Ken mine are young, especially Gloire de Ducher-it was a band and it went in a shady spot but so far she seems very much a climber. Long, pliable canes.

Ardoisee is a bit gangly-I would compare the shape to Yves Piaget

I can't comment on either rose, as I don't grow them, but, Ken, could you remind us where you live and what conditions are like in your garden?

Malissa---I live in the United States, in the state of Georgia. Up in the N.E. corner of the state, at the east side of the Great Smokie Mountains. Zone 7. The winters can be a wild swing of temps and summers are usually hot and humid.

I found 'Ardiosee de Lyon' to be extremely prone to Blackspot in my climate. The Hybrid Perpetuals as a group tend to have severe Backspot problems, which is often a serious issue in hot/humid climates.