Alfie - see! And look at the beautiful picture they show! Everyone should get this rose! :) :) :)

@seasiderooftop - in terms of this main thread topic which of those kordes roses you purchased from there would be at the top of your rose love list? I mean I love my DA roses but the health and prolific blooms of the Lion Fairytale is just stunning. It’s huge (6ft x 4ft) and of all the millions of leaves not a single one is diseased; the health is incredible. I would say from the three flushes I have had over 300 flowers this year. I hope other Kordes roses are like this.

Still have a good number of scattered blooms on this third flush even though it is getting cold here (6oC last night):

Alfie, that is a pretty incredible rose. I wonder about some of the other Fairy tale roses

Do they perform sd well with less height? I love the romantic look of your rose and she sounds super happy with her home.

Hi @Alfie (North London, UK)

Sorry I can offer no help in choosing Kordes roses. They have obviously created many fantastic roses but somehow they never ended up making the cut for me. My focus is on container friendly roses with strong fragrance that are as heat/wind/salt tolerant as possible to be happy in my zone 11 seaside garden. I admire Kordes for their pioneering work on disease resistance, and I am sure their roses will do great in your type of climate. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful!

Gorgeous blooms on your Lions Fairytale!

Alfie - Someone who really loves Kordes roses is Kitty from the Seasonal Thread. :) Your Lions Fairytale is really wonderful looking! I love, love that big bloom!

Thanks for the advice and lovely rose pictures. From this post I have found somewhere to get kordes roses and have been inspired by everyone’s stunning roses. I think I’m getting a C de P and a Dee-Lish to go with my kordes order after seeing these lovely roses from rosecanadian and Straw. My wife reminds me I need to consider if we have enough room for all the roses I want after this post was created 😂

Alfie, since when does having a bit of room stop us from getting more and more roses lol

My husband has given up , poor guy

LOL you two :) :)

Alfie - you're going to LOVE CdP!!! I'm jealous...I want one. :)

Yes my wife said to get two or three but I got carried away on that website @seasiderooftop suggested 😂:

They had your rose @rosecanadian 😁 A friend of mine has Dee-lish so I’m going to try a cutting for that. If there isn’t enough room they could make for good gifts! Except C de P that won’t be a gift 😂

Haha @Alfie (North London, UK)

That website is sooo dangerous, I always get carried away too! That looks like a great list ! I hope they will be fabulous in your garden.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, earlier this year I ordered what was sold as Ralph Moore's Baby Darling, my first miniature rose.

Not only was it not the real Baby Darling, but I discovered that I just don't like the micro-minis. Sure, they are a perfect size for containers but the flowers are just soooo tiny. No scent whatsoever and you need a microscope to really see the blooms. Here's "Not Baby Darling" next to a rose I love, Desdemona.

The blooms have that intense orange color only for a single day, and then they fade to this:

I just don't find anything enjoyable there. It doesn't "spark joy". I'll give it a couple of months while I wait for my bare-root arrivals, but highly likely this one is going to get thrown away to make room for a better rose.

Alfie - maybe I fly to your house and get a cutting. LOL Just kidding, obviously. :) :)

Seaside - I agree....that does nothing for me too. Whereas your Desdemona is soooo wonderful! :)

Yep, Seasider, that rose is just a place holder for a better rose. Im not wild about the micro minis either.

So now to plan your new rose.

I have a probably not Jolie Veranda that is either a total dud OR it isnt the right rose. Its in year 3 and I have yet to see an orange bloom! Last year a pale salmon and this year pink.

Looks like I need to try again

Kristine - yup, you need to try again. :)

Anyone recognise what type of rose I saw the other day on a walk? Blooms are quite small and the bush is quite high off the ground so it’s more like a small tree. It struck me because all the roses around have no blooms on them anymore but this was blooming prolifically.

No idea. But it is very pretty. :) Could you get a close up of the blooms?

@rosecanadian sorry didn’t see this. It was out on a long walk I spotted this. I will see if it is still in bloom next time we go. It was tall - almost like a small tree and I’ve never seen a rose that big before.

Chandos is putting out her last two blooms which, in this cold weather, are much more

pink.

@strawchicago z5 - have you got any pictures of your well being rose? Mine didn’t do well at all this year. Do you have any issues with discoloured foilage? When I got it I remember the man saying it is a ’very difficult rose to grow’. I remember you saying to put some lime in the soil to help with the scent but do you have any general tips for this rose? How do you rank it in terms of its scent compared to your other scented roses? Thanks

Alfie Well Being prefers a higher pH than Austins and Kordes roses. I mixed equal part dolomitic lime with alfalfa meal in the potting soil for its roots.

Prior to heavy rain, I topped it with 2 TBS alfalfa meal mixed with 2 TBS dolomitic lime (has 10% magnesium and 20% calcium). I use high potassium SOLUBLE fertilizer on Well-Being.

It did better in a fast-draining pot than in my rock-hard clay that retains acidic rain water too well. It gave 15+ buds in a dinky pot, but much less blooms in my heavy clay:

Below was when it was in a pot. Note much healthier leaves. Roses that prefer alkaline pH are best as own-root. Grafted-rootstock produces too much acid.

My Well-Being is own-root. Below pic. (loaded with buds) was taken 4 months (in Sept.) from a tiny band/rooting bought mid-May, and it was grown in a pot in its 1st year:

All of them (hate that is) at this moment in time.

rosaprimula, that's exactly what I was thinking before I read your post. I waited all summer for a good show and now that I'm getting some buds here comes the cold weather.

I hope we will love them again in Spring.

@strawchicago z5 your well beings look lovely especially the potted one! I bought my mine this year grafted in 3L pot from Harkness. Out of the ones I purchased this year it did the worst by far. It produced a few nice flowers in its 3L pot then for the rest of the summer in its new pot the buds were tiny and it didn’t flower again. This is it today:

Not sure if it’s established enough to take a cutting. Doesn’t look terrible but stems are very thin. I mixed perlite in when I potted it into a larger pot hoping to improve drainage but I did the opposite and stayed wet which is why it may have done badly.

Have you got any top tips for success with rose cuttings. I’ve tried 30 so far and only one was successful in terms of rooting. The leaves drop off (despite regular misting) or the stem goes black generally. I have just done a load more and a few that have new buds developing so hoping these will take:

@Alfie (North London, UK) I compiled all the rooting techniques in below post:

Rooting methods that work best for your soil and climate (houzz.com)

These are the out-of-patent roses I succeeded in rooting, ranking from easiest to root to hardest: Dee-lish (super easy), Golden Celebration, Carding Mill, Spirit of Freedom, Radio Times, Augusta Luis, Abraham Darby, Christopher Marlowe, The Dark Lady, Evelyn, The Squire, James Galway, W.S. 2000, Gertrude Jekyll, Mary Magdalene, Firefighter, Sonia Rykiel, Comte de Chambord is the hardest.

All the money I make in rooting I donate to charities. Instead of buying more roses to have them die through my zone 5a winter, I root roses to donate to charities. In the past 30 years, I lost at least $3,000 worth of roses through my harsh winter, so I lost my desire to buy more roses. It's more fun to root roses for others' happiness, rather than buying more roses out of discontentment.

Thanks for this Straw! What a wonderful thing to do donating the money off your own roots. Inspiring. I will have a thorough read of that info!

@strawchicago z5 - I found the rootings techniques link super useful thank you! Finally rooted my first cutting! Have no idea which one it is though 😆

You know those labels you get on plants which give you the 'size after 10 years', which we all ignore? Well, those years rolled around over a decade ago and even then, the size estimates were laughably inadequate. 20 years of stuffing bare-roots into a quarter acre of allotment has come to an appalling climax. I cut back from over 100 roses (and these are all big ramping wildlings), to around 60 or so but I need to lose around 2/3rds of the remainers as the whole plot is a rampant chaos and I cannot even burn the prunings anymore. Anyway, this has forced me to be a whole lot more thoughtful about which roses make the cut and which are destined for the chipper. So, out of a bed of 8 or so roses, I can only keep a couple...although I have decided to stick with the 2 largest, Jasmina and r.Californica since the lilac and cool pinks play well together...but I cannot bear to lose rosa glauca either. Claire Renaissance, Alissar, Princess of Phoenicia, Summer Song, Duc de Guiche and Cardinal Hume are toast.

This performance is being repeated all over the plot so miffy roses such as Jacqueline du Pre, and Falstaff, straggly, over large bushes which shatter (Pat Austin, Leontine Gervaise, Goldfinch) or gigantic monsters with horrendous thorns (Scharlachglut, Meg, Penelope, Moonlight), rust magnets(Madame Gregoire Staechelin, Schoener's nutkana), shaded -out strugglers (Sibelius, Matchball, Ghislaine de Feligonde), suckering nightmares (double white, Mary Queen of Scots) or just immense (R.helenae, Pleine de Grace, Rambling Rector) are all on the kill list. I can't decide whether this is a horrible nightmare or a thrilling opportunity for change and innovation. It does lead to a lot of argumentative internal dialogues though. And a thorough reappraisal of exactly which roses I could not live without.

I have taken cuttings of all of them so not really saying goodbye forever...just a hiatus to get a bit more perspective.

Alfie - your Chandos Beauty bloom has such a dark, beautiful color...a nice plus for cooler weather. :) Great job in rooting that rose! :)

Straw - trust your generous nature to do such a good deed for charity. Bless you! :) :)

Rosaprimula - I think that getting rid of roses that take away the joy of roses is a good thing. I love that you are thinking this through and doing soul searching about the process of rose growing. I'm sure that you'll be happier with less when they are doing so well. :)

Alfie Your rooting looks fantastic !! such a long and deep root, so it might be Dee-lish. Dee-lish never poke me since the thorns hook downward (like your pic). The thorns that point straight out like L.D. Braithwaite always hurt me the most. See below L.D. mean thorns:

rosaprimula what you wrote is immensely valuable, THANK YOU. Appreciate the info. you gave: "over large bushes which shatter (Pat Austin, Leontine Gervaise, Goldfinch) or gigantic monsters with horrendous thorns (Scharlachglut, Meg, Penelope, Moonlight), rust magnets(Madame Gregoire Staechelin, Schoener's nutkana), shaded -out strugglers (Sibelius, Matchball, Ghislaine de Feligonde), suckering nightmares (double white, Mary Queen of Scots) or just immense (R.helenae, Pleine de Grace, Rambling Rector) are all on the kill list."

From your list I love Pat Austin, but blooms shatter so I keep it in partial shade, only 4 hours of cool & early morning sun so it keeps its blooms longer. I killed suckering nightmare Le Rire Niais (Centifolia that suckers all over my lawn, plus once-bloomer.

Below Pat Austin doesn't occupy much space as 12th-year-own root (2' x 2' in my zone 5a), always healthy and blooms constantly in 3 to 4 hours of morning sun. Leaves are always glossy & healthy and it loves my dense & heavy alklaine clay. Color is intense orange, and it doesn't fade like Lady of Shalott or turns pink like Carding Mill with tons of acidic rain.

@strawchicago z5 - thanks! It was in a small pot so have put it in a larger pot (20cm across). Do I just carry on leaving it indoors and misting it regularly or can it go outside now in its pot now it has rooted?

It can't be Dee-Lish as I don't have that rose. I took cuttings from 9 roses as quite a few of mine were new this year so don't have enough growth for cuttings. I am almost certain it is either Graham T or Abe. Those Pat Austin blooms are gorgeous Straw! I'm quite fussy on bloom shapes but I love that frilly bloom shape.

I know your an expert on scented Austins and wanted your opinion on a few that are very popular currently in the UK which are Silas Marner, Eustacia Vye and The Country Parson. What are your thoughts on these scented roses? A lot of people are saying they offer the full package; good flowering, great health, take partial shade well and of course, strong fragrance.

@rosecanadian - yes that deep pink Chandos was a lovely end to the season :D

@Alfie (North London, UK) Take a look at posts by Hoang Ton. He grows Eustacia Vye and The Country Parson.

I have Eustacia Vye in a pot, with buds but they have not bloomed yet. The leaves are very thin and susceptible to mildew.

In taking care for tiny rooting: It depends on your weather. If your weather is rainy and above 50 F or 10 C, then bring it outside. Roots grow best at constant moisture and warm temp. above 10 C. If your weather outside is cold at 10 C or less, roots growth is best in warmer indoor.

Graham Thomas is the parent of tall roses like Dee-lish, Princess Charlenes de Monaco, Sweet Mademoliselle, and Moonlight Romantica .. these have DEEP and LONG roots.

Abe Darby roots easily but the roots are shorter and thicker than those with Graham Thomas as the parent.

@strawchicago z5 - thanks! How often would you feed a tiny root like this with your alfalfa tea + potash feed? I remember you saying recently you use this feed as they need it to establish good roots. Just wondering how often to do this and is this feed done before it roots, after, both?

Aw, thank you, Straw and rosecanadian,

I will put up the eventual murder list so I am amenable to being persuaded or at least, think again. There are a few obvious contenders to remain...and not always for obvious reasons. I loved Madame Gregoire Staechelin for many, many years but the terrible defacing rust cannot be overlooked any longer. She will remain in some form since she is a parent of 'Tolstoi', a marvellous setigera hybrid bred by Jan Bohm...which has all MGS wonderful attributes and good health and vigour. (and one of my keepers).

Another keeper - Darlows Enigma, cannot be had anywhere at all in the UK. Since Brexit, we do not have the option of ordering from Bierkreek so I need to keep this rose alive, if only to pass it along to my gardening friends (and it is also one of the easiest roses to propagate). Not strictly ethical but better than losing it altogether from these shores.). Not sure whether Dawn Crest is still available at Tuincentre Lottum (which will export to the UK) so may well have to hang onto that one too.

At one time, hulthemias were rare and precious so I kept a straggling and sickly Euphrates for years. Now they are two a penny, I can say goodbye to at least 3 of them: the already mentioned Euphrates, another Harkness rose and a Chris Warner one which is a sickly pink...and so it goes. I expect this list will change many times until I get to the final stage (of chopping them down and bribing the rufty-tufty offspring to get the picksaws and trenching spades out).

I have a bloody immense seed list though, having run amok through Jellito, Chiltern, Special Plants and Plantworld websites...even over the other side of the pond, with an order from Seedhunt.

@Alfie (North London, UK) If your potting soil has dolomitic lime added to neutralize the acidity of peatmoss, that will provide calcium for root growth. If your potting soil doesn't have dolomitic lime added, then it's good to TOP tiny rooting with potting soil mixed with 2 TBS. dolomitic lime to buffer acidic rain if brought outside.

It takes 2 TBS of dolomitic lime to lower the pH of acidic rain water by 2 points (from pH 5 to pH 7) per 12 inch. diameter pot.

Yes to watering with 2 TBS alfalfa meal with 1/4 TBS. of sulfate of potash per gallon of water (soaked overnight) for solid roots.

In hydroponics experiment with lettuce, the biggest root growth is with high calcium and high potassium.

Back in 2021 I used SOLUBLE fertilizer NPK 17-18-28 for 20+ roses in pots (some are tiny rootings) .. many blooms but root growth wasn't solid enough for zone 5a winter survival, it was salty potassium chloride plus potassium absorption was competed by high nitrogen and high phosphorus.

This year 2022 I use 2 TBS of alfalfa meal soaked with 1/4 to 1/2 TBS of sulfate of potash (3 times a week) per gallon of water, and roots are much thicker when transferred into my heavy clay.

@strawchicago z5 - thank you for this advice. When you soak the alfalfa meal do you strain it or just water them so the plant gets the the bits of alfalfa meal on them?

This DA YouTuber in the UK grows almost every variety of Austins. Interesting he puts Gabriel Oak, Mill on the Floss and Silas Marner as his current top 3 for all round performance. It’s all personal preference. Speaking to lots of people on here Munstead Wood seems to be near or at the top. I find it really interesting to see people’s opinion on Austins.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y0F4hgntLRk&t=834s

Alfie No need to strain the solids. The alfalfa bits help to feed the earthworms that I put into my pots. Earthworms till the soil and UP the aeration. Organic matter UP the variety of organisms in healthy soil.

From University of CA Agriculture website: " Healthy soil is loose, friable, and well-drained.

• Is approximately 45% minerals, 25% water, 25% air and 5% organic matter • Has good structure and texture, plenty of nutrients and a pH between 5.5 and 7.5 • Has large numbers and types of organisms."

Thanks Straw. Very useful info for soil composition! I have used some of your special alfalfa tea-potash feed on the cuttings. I dunked what I had left over on a potted minature dahlia that has only had a few flowers in bloom over the last month and it has gone nuts! Blooms are biggest they have been all summer.

Alfie Wow !! such big blooms and shiny & healthy leaves. Your dahlia has the best colors. I did the same with summer phlox, I threw red lava rock (high in potassium) on top and each bloom is larger in larger clusters, see below:

One time I got left-over sulfate of potash and SOLUBLE gypsum in a bottle, so I dumped it on a dandelion to see how much the root grows. A month later, I dug that dandelion up and the root became 3 prong fat tubers, rather than a skinny long tuber like others nearby.

Those phlox are stunning Straw! Your scientific approach and experimenting is to be marvelled at.

Is it okay to say that I categorically hate red roses? I don't mean shades of fuchsia or cool reds, but rather those stridently fire engine red roses that are often floribundas. To me they don't go with any other color in the garden; they just stick out and scream at you. Don't hate me if you love that color, it's just my personal idiosyncracy and I'm thankfully old enough to be allowed a few of those.

I agree red is really difficultdifficult, @ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9. I don't have any either because IIII they just clash with everything else. This year I will however be trying out Louis XIV, a small China that is supposed to be very dark red leaning black.Iblack.I hope he really will be dark and not a ketchup red , especiallyespecially in the heat. Apologies for the horrendous typing,is super buggy for me these daysdays.

I just happened to see Louis XIV only a few minutes ago at Roses Unlimited, and that is definitely not a rose I would hate. The old roses rarely have harsh tones and I think this one looks very intriguing on HMF. Its color seems to vary quite a bit. We will of course expect pictures as soon as ever may be.

@ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9 - no i’m the same. My mum recently bought me a rose when she came over. On holiday she went to a shop that had a bargain bucket of bare roots for £4. It was Ena Harkness. I’ts a very red hybrid tea. Shows it here on DA but they no longer sell it:

https://www.davidaustinroses.co.uk/products/ena-harkness

I cant figure out where to out something that loud 😂

@strawchicago z5. Wondered if you could explain what has happened to my cutting. It is a Chandos B cutting. It has by far the most new growth of all cuttings including the one earlier in this thread that has loads of roots:

So this is all new growth from a bud. Went to repot it like the other one but it has no roots at all, just some hardened chunck right on the end:

I thought a cutting needed roots to form new top growth?

Alfie, that is the craziest thing that ever seen. Perhaps some rooting hormone?

The cane itself is full of stored energy, and can use that to fuel new growth. However, since it has no roots to support more growth, the energy that can be used to make new growth is finite. The cane used up what it had for top growth, but not roots unfortunately.

Thanks. Since it has only been there 2-3 weeks could it still root then?

Alfie That hardened chunk is calloused and will sprout roots eventually. Some rooting hormone like Kristine suggested might help.

In rooting roses, using Homex #8 powder usually produce roots in 2 weeks.

In my decade of rooting roses, what you showed is quite common with HARD WOOD cuttings taken in the fall.

The center of the bush has harder wood than the side-branches. For that reason cuttings taken from THE OUTSIDE BRANCHING of the bush have more chance of growing roots. The center axis of the bush is harder wood with more nitrogen storage for shoots and leaves.

The side-branches have more potassium and phosphorus for blooming; thus the side-branches tissue have more chance of rooting. Potassium and phosphorus are essential to form roots.

A 2nd reason for top growth but no roots: soil is too wet. Potassium for rooting is NOT available when soil is bone dry or soaking wet.

A 3rd reason for top growth but no roots: NOT ENOUGH air in the rooting medium for root growth. My best success of rooting is 2/3 potting soil mixed with 1/3 perlite to introduce air to the soil.

A 4th reason is hybrid tea like Chandos Beauty takes longer to form roots. In rooting a dozen varieties this year to sell & donate to charities, Austin water-hogs form roots 1st within 2 months, next is shrub (3 months), and last is hybrid tea (4 months or longer).

Hybrid teas takes twice longer to root than Austins and floribunda.

It's best to take cuttings from hybrid teas as SOFT WOOD (after 1st flush), rather than HARD WOOD (3rd flush).

There's one hybrid tea that I failed to root for many years, it kept forming leaves and even buds but zero roots, that happened often with harder wood cuttings. This year I took cutting as softwood (right after 1st flush) and it rooted easily.

@strawchicago z5 - thakns for this super response. Very interesting about hybrid teas taking longer. I think based on what you said I have done most of those things except the soil was quite damp so maybe I need to water a lot less. I have 2/3 potting compost to 1/3 vermiculite.

I mixed in some mycorrhizal rooting funghi as I didnt have rooting hormone as I had this for my bare roots and it said on the packet it can be used for cuttings. Do you know how effective mycorrhizal is for rooting cuttings? Maybe I get some proper rooting hormone then. These cuttings have been watered with alfalfa-potash tea so hopefully they have enough nutrients to root. I think maybe repotting so it is not so wet. Thanks again.

@Alfie (North London, UK): Mycorrhizal is VERY EFFECTIVE once roots are formed. I don't use rooting hormone on softwood rootings, but I use rooting hormone on hardwood rootings in the fall.

Once roots are formed, then I put some mycorrhizal powder in watering.

I have an old potting soil filled with old cilantro roots. Cilantro roots are very aggressive, so I re-use the old soil by mixing in gypsum then flush out gypsum's acidity with water.

That old potting soil was rich with mycorrhizal fungi from the cilantro's roots. I planted W.S. 2000 rooting, and that rooting grew at a faster rate than the W.S. 2000 rooting planted in brand-new potting soil.

Any old soil from aggressive roots (weeds, or spearmint) contain mycorrhyizal fungi to help with aggressive root growth.

Evelyn and Abraham Darby can look similar to each other, and it's even more confusing with 2 mutations or sport of Evelyn (one is a short shrub with open stamens and fast repeat, the other is a climber with buttonhole blooms). Click on links below for more info:

Compare Evelyn to Abraham Darby & sulfate of potash to stop diseases (houzz.com)

Another Just For Fun - Evelyn or Abe? (houzz.com)