You need to have a face to face meeting with your builder immediately. Keep emotion out of it and just use facts/data.

We moved into a cost plus custom build in January. Our builder was pretty open book with us and we saw his pricing for most items. Some vendors did check in with him first to make sure they could show us his invoice, but once they got the ok the vendors were transparent with us too.

Don't forget that builders also have projects that are fixed price, although most builders aren't doing them in the current business/RE market, and those clients would not see the builder's invoice. Don't be mad at the vendors, as they have no clue what type of contract you have with the builder.

How much research did you do on the builder? Did you talk to references?

You are not the stone fabricator’s customer. The builder is. Of course they are not going to give you proprietary business information without express permission. It would be like asking Wendy’s for the price of the beef and what they pay the cook per hour, rather than asking Uber Eats what the price of the hamburger is delivered to your door.

@User Interesting point. But let's really take that to the level that this is now. Wendy's hands you a menu with just pictures and you have 10.00 in your wallet. You have to have a meal, any kind of meal. So you pick one you like the looks of. Great, got your order in right? Ok, now Uber Eats delivers my food and they want 45.00. Well, damn, if I had known that, I would have ordered something else.

In reality, Uber Eats does show you the price and you can adjust your order to account for the "fees" and the markup so that you are in any way prepared.

The fabricator is in a tough spot here. Verbo is correct; you aren't his customer. Figure it out with the builder please.

I agree with the other comments that you simply need to communicate to the builder that you are unable to ascertain prices with the fabricator. Add that in order for you to proceed with choosing a stone within the stated allowance, you need the builder to tell the fabricator to tell you which stones are within that allowance.

You need to get control of your tone. The outrage and dripping contempt are inappropriate and not at the level of maturity needed to deal with the challenges of building a home. There will be more frustrations to come, so get a grip on your emotions.

The countertop business is one of the strangest we've encountered (see what I did there?) in our entire build.

Like you, we had a budget. However, when we went to pick out slabs, their pricing is only available to the fabricator. Like you, we kept asking how do we know if what we picked is in our allowance? WHEN do we get to know? We hated that the answer seemed to be, "pick out a few you like and then we'll get a quote from the fabricator." We had them give us quotes for 5 different slabs, because we looked at two different stone yards with different price structures.

When I went with someone when they were picking out countertops in this situation, the builder said "You can go to this yard and this yard" and at the yard they said "You are allowed to pick from these granites, here"., or anything with (some letter up to D or something), nothing higher. The countertop place is really working with the builder, not you, but the countertop place should have an idea, from the builder, about what you are limited to in your choices.

It is standard business practice worldwide to not reveal a confidential business cost to someone who is not not a direct party to that transaction. Would you want your employer revealing the amount of your quarterly bonus to your contractor, just because they wanted to make sure that you could really afford the renovation?

It depends. In our cost plus contract we saw every single bill from every single contractor so yes we were told what the costs were because they aren’t/weren’t hidden. Isn’t the point of cost plus entirely that there is transparency? You know exactly what the cost is, what the mark up is, and can make adjustments if you want to find something different? I disagree with all the comments about not sharing pricing. I would never want to be in a contract with someone who wasn’t transparent.

I don't understand how your builder is working.

When I remodeled I had some line items that were allowances and some that I chose and there was then an agreed upon contractual markup.

I was given the pricing for everything because otherwise how would I have known whether I was within the allowance or whether the price that was being marked up was actually the cost charged.

This isn't proprietary secret information if it is a cost plus; a markup up.

Other items on my remodel were just flat line items and obviously I didn't investigate what the cost was for the materials used to construct stuff - rough plumbing; dry wall etc.

I would speak to your builder and tell him that you are finding it unproductive to go to a stone yard (or anywhere else) and not have any idea of whether you are within your allowance and/or how much over you will be.

That is exactly how it can work ... if the builder tells the fabricator, or any other vendor, to share the information with his cost plus client.

If the builder with a cost plus contract is not being transparent then you have to wonder why? For all we know he included a low markup to get the business, but then marks up every bid, a bit extra, to increase his profit. Only way to find out is if OP talks to the builder. Might also be a good idea to go back to any references and ask about this particular part of their builds. What invoices/bids did the builder share with them?

As a subcontractor with a relationship with a builder, I do not want to deal with the homeowner on any financial anything. It is why I work with GC’s and not homeowners. Them butting in between us is just going to cause my blood pressure and my quote to rise. I give my info to the GC to communicate and and no one else. I do not work for the homeowner. I work for the GC.

If you walk into any granite yard, you'll find the same thing. Go to the big ones -- MSI and Stone Collection and ask them the price on any of their slabs. They absolutely will not tell you a price. It HAS to go through a fabricator. It was one of the most frustrating experiences. We were making a 7-hour drive, each way, to pick slabs and needed to know what "grade" was in our budget. After many emails back and forth between us, our builder and the fabricator, we got an approximate quote for Grade 3 and Grade 5 and could figure out if we wanted to go over or under from there. But apparently, that's not how the big granite suppliers like to work.

Think of it like this. The stone yard is the wholesaler. The GC is the store where you buy your stone from.

@rehb I ran into the same problem when I ordered countertops, and posted about it here but can't find it (and Verbo made a similar inaccurate comparison, but used ordering eggplant parmesan from a restaurant as an example 🙄). We purchased countertops through our cabinet maker, who had a quartz fabricator he worked with who used Daltile ONE and "usually charged $X per slab" for the slab, fabrication, and install. No price group was given for what he "usually" charges but we knew other homeowners who had used this fabricator and were happy with his work. I went to the showroom and chose a couple of slabs that I liked that were in different price groups. I asked my cabinet maker what the difference in price would be if I ordered a slab in price group 5 as opposed to price group 3 or 4? I was told that the fabricator wouldn't tell me the price until AFTER I ordered. What?? So...I had to order my slabs before they would tell me what my price difference would be when the fabricator "usually charges $X per slab"?? It made no sense. Was what the fabricator "usually charges" from price group 3, 4, or 5? What if price group 5 was out of my budget? I wasn't asking to know the price the fabricator got the slab for, or any trade secrets, I was asking to know what MY price would be - what the fabricator would be charging ME - for the slab I was choosing. I ended up ordering from price group 4 and what do you know, it was higher than what the fabricator "usually" charges. Why couldn't I know what my price would be BEFORE ordering? Definitely shady business.

Make a list of your top 6-8 counter top choices (from the recommended yard) and get a quote on all of them. Once you know which type/color is in your budget, go back and select the exact slab that you want fabricated. Then follow up that seam placement etc is communicated and approved by you before cutting. You will not get your way in any other way. I'm married to a GC, we used his guy who has done counters for him for years...and we still had to do it this way. We never found out the exact $$$ of a slab, only the end result cost. We paid more because of how difficult our particular stone was to fabricate, so the slab price alone wouldn't have given us enough info. Some anger/frusteration during construction is normal, but unrealistic expectations create a miserable experience for everyone.

Call and ask the builder for clarification.

Most fabricators don't price at "$$ per foot" but by the job. Most won't preprice with a menu. Big box stores that do that can with large margins.

The fabricator will take your selection of slabs x number of slabs x cost per slab and then measure your project (on paper) and THEN figure out the cost to fabricate and install, then add it all up and send to the builder for approval prior to starting a job.

$$ per foot makes people comfortable, but really only good to determine an over all budget.

Sit down with the builder and ask what level of material its likely to cover. My guess is $55 psf covers a baseline material including the cost of install.

And unless people have lived and shopped for slabs in different states they should not be making generalizations about slab shopping. In Los Angeles slab yards have no problem giving slab prices to retail customers. Fabricators charge for the actual labor of fabricating and don't seem to want to be in the slab reselling business. I bought around 10+ slabs over 10 years of remodeling/enlarging a house in that area and paid for them with my credit card!

Built a house in FL and the slab yard shared the quote as soon as my builder told them to do so, with our cost plus contract.

The builder is the customer. He will get pricing from the fabricator.

Please be sure you approve the template! Get it in writing that you have approval prior to install. This is very important to avoid possible disappointment in the future.

Which stone did you select?

Chispa -- good point. I had experience in Florida, Colorado and New Mexico where they wouldn't give prices directly to me, only telling me "grades", but other states/areas might be more transparent. It was amazingly frustrating to me -- I couldn't even get a delta between grades, so just picked out a few ones in different groups to get more accurate quotes. Wasted a lot of time for everyone, but that was the way it was. (Although I was shopping in other states, fabricator was in Colorado.)

If feels like this is an area that is really ripe for disruption. Wherever there is a lack of transparency in pricing - eventually someone comes in and opens the kimono and gives folks what they are asking for....

Look at folks like GoodRx or Mark Cuban Drugs, etc- in the latter - it's 'we buy, mark up a little and sell to you - cheap without the insuance insanity. The countertop space is just waiting for some innovation

You are not buying a commodity. You are buying a service. Even if soneone will sell you the gallon of milk, and compete to do it, it it still has to be made into the cheese for your pizza. You might DIYsome cheese making, but you’re not going to buy a 1M water jet to do your stone tops.

This was my response when I tried to get prices at one stone yard: Dear customer we do not have pricing for individual home owners , however you can visit our showroom to personally view and make selection and contact your dealer for pricing information .

I understand that the builder is the "customer". I'm not asking to know how much markup or what his profits are. I do not care ..at..all. All I wanna know is am I picking something within budget or have I just spent enough money to purchase a car on my choice before getting started. I DO understand that the slab is only part of the cost. I'm not an idiot. You guys aren't seeing things from the perspective of the home buyer. Which leads me to believe, the majority of those who are chiming in here on this thread are "in the industry" of building or countertops. You can explain all day long to me that I'm not the fabricator's customer and that my builder is. I already knew that. But to be all pinned up on the topic of price is insane. I'm not even wanting to know exact numbers. I'm just wanted someone to drop a clue before we get hit with some crazy 40k countertop invoice. Most people like to give permission before they get ****ed. :D

Obviously it can be done without screwing over the people who sell stone

In California you go to the stone yard and look at slabs and they tell you the price and you purchase the slabs you like. The fabricator or the GC then arranges for it to be picked up, fabricated and installed. It works fine and seamlessly and seems very efficient.

I am not understanding hiw this wouldn’t work especially with a cost plus contract since the consumer wouid have the right to know what the cost is so they know whether there is a plus and how much that plus is.

I don’t understand why the price of a slab would be a mystery anymore than the price of wood for a floor. No one is trying to learn any trade secrets or quibble over the cost of a nail

secrets probably is not the right characterization. stoneyard knows you are the end customer. but there are variables occurring as they get the materials from different places....differing qualities...different trends come into play...they have costs that get affected by various things before the piece is even on display. It probably is to the homeowner's benefit that the process is streamlined./"bundled" .... use their expertise and knowledge to pick the best piece that can be fabricated for the best result in your configuration....and many people have a void about all that and have probs w the end result..... there is a granite shop here owned by a family and every so often I go in to just see whats the inventory and appreciate they can describe the availabiity/ characteristics...workability and durability of each . focus on that. go back with a different frame of mind with a focus on your plan. what about if you llook at their mid price point offers and simply ask how much difference if you go up or down a notch. edge yourself closer to getting a choice made so you can move on.

What makes it even more frustrating is that even across stone yards, their "level 3/group 3/whatever 3" aren't consistent. As mentioned, we went to two different stone suppliers and picked out the same granite from each to put on our list to get quotes from. The same stone was $3,000 more from one supplier to the next. As a customer, it was incredibly frustrating.

To echo Chispa - I don't think these practices in particular are constant across the US. Counter tops are challenging with stoneyard and fabricators both quite expensive and, in my area, generally independent.

So use the analogy above, the stoneyard is the wholesaler and the fabricator is the store. The GC should not be the store in a cost plus situation.

OP - you have given us no time line here. Did you go to the yard this week and are frustrated you don't have a price? Have you been templated yet?

For me - I was on the edge between needing 3 slabs or 4 (maybe 2 vs 3) so it was a huge variable. Sometimes after doing the math, the fabricators can get creative. I had a small amount extra so have some very nice "kitchen level" quartz in my closet (for small money). But that stuff can't be determined before templating.

Mark Cuban has no shot here - shipping slabs in expensive and fabricators have variable skills. There are pre-made slabs from China but you have to design your space around them. Given the cost differential, it might be the way to go for many.

I found the cheapest option was a fabricator that had his own slabs. Not the best and not the largest selection, but he could control the whole process. Used for a rental house.

I visited a stone yard. If I could pick up the slabs the example was $11/sqft. If not, I would have to get pricing from a fabricator.

I ran into this with Quartz. The fabricator worked with the custom cabinet maker, and while I did get the quote as part of my contract with my builder, it had to go through my builder, to the cabinet maker and then to the fabricator. I was told to pick a Cambria pattern as that was the brand the fabricator, who dealt with the cabinet maker, worked with. Very convoluted.

When I went to purchase marble radiator caps for my aunt I was told the price would depend on how much of the remnant slab I used. The more I used the higher the discount. I held my breath while they calculated the cost.

When I purchased my own radiator caps in Fantasy Brown I negotiated $70/sf, the soapstone cap for the kitchen was non-negotiable at $75 a sf. Each stone yard was different, even when pricing remnant pieces.

Nothing to add to your experience, but am fascinated by the responses on here. And these are the exact same posters who, when a homeowner posts on this forum with a countertop install issue, they immediately place the blame on the homeowner because they didn't insert themselves into the process enough, and what do they expect by deferring to their GC or designer, and homeowners can't take anything for granted and have to own every single step of the process.

This regular posters on GW are becoming so predictable and "angry internet basement troll-y" to almost make this forum unuseable. It is a really shame because it used to be so very helpful. Now it is just a "blame the homeowner and insult their design decisions" fest.

We built a house with a cost plus contract and our builder gave us an invoice for everything before he bought it or supplied it. With stone it's tricky because you can't price it yourself, however, you can get an idea from the builder what category of stone fits within the allowance. Ask him what level of stone fits the budget. He should not be ordering or fabricating without giving you a firm price.

@H202 - the OP has been given advice repeatedly to simply talk with the builder. It's straightforward simple advice. She has not responded to that with even one word. As I said earlier, the outrage and contempt have no place in her dealings with the builder. It will get her nowhere and escalate issues and set a pattern for future interactions with the builder. Since she has a long way to go before the home is finished, it behooves her not to use the tone she has been though she has not spoken with the builder.

"You guys aren't seeing things from the perspective of the home buyer. Which leads me to believe, the majority of those who are chiming in here on this thread are "in the industry" of building or countertops."

You are so intent on your anger at this process that you won't hear what people are saying. Most of the advice on this thread has been from homeowners. My 19-year-old is more open-minded and less reactive than you.

OP, people understand your frustration, but they are explaining the reason why the fabricator is not giving you the cost. Nobody is saying you are wrong or at fault. The problem really is your builder and not the fabricator.

A different approach may help. Tell the builder you want to stay within the budget and would like to know which "level" corresponds with your budget. Go back to the yard and explain, I would like to see "level" X slabs. Also, some may charge additional for edges, cutouts, etc. Ask your builder what edge is included in your allowance. I hope that helps. I had the same thing with a new build years ago.

Again, please be sure to approve the template prior to install. Very important.

One way the OP can "pre shop" their budget is to visit Home Depot or Lowes where slab work is listed on a per foot basis - consumer friendly but the consumer typically pays a premium for this

Note that engineered quartz starts at 23.5% higher than granite ($63 vs $51), that the high end is over double.

These are installed prices:

There is no set ratio of materials vs fabrication & install. Granite slabs can be purchased starting in the $15 psf range with fabrication costing much more and figured w a combo of $ SPF plus edge per lineal foot plus undermounted sinks etc. Quartzite fab costs are upwards of 50% more.

As almost always on this forum the issue boils down to communication failures.

To the OP - I understand your frustration. I am not in the stoner industry, and am wrapping up a kitchen remodel and just went through the same exercise. Adding to an analogy used above - asking a stone yard the price of a slab - is irrelevant. It’s like asking a rancher what how much a head of steer is when you want a Wendy’s burger. Let me try to explain. Unless you are templating, fabricating, and installing the counters yourself, the price of the slab doesn’t matter. What matters to you is the price of your counters, in your kitchen. Let’s say, for example, you have narrowed down your selection to a choice in price level two and and selection in price level three. The price level three stone is also slightly larger than the price level two stone. So your (your contractors) fabricator templates and concludes that one slab of the pg3 stone will do your job, but will require two slabs of the pg2 stone. In that case, the pg2 stone, when all is said and done, likely will be more expensive than the pg3 stone, because the fabricator needs to order an entire second slab to use, maybe, 10% of it. That’s just an example of one aspect in fabrication that makes pricing complicated. Ask yourself - if the stone yard did give you a price - ‘that slab is $45/sf as is’. How will that information help inform your decision? I’m not asking for an answer/not trying to challenge you. Just something to think about.

One simple way to get pricing is select 3 or 4 options you like and then get pricing from your builder. Go from there. The only way you’re going to get d**ked in this situation is if you make a final decision before you know pricing.

I think people are comparing apples to oranges.

If you are buying the slab THROUGH the fabricator, then the cost of the slab is irrelevant since it is the final price.

In many locations, the home owner buys the slab and hires an independent third party fabricator to install. Obviously the installer might not be able to give a final installation price unless he knows what slab is selected; what the layout is and other factors.

This is no different than any other item - you buy tiles and the tile installer can't give a price unless they are given the design AND the tile selected since those would impact cost of the installation. I am trying not to complicate it since there can be issues in terms of *responsibility* when a home owner purchases inferior tiles but let us assume that the tile is of a high quality.

I am not understanding how one can have a "cost plus" contract and not be given invoices. When I did a gut remodel my invoicing was transparent including furniture and other items ordered through my decorator. How else does a designer charge their markup unless the homeowner knows what the decorator's trade cost is?

I ordered quote an expensive custom rug using the services of my designer and as with other items ordered, my final cost was the charge plus her design fee. I guess there are some "shady" businesses because the rug store wanted to know whether I would be receiving a copy of the invoice - i.e. cost of the rug they were charging and my designer said of course I would since she had nothing to hide and I had the right to view invoices to determine that the calculations based on her designer markup were correct.

"...Is this normal?"

Very little is "normal" compared with historical practices. For years, the majority of custom homes in our market were constructed on a fixed-contract-price basis. Based on price volatility, we are transitioning to all cost-plus. During the transition, suppliers and builders are both adjusting to different business practices. A supplier sharing cost information with a builder's clients in the past may not have been the norm, and some builders may have applied a mark-up to client selections. The transition to cost-plus arrangements should be changing that. Cost-plus should provide full visibility of all costs to the client.

I would be so frustrated. I had no idea how lucky we were. We went to a stone yard, picked 4-5 of our favorites, and were given a price per slab for each of those with photos/descriptions of the material. Then we had a fabricator come to the house and give us a quote to install the preferred slab. We were happy with the quote (we actually got three), so we called the stone yard and told them where to deliver the slabs. It all made perfect sense to me. The fabricator did say that he can get a deal on the slab pricing since they’re obviously a regular customer, but when we told him what we paid he said we did great.

@jaja06 - was your experience during a new home build where there was a countertop allowance, or was this a renovation of a kitchen you were doing for your existing house?

I live in the Philadephia suburbs and you cannot buy stone from a distributor unless you have a business account with them but they will let you come buy and look at their slabs. I don't know if you can buy a slab from a retail stone yard/fabricator.

@rehb said, "I understand that the builder is the "customer". I'm not asking to know how much markup or what his profits are. I do not care ..at..all."

Oddly enough, this is exactly what you are entitled to. In contract law some words have a specific and constrained meaning... Cost is one of those words. Cost means the actual consideration surrendered after all rebates and discounts.

In a cost plus contract, the builder is legally obligated to make his final cost after all rebates available to you in a timely manner. Additionally, the only amounts that can be passed on to you as cost are what he actually paid net of any rebates. All markups and profits must be stated in the contract as the "plus" portion of cost plus. These can be referred to in several ways, such as builder's percentage, markup on cost, overhead and profit, etc., they can also be a set dollar amount or more commonly a percentage.

Cost plus contracts usually represent a fiduciary duty, this is different than a fixed cost contract where the builder's profit is his/her business. So you are actually entitled to know exactly how much the builder paid for the countertop. Additionally, I believe every state has some statutory guidelines about what a builder must respond to and how long they have to respond. So to answer your question... Yes, if you have a cost plus contract the builder is legally obligated to tell you exactly what he paid for the counters. Generally, the contractor must also provide an estimate prior to obligating the homeowner if asked.

Anyone who is being paid by the builder doesn't have to respond. They are not aware of the terms the builder has with you (fixed cost or cost plus) and so they might be reluctant to speak to you about costs.

Good luck

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I suspect a fair number of contractors are mistaken about what they must pass along as cost and several of them may add a markup even though they are not allowed to. Whether you want to fight that battle is up to you. Remember that building a house is a cooperative effort and many times you can get a better result by not poking your contractor with a stick.

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ETA: While cost has a specific and constrained meaning, a contract could redefine cost to something else, such as MSRP (I suspect that is rare). However, the duty still exists and a contractor would still have to provide reasonable estimates when asked.

I think you should be able to get a couple of quotes if you know what want. My cabinet maker was nice enough to draw me out a template of the counter tops. We knew the 2 different quartz we were interested in. I called/ emailed a couple of fabricators and they gave me a price. My builder’s fabricator was about $25 sq ft higher in price so I used someone else.