Can I use the Google Nest Learning Thermostat?

You could use it, but due to the algorithmic controls of the Bosch outdoor unit over time during certain *ambient conditions* the nest will do things in opposition of what the Bosch inverter is doing or trying to do. My suspicion is it goes down like some kind of cat fight, that the nest will win because it is the control that provides the signal. That doesn't spell comfort, ironically enough. Google is a search engine, not an HVAC expert if you know what I am saying... They get into this to track you and what you are doing --- why else?

That will lead to trouble calls that essentially go no where fast unless you find someone like me with a unique set of skills, skills that I have acquired over a very long HVAC career. (ha, ha... I'll think of more ways to spin this as time goes on.)

Click to enlarge

I ran a trouble call at a house last year with at least 2 nests in it. I had recently repaired one of the units.

The customer calls me back says what I did isn't working. I ask him if he is sure the nest isn't acting up as I had another call at least a year or two earlier out there where one of his furnaces was acting up in heat mode, cutting out sporadically. Nest 100%.

So I get back out there run my checks 20F split. System running like a top. (just a regular ac, nothing fancy). I show him temp drop numbers etc. Tell him it must be the nest, I am not seeing any problem.

I get ready to wrap things up we are standing out by the condenser discussing things and all of a sudden the condenser shuts off. I tell him -- that should not have shut off.

Go up there to the stat the stupid thing cut out and has a timer counting down until it will restart.

Wound up replacing that hockey puck for a standard programmable T-stat. Customer calls me back a day later, says the AC is working great.

IMO --- nests are a guaranteed call back, not a matter of if but when.

--------------------------

What can you do?

I have a customer with Bosch BOVA60 2.0 running with an Ecobee for past 2 years now, no issues currently. He has an app on his phone in which he can control the machine remotely if he wants.

His system was previously a Trane 2 speed, 16 SEER AC.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

I have read the Bosch inverter does not require a proprietary thermostat. If that is true then I don't see why you would have a problem using the Nest Learning or as stated above the Ecobee thermostat. This assumes the Nest is properly installed with a C wire connection. I suggest you try the Nest you already own and see how it works.

It is not clear if you have an American Standard air handler. The model number you posted is the blower. I would curious to know how the Bosch condenser communicates with a non-Bosch air handler and how the inverter in the condenser is controlled.

Thanks for the responses. Its definitely an American Standard Handler unless someone slapped a fake plaque on it :) (see the picture below).

So for Austin Air Company what about mike_home's suggestion? Since I already have the Google Thermostat if I tried it and the system works does that mean it ACTUALLY WORKS. I've seen a comment by someone in another forum saying just because the heat and air come on as they should doesn't mean the heat pump is working properly. I specifically wanted this model/setup for the true variable speed because its located in a large closet adjacent to the living room so I didn't like the noise the furnace made and this should be significantly quieter especially here in Southern California where it doesn't get real cold or hot which means I shouldn't see (or hear) a lot of "peak" operation.

So if I install it and it "works" meaning it calls for heat and air when it hits a certain temperature am I "good". The BIG issue for me is the current Bosch Thermostat doesn't show me the temperature (the screen fades to black and you have to tough it to see the display) whereas the Google would recognize movement and turn on so I could see the temperature. Perhaps the answer might be the Ecobee. I was told by the installer I should use the Bosch thermostat but of course that's probably because they don't want to deal with coming back out if some other thermostat doesn't work.

So for Austin Air Company what about mike_home's suggestion?

mike_home is a home owner that lives in New Jersey. I've already posted everything you need to know. Best to ignore mike_home. I trouble shoot systems with nests all the time. I've been on this board a number of years plus I live in a climate that is hot 9-10 months of the year. I'm well aware of the capacity in which mike_home works from.

Not trying to be mean... those are the facts. How many systems with nests has mike_home trouble shoot in person? 0

mike_home has "some" knowledge. But he likes to pretend he knows more than what he does when he doesn't do this job professionally. There is no filter on this board other than me. There's more than mike_home that does this on this board.

The customer I have with the ecobee, has a Trane furnace & Trane Coil with the Bosch Condenser. (it's magic)

It's not a matter of just hooking up the nest to the system with a Bosch that turns on and you say "see it works". At some point the Bosch (which doesn't elude to specifically when) because their algorithim is theirs... it eventually fights with the nest, at the expense of your comfort.

The BIG issue for me is the current Bosch Thermostat doesn't show me the temperature (the screen fades to black and you have to tough it to see the display) whereas the Google would recognize movement and turn on so I could see the temperature. Perhaps the answer might be the Ecobee

You can use any thermostat with the Bosch it doesn't have to be a Bosch thermostat. The con is that Bosch tells us contractors NOT to use the Nest and be wary of ANY smart type thermostat. It doesn't matter if you have a C (common) wire or not. So if you don't like the ecobee choose another thermostat designed to control the modes of what your system entails. Like if this is using the heat pump mode operation then you need a thermostat that has heat pump options.

NOW ---If you wish to ignore me and do the nest anyway... go ahead. You wouldn't be the first to think you know something more than me. I have always said... if you think you know more than me then you don't need me.

I tell you like it is regardless of what I think you might like. Because I don't care what you think or mike_home I only care for what "works". Not just for maybe a few weeks or two.

I don't run a gimmick of the month club here in Katy, Texas. There are plenty of other choices that do that. While this comment above is somewhat outside the bounds of this conversation / thread I put it out there for those who may stumble across this thread days, weeks, months & years later.

So you understand where I am coming from (the exerpts above may seem misdirected) I have yahoos that contact me all the time requesting things that won't work. They think they know something. It's a mile in my shoes sort of thing. I don't have time for "any" nonsense in my life. So these statements of mine are looking miles down the road for those who may read this later.

I service the Katy, Texas area in case you missed it.

We don't have a Bosch inverter just your run of the mill heat pump in a hot climate and have had no problems with our Nest thermostat in 5+ years.

As of 2018, over 11 million Nest thermostats have been sold. The sales numbers don't lie. It is not the best thermostat, but it works when properly installed. There are reasons why some installations don't work.

What is the model number of the Bosch thermostat? I would like to read the installation document to see if there is anything unique about it that would prevent the use of the Nest thermostat.

IIRC, Bosch inverter systems are said take a regular type of thermostat per details provided in previous discussions, which is touted as one of the advantages of them vs. other variable-speed units that require proprietary communicating thermostats for full efficiency. Bosch varies the compressor speed (and cooling or heating capacity) via algorithms in the system's onboard controller PCB, presumably using data such as outdoor temperature sensors and accumulated historical runtime curves accordingly to those temperatures. I'm not familiar with the features of the various choices of Nest models but some of them are touted as "learning" thermostats which also presumably have algorithms that respond to user occupancy and temperature adjustments ... which may clash with what the Bosch wants to do and/or prevent it from attaining highest efficiency.

I am not an HVAC contractor servicing the Katy, TX area, although I live an hr-ish from the area.

The Nest generation 3 has an eco mode. It can be turned off with the app if causes an conflict. I would recommend turning off the eco mode regardless of the equipment being used.

Well I don't use the "learning" capabilities anyway--those are turned off and I never use Eco-Mode. And so my "thinking" was that the "learning" capabilities of the thermostat I have are what's going to interfere with the algorithms in the Bosch.

mike_home the Bosch Thermostat model is BCC100

The Bosch BCC100 appears to be a generic thermostat made in China. You can buy it on Amazon for $156 and it competes with other thermostats at this price point. I don't see anything unique about to enable it to make better control decisions with your America Standard modular blower and Bosch condenser.

In my opinion, the Bosch condenser will operate in the manner how the installer set it up. There are DIP switch inside the condenser which selects the algorithm it will use. Turning off the learning and eco mode capability turns the Nest into a simple on off switch. I think that is the best way to set up any thermostat.

The recommendation to not use the nest with Bosch Inverter comes from Bosch. They don't say just disable this or that, they say not to use it with their Inverter.

I'm pretty sure Bosch doesn't care how many nests have been sold. Nor do they care what some home owner in New Jersey thinks.

Americans buy more garbage... the HVAC gadget market is a multi billion a year industry 99% of it is garbage.

My mother gave me some wise advice over 40 years ago... "Ray, just because the world is jumping off a cliff --- doesn't mean you need to follow them."

Another version of this: A bug flying towards a bug zapper.... oh my look at all the casualties of those before me --- but the light is so BEAUTIFUL --- this time it will be DIFFERENT! ZAP!

This isn't just a matter of hooking the nest up and seeing that the unit starts and runs. It will do that, plenty of people who think they know something by posting videos on youtube showing that. It doesn't mean it will work under all conditions the Bosch inverter operates.

I will trust the manfacturer of the product long before I trust the sales figures of some random thermostat.

Well I'm offended and I'm gonna use the Nest anyway. LOL. Makes complete sense, to put a 28 year HVAC career up against sales figures and random videos saying see it works... I know it's going to lead to yet another --- it can't be the nest trouble shooting session. How many times in Monopoly going around that board does it take for you to become a pro at it?

A broken record? A broken clock? The warranty of the nest last time I checked is two years. That warranty doesn't cover anything you call me to do for you.

Even Google knows it's going to break. An el cheapo thermostat comes with 5 year part warranty. No muss no fuss. (*professionally installed)

Most common problems / but not all problems...click to enlarge

Chris Mulder,

I suggest you first verify the Bosch heat pump is working properly with the 2-speed American Standard modular blower. You should hear and feel the two speed of the blower. I don't own a Bosch inverter heat pump so I can't advise you how to tell if it is modulating properly. The current system with the Bosch thermostat will be your baseline performance for comparison if you choose to use another thermostat.

I suggest you call or email Bosch Customer Support. Tell them you are not happy with the Bosch BCC100 thermostat and you want to know what other thermostats are compatible with your equipment. Ask about the Nest Generation 3. If it is not recommended ask specifically the technical reasons. You can mention your plan to turn off all the learning features. If you get any information please post it.

Hi all PRO! I’ll try to make it more complicated!
I’m basically sold on new Bosch inverter condenser / variable speed motor air handler for my house in south Florida. I read a lot of reviews and I think, for the price It’s the best system on the market today!
My question:
right now I have Glass thermostat by Johnson Control and I’m very happy with it! Will it work with my new Bosch A/C system? Or I’ll have the same problems as a Nest thermostat. Thanks!

Bosch advertises their heat pump can use non-Bosch thermostats. I am not familiar with the Glas thermostat, but I have not found a reason why it should not. You can verify this with Bosch technical support. I believe you will get the best efficiency if you set the thermostat to one cycle per hour. Your thermostat is probably set to run several cycles per hour. Check that setting when you do the installation.

@Jacob Kosov: "right now I have Glass thermostat by Johnson Control and I’m very happy with it! Will it work with my new Bosch A/C system?"

• The Glas thermostat specs show support for "Heat pump, up to 2H/2C/2 Aux Heat"
• The Bosch brochure shows the Bosch BCC100 thermostat which supports "Up To 4-Heat & 2-Cool".
• The Bosch BVA 15 wiring diagram (page 11) shows it only needs a 3H/1C thermostat so, as I read it, the Glas should work okay.

-- amateur

My question:
right now I have Glass thermostat by Johnson Control.

The Glas Thermostat by Johnson Control has been discontinued.

For that reason, the first blip of trouble any trouble I think I would probably replace it.

One cycle per hour doesn't do anything if the thermostat is cutting out for "ANY" reason. Reread those 12 common problems of the nest? ha ha.

Once that signal is gone, the Bosch has to start over again. That leads to discomfort.

That discomfort leads to "It can't be the nest (or dumb thermostat of the month) because the unit is coming on." (amateur hour(s)) --- time you aren't getting back.

Hey give the nest a break man, we're only on Generation 3. LOL.

This discussion has digressed into the Nest generation 3 is not reliable and the Johnson Controls Glas thermostat has been discontinued. If you already own these thermostats and like them then you can use them with a Bosch inverter heat pump. If you don't own these thermostats then you can select another thermostat that may be more reliable and has ongoing software support. In all cases the most important item is proper installation. That includes the selection of the internal DIP switches inside the Bosch inverter and the cycles per hour of the thermostat.

If you're a homeowner and you own a Bosch and you're poking around inside the control panel -- that might be the last thing you ever do.

These units convert AC incoming power to 3 phase DC power. Touch it just right and that's all she wrote for you. (if it grabs you, it isn't going to let go. The lights in the neighborhood may dim and flicker your lights will go out.) The warning stickers on the exterior to that panel are there for very important reasons -- Ignore them and we'll be culling the herd.

This is why you don't listen to home owners who only "think" they know something.

Cycles per hour doesn't do anything in and of itself in regards to the Bosch Inverter.

These units convert AC incoming power to 3 phase DC power.

This is the reason you don't listen to HVAC repairman who "think" they know something about AC to DC conversion.

👍

Yeah sure don't listen to me. I don't know anything... ha ha it is to laugh.

Will you listen to the manufacturer... probably not - you two know too much to be told anything.

The manufacturer sticks stickers all over these units warning of dangers... but we get homeowners in here with nothing better to do. We can't be troubled with reading stuff. -- That is the number one reason you should call a pro.

click to enlarge 380 volts DC

oops...

These units were not intended for the untrained to work on them.

Really no air conditioner is intended to be worked on by the untrained. That is why they have licensing rules in nearly every jurisdiction. If only that were the same on the internet.

HVAC is a multi billion a year industry. Better make sure the opinion you're listening to knows what they are talking about.

No where in my posts did I suggest a homeowner remove the panels on his Bosch inverter heat pump and touch the internal wiring while it is still energized. I did say the installer needs to properly change the settings at the time of installation. Getting a shock from 380 V DC would not be pleasant.

Can you provide an explanation how the Bosch inverter heat pump converts AC incoming power to 3 phase 380 V DC power? I am not trained in this area so I am looking forward to your explanation.

No where in my posts did I suggest a homeowner remove the panels on his Bosch inverter heat pump.

You don't even remember what you said... you can't be bothered to re-read what you wrote?

click to enlarge

Can you provide an explanation how the Bosch inverter heat pump converts AC incoming power to 3 phase 380 V DC power? I am not trained in this area so I am looking forward to your explanation.

This is what they make Trade Schools for. A place to learn HVAC is not the internet of things or the gumball machine as you leave the grocery store.

I am a service provider. I am here to do it for you, not teach you how.

Under no circumstance should a home owner, friend or foe attempt to work on an AC inverter without proper training. Death is almost a certainty.

Don't forget to pull the disconnect when you are measuring the 3 phases on the 380 V DC power. We don't want to see you get hurt.

Wow, this is a fascinating thread! I am currently in the process of converting oil powered heat to a BOSCH heat pump system for AC + heat and learned a lot.

The installer included the cost of Nest or Ecobee in the estimate and i was tending towards Nest (Already invested in the ecosystem_ but this thread is making me rethink that!

Had a question; would it be fine if I use a regular Nest thermostat (NO learning feature)? The goal is auto turn off when I am away and a (known) control interface.

Oh, the system is the Bosch IDS 2.0 BOVA 5 Ton 20 SEER heat pump with BVA-60WN1-M20 Air Handler. Three zones.

If you were to purchase a Nest learning thermostat I believe you can disable the learning features. You can remotely adjust your thermostat when you are away. I would not rely on the thermostat to do this.

I predict you will be getting many long responses on this topic. For that reason I suggest you start a new posting.

Actually thinking of buying the regualr nest without kearning features. fbat should be good enough?

On new post; apologies. since there was so much of overlap i thought i could recycle.

@Argus 019: "The goal is auto turn off when I am away and a (known) control interface."

"Nest thermostat compatibility"

"Zoned system compatibility with Nest thermostats"

(I have the Honeywell T10 Pro thermostat (specs) which has proven very reliable, its wi-fi successfully recovering after power shutoffs and wi-fi router reboots. I assume only one thermostat would require wi-fi access (to remotely turn the system on and off) so it could be combined with non-wifi models such as the Honeywell T4 for the remaining zones.

-- amateur)

I dont know, would love to stick with NEST. I think the option of using a regular nest thermostat (Not learning) seems to be the best course?

They seem to have damper controls but Would it be able to control multistage HVAC systems like the BOSCH IDS though?

@Argus 019: "Would it be able to control multistage HVAC systems like the BOSCH IDS though?"

See Installation and Operation Manual:

• Section 10.3 for thermostat wiring
• Section 6 for blower settings

Old thread but still relevant for Bosch IDS buyers. I have a 5 Ton BOVA with the IDS BVA air handler and don't like the BCC100 T-stat the system comes with. It's a fine thermostat, but lacks remote pendants to trigger are circulation and subsequent heating/cooling as required. These alternative remotes are GREAT at keeping a home balanced and comfortable and IMO way better than any predetermined fan schedule of the BCC100, which beats having an old basic thermostat. Examples: in the summer nights where the center of the house stays relatively cool, yet the bedroom with two people and 2 large dogs gets warm and stuffy. Or in the winter when we have a fireplace going and the Tstat provides less heating, so the bedroom gets chilly. The Ecobee and Nest TStats with pendents sense that issue and balance the air very nicely.

From the Bosch website, download the IDS installer manual (Example link), and read the following:

15.1 Control Logic Description

- The variable speed system adopts the same 24VAC control as any conventional heat pump.

- The compressor’s speed is controlled based on coil pressures monitored by the unit's pressure transducer. To ensure stable and adequate capacity, the compressor speed will modulate relative to evaporator pressure during cooling operation and relative to condensing pressure during heating operation. The target pressure can automatically adjust based on compressor operation so optimal capacity can be achieved.

Based on Bosch literature, I believe the Bosch BCC100 does not drive any advanced air handler or inverter functions other than standard controller logic and owners can use commercial TStats without any reduced performance. We can certainly discuss the logic of commercial TStats turning the equipment on and off, but generally, I don't believe they inherently impact inverter speeds or efficiency. We could also discuss the merits of reliability, features, being trendy or whatever, but that ultimately comes down to consumer choice, including application specific considerations.

Regarding what the manufacturers recommend... First, Bosch writes that the inverter works off of normal 24 VDC TStat signals, there is no proprietary communication here. Second, they might recommend you use a Bosh TStat. Sure, they invest a lot to develop, manufacture and market their products, but I can run a Bosch circular saw with a Red Devil blade very safely and efficiently too! Same can be said about buying car parts from dealerships, sometimes I do, but there are plenty of OEM quality parts for less money and better warranties at other retailers. It's up to the consumers to pick what's best for them, right?

I'm not an installer, just a DIYer that researches...

Please comment if you read the Bosch statements differently than I do, or come to different conclusions. I'm interested in remote TStat pendants, an HVAC that runs efficiently and the best comfort for my family/situation.

Respectfully,

15.1 Control Logic Description

- The variable speed system adopts the same 24VAC control as any conventional heat pump.

- The compressor’s speed is controlled based on coil pressures monitored by the unit's pressure transducer. To ensure stable and adequate capacity, the compressor speed will modulate relative to evaporator pressure during cooling operation and relative to condensing pressure during heating operation. The target pressure can automatically adjust based on compressor operation so optimal capacity can be achieved.

---------------

It's in there that the compressor speed will modulate relative to evaporator pressure. (doesn't use a thermostat's direction to do this -- can't do this if it's continually cycled off.)

In order for the compressor to modulate it must be running, have been running, continue to run so that it doesn't lose it's spot.

When the compressor shuts off -- what happens to evaporator pressure?

It's not saying you can't use the nest, but to do so isn't a good idea.

If the unit is trecking along at 40 hertz for a long while matching the load, the nest thinks it knows better and shuts off for whatever reason. Once the Bosch starts again it's going to start around 15 to 20 hertz it's going to take time to get back to its former spot. (designed to run, not manipulated by a thermostat that thinks it knows better. -- that comment will probably trigger nest fanboi's -- not here to say things you like to hear... tell it like I see it / how I see it in person.)

I can only guess that this is likely the reason. Bosch is tight lipped as to why it's not a good idea to use so called 'smart' thermostat with their unit. They just merely say it's not recommended. They know it's not going to hurt it... the machine is well protected.

Nests are known for causing trouble. The more weird problems are Nest related in some fashion probably close to 'almost always' in my experience.

I've ran calls in which people swear up and down that the Nest is working fine... only to find out in person -- It's the problem. That's in addition to it thinking it knows what's better way to run your AC and in some cases furnace. I've seen trouble on both sides of the equation -- AC and Heating.

DIY and Bosch do not go well together.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Nest will work fine. Take a look at the BCC100 and see what a piece of junk it is.

Bosch clearly shows why Nest is not a good answer in this training video online

Apparently it cuts off mid cycle and the Bosch systems winds up restarting again. see https://youtu.be/29W-EdCd0zE?si=v9kfqeVxp5OkEClO&t=552 

Thanks for this thread. In the process of making this exact decision. My contractor has spec’d a basic Honeywell stat (which I’ve never liked and which does not integrate with my home automation system) so am looking for another solution that at the minimum has a good app that allows remote monitoring and control of the system. I also definitely need one that allows me to set t strip cut in temperature as I only want to use it for defrost cycles.

Any recommendations?

@Ted Inoue: "I also definitely need one that allows me to set t strip cut in temperature as I only want to use it for defrost cycles."

Huh?

Sorry, when I was editing, the editor kept screwing up what I was entering so I couldn't properly see what was typed.

What I meant was that I need a thermostat that lets me set the temperature at which backup heat strip is used. I want to set it so that the electric heat strips only activate for defrost cycles.

Too many system are configured to use electric heat strips at 35F. With modern heat pumps (multi-stage or inverter), this can be horribly wasteful as they may be able to supply all the necessary heat far below that point.