow is a b*tch to cover.

ETA: Moonlight White is one down on the paint strip from Simply White, 2143-60 and 2143-70, respectively.

@Jennifer- Nice article.

Now, to digress, in the work arena, how does one even begin to explain to another adult the concepts of scientific thinking and statistics and epidemiology, much less applying these to a thought problem?

Can someone suggest what i should tell the painter I hired to get them to do a slightly heavier coat? They did two coats and it didn’t completely hide. Then did a sample third coat and it is close but didnt quite hide. They are coming in a couple days to do a third coat on the rest of the house and I would prefer not to pay him for a fourth. This is regal select, Chantilly lace, covering a dark tan goldish color. I believe they are applying the coats too thin but i also don‘t want drips. Hiring a different painter isn’t an option at this point because it is time sensitive unfortunately.

Did they do a primer coat? Are they spraying or rolling? If they are rolling watch how they roll, are they loading the roller and covering about 3' x 2' section of wall and reloading? Another way to tell if they are doing thin coats is to calculate the number of square feet they have painted. One gallon of Regal Select should cover 400 sq feet with one coat of paint. Did they use enough paint?

Sounds like they did not do a primer coat. That would be hard to believe if these are pros.

If I was going to paint Chantilly Lace over a med/dark color, I would definitely have used a primer, specially with the cost of BM paint these days.

Primer would have saved a few $$.

Debatable whether it would have helped with hide.

Three coats is normal for many colors of white over average substrate.

Dunn-Edwards formulated 10 hi-hide whites because this is a well-known fact among paint & color professionals. We specify accordingly.

IME, four is unusual but not unheard of.

Ok, well, guess what? I just had my home office done in Moonlight White (see my post above -- it's the next one down from Simply White), and this time it took FOUR coats. Actually, he ended up priming with two coats of primer then two coats of paint.

I asked him why four coats this time when he did the other day-glo yellow walls with only three. His explanation was it has to do with what color you're covering. This white is in the Y family, and he painted over yellow the last time -- yellow covers yellow better than yellow covers blue, which was the color he was painting over this time, it was a rather saturated mid-tone blue-purple. So it took more coats.

I have no idea whether he's FOS or not, and really it doesn't matter -- his paint job is superb -- supremely even, complete coverage. At the end of the day, that's what I'm paying for.

He’s not FOS.