I'm pretty sure London is US zone 8, and a lot of England as well. You don't know cold. Does England have its own zone system? In US zone 5A. you would expect to get down to -20F at your lowest in winter. It got down that cold here in 2016-7 and I'm in zone 7. However, England is very far north, so that will weaken your sun. Diane

Latitude of London is 51.5 degrees north, and Boise, Idaho, in the top northern tier of states, is 43.62 degrees north. You are way up north. So mild temps because of the sea, and week sun because you're so far north. Diane

@Diane Brakefield - no we don't have our own zone system. You're right, I think it is equivalent to around 8. Coldest temperatures this winter were around -6 to -7

Centigrade Alfie?

I'm sure it's centigrade, and -6C would be about 22F. Not very cold. Anyway, try to grow your roses in as much sun as possible. Diane

I just had a thread relating to this. I have seen posts from people in England where they say they grow Austin’s in 4 hours of sun before and they do well. I kept thinking of they could do it, then it should work here. I have had difficulty growing roses successfully in anything less than 6 hours of direct sun. My roses which includes many Austin’s all prefer more than 6 and do their best in all day sun. Rare specimen like the knockouts and iceberg can perform well as once bloomers in 4 hours but not many. Sorry for the rambling, I would love to hear of the results if the OP tries any Austin in less than 6 hours in England.

And like always Diane you are correct. Here in my zone 7b many of my roses are fully awake and with buds already (lots of differences between zones). The hard freezes from the other day destroyed the top growth and buds from anything in pots, but the ones in the ground seem to have done better.

Dianela, yes, there are many, many differences among our gardens in similar cold hardiness zones. That's why I keep droning on about the zones being just about the cold-- the coldest average temps over a 20 year time period in a given area. They have nothing to do with length of growing seasons, lake effects, altitude affects, humidity or lack of it, precipitation, my fixation on latitude, and I drone on. I was just discussing London's "US cold hardiness zone" because I knew London wasn't zone 5, for heaven's sake. I get a lot of that info from the excellent magazine, The English Garden, which is also full of entertaining eye candy. Dianela, you should try a few issues. I wonder if the Brits are happy with smaller roses and fewer blooms in their sun at four hours a day than we malcontents in the US would be. Just speculating. Diane

South Florida, USA zone 10b here. I used the Austin website recommendations as a guide, but not hard/fast rule. I'm in the USA and several people have said the Austin website recommendations do not match with US climates. True, but you are in the UK... so I'm thinking that they should match. You can also call Austin direct and talk to one of their people. SUPER helpful.

In my case: I also used the member comments/ratings found on 'helpmefind' roses website, which were way more helpful as I could see where the members were located around the world. You can look up each of the Austins you are considering, and check the member comments for those coming from the UK. DA's are popular, there are usually many comments from people growing that actual rose in their garden's.

I would say.... also consider what else has grown well in the spots you are putting the Austins. Sometimes the soil/plants already there are your best indicator of the type/amount of Sun that area is getting.

@Diane Brakefield

You make a good point, our expectations are a big part of what we define as “good performance”. I am going to look into getting that magazine ASAP :). Thank you very much for the recommendation.

"I wonder if the Brits are happy with smaller roses and fewer blooms in their sun at four hours a day than we malcontents in the US would be. Just speculating."

Ha ha I doubt that. Definitely the most loved flower nationally here.

I find it very interesting about some of you saying 6 even 8 hours of full sun a day is needed as a minium for roses. Here are some from my garden last year that are definitiely not in full sun:

Lyons FT (which you helped me ID last year Diane - thanks!) with 4-5 hours a day:

Had 150+ flowers at the end of first flush.

Abraham Darby directly opposite so 4-5 hours too:

Blooms were huge.

Chandos beauty with 5-6 hours in my courtyard in a pot:

Dhalis spartacus with around 6 hours (so maybe just about full sun):

PAOK with 4-5 hours per day:

Finally, Graham Thomas (well, that's what the tag attached to the main stem says but it is definitely not that - think it may be Compte de Champagne). This only gets 3-4 hours:

I do know that some DA varities need a lot more sun where they do well in the US but not in the UK to the extent they don't sell them here e.g. Evelyn.

Oh lord…..that Chandos Beauty. Be still my heart😍

Gorgeous roses, Alfie, and I want to comment more after I run an errand. Your rose just above look a lot like Jude the Obscure--I'd love to see more pics of your rose because I know there's another Austin that looks quite a bit like Jude, but isn't. Evelyn isn't sold here, either. Talk later.

Dianela, yes, you'll enjoy that magazine. There are many good gardening books out there for info, plus I have some friends that spent considerable time in the UK, and that changed me about my weather assumptions of these countries. More about that, too. Diane

@Alfie (North London, UK)

your roses are beautiful. It was after seeing your Lion’s rose last time that I ordered one from Palatine this year.

Do you have a lot of blackspot pressure in your area? Do you have to spray with antifungals all season long for them to have leaves? For example my Princess Alexandra of Ken is in less than 6 hours and with so little sun it defoliates constantly from blackspot and has rarely bloomed after the first flush. It barely grows because it is constantly trying to generate new leaves.

I am trying to figure out if it isn’t about the sun hours but disease pressure here. I have always assumed England was very humid so you must have lots of blackspot but maybe I am wrong.

Gorgeous, Alfie. 😍

Your Compte de ChampagneChampagne reminds me of Jude and Wollerton Old Hall

I’ll just answer about my part shade Austin’s and leave it up to you who to try . My Roald Dahl , imogen ( Swoon ! ) , ambridge , James Galway and shropshire lad all did well in part shade . I’d imagine any of the lesser petaled ones would have a better chance ! If I had room , I would grow scepterd isle in the shade too . She’s one of my favorites.

Absolutely dying of envy over that chandos beauty .. it’s so hard to find here !

Beautiful roses, Alfie. Beautiful.

Ah manic day at work today. Thank you all for your lovely kind comments.

Yes I really do adore Chandos Beauty. It is the most amazing rose. It really hits everything; diseases resistance, attractive foliage, number of blooms, size of the blooms, and the scent is gorgeous. It is particularly special to me as that one in the photo I purchased from their breeding centre from the owner himself (Phillip Harkness). He had just got back from the Chelsea flower show where they won (either gold or silver - it's always between DA and Harkness who wins gold and silver most years).

I happened to come along the same day they were selling the roses that were on show that they brought back with them. So that one has been to the Chelsea flower show! It's a great place to buy roses at the breeding centre as it is normally very quiet since they do not promote buying of their roses much (even though they stock almost every rose). Phillip is great to chat too for advice or just anything rose related. I find rose breeding particularly interesting being a scientist myself. Anyone interested I recommend this clip to see just how much effort goes into breeding just a handful of roses that make it to the market:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVIoQy4JK0c&t=586s

@Diane Brakefield - that is very interesting about Jude the Obscure. You may well be right. I will dig out some more photos later. It is definitely well scented so maybe it is not Compte de Champagne. The reason it had minimal sunlight is because it has dappled shade under a hazel tree so I dug it up this Autumn and moved it to the front (fingers crossed it survived). Out of the 50 + roses in my garden I have only 3 that I couldn't identify from previous owners and if that is Jude that will be two identified by you - thanks!!! You have a very keen eye for rose varieties. Super skill you have.

@Lilyfinch z9a Murrieta Ca - thanks for the suggestions. I think RD is one to try as I have heard others in the UK say it does well in shade.

@dianela7analabama - thank you, yes LF is a breathtaking rose in terms of how prolific the blooms are and how immaculate the foliage is. Good luck with your LF, it will be wonderful. I do get some blackspot for sure. I don't treat it as I don't like using chemicals. Lions FT never gets any blackspot, the disease resistance is unreal. I find PAOK definitely suffers towards the end of the season but for the main two flushes it holds up well. Having had advice from the wonderful @strawchicago z5 I think it is related to high frequency of rainfall at the end of the season so I'm going to try buffering that later in the season with garden lime as she suggested.

@dianela7analabama - do you have your PAOK in a pot or in the ground? I use a slow release rose fertiliser with a heavy mulch on top in spring. I then give it periodic liquid feeds throughout the season. I also put a bark mulch around the base (in addition to the organic mulch). This was my first flush of PAOK:

Here is the second flush. Blooms not as large but lots more of them:

Still strong, healthy foliage. I did move it onto the patio for more sun. Third flush was not good at all and it had terrible black spot after frequent rainfall at the end of the season. Do your neighbours find similar issues? If not, it might be a soil/nutrient issue.

@Diane Brakefield - found some more photos of close up single blooms:

Jude the Obscure then?

The upper photos are a bit too yellow for Jude--at least compared to mine here. Check photos of Wollerton Old Hall. Here's my Jude, which is in its 19th year and grafted on Dr Huey. The color is consistent every year, but I know different rootstocks can produce some color variation. I've noticed also with the roses I have the are grafted on multiflora rootstock. I only grow two own root roses, and one, not an Austin rose, varies from the two others that are grafted. That's a lovely rose, whatever you decide it is. I grew PAoK for several years right after she was introduced into the US. What a monster she was who threatened to take over the entire flower bed, and certainly didn't get along with Munstead Wood, her neighbor. I removed PAoK and am much happier with another Munstead and a Twilight Zone between the two Munsteads. Diane

Jude the Obscure

Here's. Wollerton.

My buds are always kissed with pink/red.

Alfie, can you describe the fragrance on your mystery rose?

I really looked at the HMF photos of Wollerton and this rose looks like it has fewer petals than Jude. I'm putting my bets on Wollerton. Diane

Jude again

Brother Cadfael and Jude the Obscure

@Diane Brakefield - thanks for your pictures and insights. Yeh maybe it’s not Jude then. Your lovely Jude blooms are certainly larger. If you think it’s Wollerton then we will certainly find out soon as that was in my winter bare root order this year! The only thing about Wollerton is it seems more ivory white whereas my rose is quite orange and only fades to that colour. The lowest petals on Wollerton also seem to always be quite fanned out. It could be due to heavy dappled shade why it doesn’t look as similar as it should maybe?

@librarian_gardner_8b_pnw - stunning Wollerton blooms. Either way I’m very excited after seeing your pictures as I definitely have at least one Wollerton! Yes I remember the smell - it is strong with notes of citrus/lemon I would say. I remembered it well as I don’t have any other strong smelling roses with those particular notes. Abe is the closest but that is much more fruity than citrus.

Looking at both your pictures closely the lowest of @librarian_gardner_8b_pnw picture looks most like mine:

Also the Wollerton buds are more orange like mine.

Wollerton is a strong myrrh fragrance. Anise, hints of lilac and caramel/marshmallow. Reminds me of an old fashioned candy. As the bloom ages it gets a hint of grapefruit. Whatever your rose is, it's gorgeous.

Saw this when doing another search...

https://www.rose.org/single-post/2018/04/27/growing-roses-in-partial-shade

I have chased the sun for most of my gardens. I have found that if it is morning sun, I have better results with the same number of rays.

I had success with these in Texas. I did others but these were the best.

Angle Face

Bolero

Iceberg

Molineux

Abe Darby

Dark Lady (best of shade lovers)

Sophy's Rose - takes more than most

Souv. de la Malmaison - very tolerant

I envy few, it is not one of my sins....

except those gardeners who have 5-6 hrs. of sun for their roses. In Texas, a little dab will do ya!

5 is enough

Good Luck.

Sophy's Rose in August in Dallas. 4-5 hrs. partial sun only real sun mid- day for a couple of hours

In Houston late spring only morning sun.

Sophy during Spring more shade but cooler temps

Angle face in spring this area got lots of shade barely 5.

Molineux blooms like this year-round 5 hrs at most and in fall less

I have lot of great pics of Dark Lady, but it is hard to get her. She did better than any of the other; I don't think she even liked the sun.

Hope this helps/ I found pictures were the best when I was searching for roses in shade as we are all accepting of different amount of greatness when we are judging what works for us.

@Austin - thank you for the recommendations. Your roses are beautiful. I especially like Molineux - it's gorgeous and has such immaculate foliage.

The one on arch is Abe it does great in shade but can ball if too much humidity… not usually a problem in Dallas but was in Houston. Grew in both cities in lots of shade

Oh and Abe is also on Arch behind Angle Face and the pale rose in front is Bolero or Souv. de la Malaison

@Alfie (North London, UK) my PoK is in the ground and she loses all her foliage right after blooming around the 2nd week of may. I only fertilize with slow release and used to add cow manure in the past but haven’t done it in a while. I may move one of mine to a pot and try to pamper it a bit. Your plant looks fantastic specially being in a pot, you have a green thumb.

Mine have never gotten any bigger

PAoK is doing great in my open shade backyard. She never gets bigger than 3.5' here. Mine is in the ground and never loses all the leaves. Maybe we have different BS strains, dianela?

July, 2022.

Beautiful roses everyone, i finally caight on to this thread and I’m glad I have a few Harkness roses out there.

@Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a) - it certainly does!!! Lovely blooms. I never had them cluster together like that in a pot - looks beautiful. Maybe I need to buy some more for the ground 😂

How many hours of Sun does PAoK get there in the summer? What’s that lovely yellow rose in the back right?

@SoCalGardenNut - what Harkness roses do you have?

Alfie, in summer she only gets direct sunlight between 10am and 1pm due to the surrounding trees. I'm in Seattle where the climate is considered to be similar to the UK. She is a rose that can bloom even from the thin stems, but the most abundant clusters are on the thick stems. I've been trying to cut the thickest ones a little more back and hope I can hoax more new shoots coming out. This is her third year in the ground so we will see.

The yellow rose is South Africa ('Golden Beauty' in the UK). It is more orange in cooler temperatures and yellower in warmer days. This is a photo taken on the same day as PAoK.

@Alfie (North London, UK), I have Paul Shriville, Chandos Beauty, Quietness, and Savoy Hotel.

@Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a) - that is a lovely rose. I nearly got that in my bare root order this winter when I was looking to expand my Kordes collection. Is that pompenella I see behind it?

@Alfie (North London, UK)

that does look like Pomponella in Feiy Los picture. That is another amazing Kordes that has incredible disease resistance and blooms well. Since you mentioned you may want to expand your collection you may want to take a look at Earth Angel, Crazy Love ( Villa Cotta), Quick Silver, Florentina, Bordeaux Cityscape , Summer Romance, Madame Anisette and Dark desire. These all have great disease resistance in my humid garden. I just added 6 more Kordes to my garden this year so I’ll have more insight in the future.

@Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a)

I love your roses. South Africa looks amazing and I may need to try it, I am in love with yellows lately. I do think blackspot strains are varied and us being very far away from each other makes it more likely. That we have different blackspot strains. I think even being in the same area you can have different strains circulating . Even in the same garden a rose may be fine one year and not the next as pathogens change and so on. We also probably have very different soils and according to Straw who knows these things always talks about the huge difference the ph of the soil and rain makes in the health of the plants as the ph changes affectng nutrient availability. I have thought about testing my soil/water and really getting into the science behind it but have never actually done it, maybe one day I will. For now I am just testing roses and keeping the ones with excellent health no spray and removing any that needs much papering. So I would love to hear of your best healthy roses.

Well spotted! It is Pomponella, a wonderful performer that wants to grow bigger.

dianela I totally agree with you about BS. I don't spray either and always hunt for healthy roses. The cleanest roses in my garden are Queen of Sweden, Olivia, Arctic Blue, Ispahan, Aptos, Darlow's Enigma, Rosarium Uetersen, Cream Veranda(Joie de Vivre), Lady Hillingdon, Big Purple, Marie Pavie, most Rugosas, and many others I can't remember right now. Maybe we can share our notes if you don't mind I'm a newbie gardener.

Alfie, have you tried Queen of Sweden? It used to be on the front border but got too tall. I moved it to a very shady place (one hour direct sun) against the fence last spring. Surprisingly, it bloomed even better than I thought it would. After the spring flush it kept blooming here and there. It's vigorous and healthy that I want to train it to be a short climber eventually.

@Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a) - that pomponella is incredible. So floriferous. How old is that shrub? funny you should mention QoS as that is the one I was thinking of ordering next from DA! Looks beautiful especially with the limited sunlight you said it gets.

@dianela7analabama - I ordered some two Kordes roses this winter - Dark desire and Lovely Parfuma. Thanks for this list of roses to try. How does dark desire do in your garden? Does it bloom a lot? I mainly got it for the scent and disease resistance. What 6 did you get this year?

I have a Dark Desire out there, bought it from Heirloom, it‘s in full sun and doing really well.

however near by spot, Memorial day is dying. Sigh!

Oh, everybody...glorious roses!!!! Oh my goodness!!!

dianela Burdeaux looks great for me! How is it doing in the rain? Roses with many petals here are easy balling and we do get lots of rain in spring and fall.

Alfie the pic shows only half of Pomponella. It is about 4' wide now and wants to grow even higher if I let it. I got it as a band (3" pot) and kept it in a 2 gallon pot for one year. This is its third year in the ground. Beautiful and healthy, I think you'll like it.

@dianela7analabama - thanks for those lovely pictures. I’m very excited for my dark desire now. It grows really well in your lovely garden. The blooms are stunning. Zooming in closely they have very unique almost black buds which is cool.

The Burdeaux is stunning!! Never seen so many buds and blooms on one plant!!! Checked and can’t find anywhere online that sells it in the UK sadly. Real show stopper in your garden.

Out of your other Kordes roses I’ve only heard of Peach Melba. That’s popular in the UK. Please send photos of those Kordes’ in the summer!

@Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a)

Bodraux opens here without any issues. I have not experienced any balling issues ever. Earth Angel is one of my top favorite roses but does ball some in our super wet springs.

Also I feel my image needs a correction. You are seeing one plant from the side there but there are three plants together in a row. I have to keep it well pruned.

Here you can expand and see the multiple plants.

Dianela - your roses are superb! I'm blown away by the beauty of the individual blooms and by the bushes as a whole. Exquisite!!

Here in Portland, Oregon, there are two PAOK's in 100% shade and they bloom in flushes a LOT. Say 3-4 big flushes per season. It's astounding to me. The blooms are huge, the foliage stays clean, and there is good fragrance. One note--the ground in these spots is extremely dry which might contribute to their success.

@Diane Brakefield I've had a subscription to The English Garden for several years now and just love it. The one thing I've noticed with their success (over there) in growing plants is that because they are much further north than I am, there days are a lot longer too. So even if they don't get as much direct sun, I assumed that they get more overall light due to the longer days. In any case, I drool over the garden pics in the mag and live vicariously through all those walled estate gardens, haha.

On another note, I have both Wollerton Old Hall and Jude, and honestly? I kind of want to cull Jude. It's beautiful with beautiful fragrance, but it really only blooms for me twice a season, whereas, WOH blooms non-stop. Different fragrance between the two of course, but I originally got Jude because everyone raved about its fragrance (deservedly so). I think I now want something that blooms more in my small garden.

English days are longer, but for a shorter period of time. I'm in the same latitude as southern Maine, and our days are longer in summer than say, Florida's, but for a shorter time period. The tilt of the earth on its axis is more pronounced when summer or winter begin the farther north you are. You can get 23 hour days in summer way up north in Alaska and giant veggies. But the opposite is true in winter with 23 hour nights. At the equator, days and nights would be about the same length of time for 12 months of the year. I'm sorry about your disappointment in Jude. Do you grow Munstead Wood. That rose blooms continuously; so does my Golden Celebration, but it's gigantic, so wouldn't work well, probably, in your garden. Tamora is small and blooms continuously. Diane

Thanks Diane. I have no energy to remove Jude so he'll stay until I feel really motivated haha. I do have Golden Celebration crammed in nearby, and it blooms constantly (got it as a 4" from Annie's Annuals). So does PAOK.

Munstead Wood? Gosh. I first bought it from DA as a (tiny) potted plant. But it died a week after it arrived (they refunded it). I ordered a bare root the next season but it arrived with mold and rot (they refunded it). They sent a new potted plant this past spring...but it turned out to be Darcey Bussell. I feel like I am not meant to have Munstead Wood. Ha!

Robert, you have the "curse of Munstead" upon you, I'm sorry to say. That's great news about GC, and interesting that it came from Annie's. Diane