Hello! It's fantastic that you're planning a kitchen renovation for your forever home. Let me try to address your questions and concerns below.

1. Coordination between the kitchen designer (KD) and general contractor (GC) is essential for a successful project. Having your trusted GC recommend a KD they've worked with before can ensure seamless communication and collaboration. Alternatively, if you find a KD you adore, introduce them to your GC to foster a harmonious working relationship.
2. Requesting a rough estimate from your GC without a KD's plan may give you a general idea of costs but won't be entirely accurate. Once you have a detailed plan from a KD, your GC can offer a more precise estimate.
3. Feel free to collaborate with a KD on the kitchen design now and present it to your GC later. Just remember to keep your GC informed and updated on any design changes that could impact their work or the timeline.
4. Engage a KD from the very beginning, as they can assist with space planning and offer valuable suggestions for door and window placement, as well as plumbing considerations. Their expertise will help you achieve an optimized layout and functional kitchen.

If you have a GC you love, I'd stick with them--that is worth a lot. See if they can recommend any KDs they've liked working with in the past. If not, just ask friends and neighbors and be upfront that you already have your GC selected. Nothing wrong with having the GC give you a ballpark to start, and also flag any constraints you'll want to be aware of. If you were price shopping you might want to handle that a bit differently, but if you already know who you're working with, it can be informal.

I would involve the KD from the beginning and also have your GC in the loop throughout. We did our own kitchen design, but found it really valuable to contract with a local KD at the beginning for big picture ideas (did we want to move doors or windows? did we want to take down walls?) and then again near the end for specific review of plans (was everything to code? were all the clearances accounted for? etc.) A good KD will have both lenses so you want them involved throughout the planning.

It may depend on your market. We started with a kitchen designer, and she drew up plans that included changes to doors and windows. Contractors in our area weren't interested in bidding without finished plans--some of them wanted actual tile, quartz, and appliance selection finished before they would bid.

I'd get that kitchen design nailed down first. Then show it to your GC and then shop it to a couple more to make sure his price is in line.

Hire the kitchen designer first. My kitchen designer created very specific plans so that they could be submitted to the GC's for actual bids as well as to the city for the necessary permits.

If you have a GC you trust, you would submit the plans to that GC and your kitchen designer might have some recommendations as well. I didn't have any GC that I was tied to although some of my neighbors had used GC's they were pleased with.

I wound up going with a GC that my kitchen designer worked with on a number of projects. This was a good move because as she said, she knew how he worked and also since she provided on going business to him, pleasing her was much more important than pleasing a single consumer.

Of course if I had a GC that I really liked and trusted and they turned in a competitive bid, no reason not to use them.

"I'd get that kitchen design nailed down first. Then show it to your GC and then shop it to a couple more to make sure his price is in line.:

That sounds like an excellent way to possibly set money on fire. You need to make sure whatever gets drawn is within your budget. If your designer does revisions for free, go for it. You'll need them when the shopped GCs all come in 30% over budget.

First, take a breath.

"Can I do the kitchen design process with a KD separately now then bring it to my GC when we are ready financially to get an estimate and actually demo?"

Not the best idea. Getting an INDEPENDENT KD, in there , along with your GC, or hers if she strongly has a preference and one she works with regularly is better. Where may you need support/structure? Do you have an easily accessed basement for plumbing relocation?

Two heads together in a space.

Independent kd vs. one employed WITHIN a brick/mortar shop. This one is tricky. Both may sell cabinetry. Both can be good. The independent has multiple ways of structuring a fee, may even have multiple sources including her own local craftsman. The brick mortar employee does not. He/ she is THERE for one purpose. Sell a kitchen.

Before any of this? Have a very clear idea of your appliance needs. Cook, and refrigeration the most important of those.

Have a very clear sense of what you want that kitchen to feel like, and how that look will mesh with a more open floor plan. Count on the fact, that there is always some domino effect in remodel, to adjacent spaces.

The best idea?

Post your existing total living floor in a very accurately scaled floor plan. Every wall window, door, passage etc. Upload it here. Don't begin a new thread. Add pictures of the current space. Add pictures , inspos of the dream kitchen !

You might be pleasantly surprised at how much help you get.

You still have to do the rest : ) But you are asking in "spit in the wind" fashion for us. Do some homework. Lets see the what, where, etc.

Of the e.n.t.i.r.e floor the new kitchen shall be living within.

Kitchen designer first. A good designer with construction experience can be of great help get your basics defined at a lower cost then get GC involved to perfect and ensure it is all in code and can be permitted in your area. Do you know the basic footprint you are working with? Do you know what quality level you want in range or stove/oven combo? Kitchen budget gets established for overall budget first. In other words, what is your upper limit? There are hundreds of details in kitchen remodels. With today’s costs you need a good contingency too for rising costs. It’s a big deal but the more details you can determine up front, the more success you will have including staying near your top budget line. Lots of talented kitchen folks here so as Jan mentioned, give us your measurements as accurately as possible in a scale drawing along with needs, nice to do and wish lists. And ballpark budget top.

You have a GC you like and want to use, so you've already started there. I wouldn't rely on the GC for accurate kitchen estimating, particularly as costs have fluctuated wildly (well, mostly just risen wildly) over the last few years. I'd get the GC and KD introduced and have them work together from the get-go. Your KD should be the primary driver of decisions like window and door relocation and anything else aesthetic and functional, with GC offering input primarily toward feasibility, code/zoning, cost, and any practical complications that may affect the design. GC may also have input on their experience using certain materials, preference for this or that type of door or window or cabinet, durability/quality, install difficulty, etc. For instance, my GC wanted to use Marvin windows no matter what, so that's what my architect spec'd. Because they worked together from the beginning, it was seamless.

If you are hiring a designer, they're going to charge you (in some way, shape, or form) for the design, whether you construct it or not. As long as you are comfortable paying over some amount of money for a design that you may wait a year or more to implement, then you should have no shame in going down the design road, getting it estimated out, and making a decision then about whether you want to do it now or wait. I paid my GC for his cost-estimating services (a modest amount - ~$1,200, which is credited toward my last invoice) to do his end of it. It was well worth it.

Banker and Money first. Where is that coming from? How much is available? What are the priorities for it being spent? Do you care if you are "over improving" for the neighborhood?

If this is an upscale 160K+ renovation, you need to know how much ++ you are realistically comfortable spending. You can spend all kinds of crazy money blowing out walls and adding additions, but there are very few markets where that type of expense will be returned to you at resale. Figure out your line in the sand as far as the cost you are willing to spend on that house, before you throw up your hands and say "we will just move." https://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/major-kitchen-remodel-upscale?y=2023

Once you have a budget figure in mind, then work with a good KD for a "concept design" to show to your GC. You do not need to know that you will have a 4 equal size drawer base next to your range, and have genuine Mexican saltillo tile on the floors. You just need a rough draft of the major changes to the layout being made, and a 1-10 idea of the level of quality and expense to be spent. People always underestimate the costs for the level, BTW. National average middle of the road kitchens are 80K these day. That's a Level 5, average, right in the middle. An upscale kitchen, blowing out that 20' wall for a La Cantina slide and stack door to the patio, and putting in a 48" range that needs a gas line and vent pipe, and HVAC upgrade are going to put you in a 7-10. Depends on everything else.

Take that concept to the GC for a ballpark. Ask what are the major costs driving that ballpark, so that if it's already over your budget figure, you can see if you eliminate that 20' La Cantina door, you can meet budget. Or, the whole thing may be way over your budget. But, you will only be out a couple of thousand for design work, instead of thousands and thousands. Expect the ballpark to rise, as the design is revised to include more details. At least 30%. So, you want that initial to be at least 40% under your max.

Once the GC gives you the rough ballpark, that is when you can work on the 4 drawer base next to the range, and the merits of a wood hood vs stainless. Those are the decisions that make the cost rise, so this is where YOU get to control costs, via your want list, vs what you actually need. If you cannot reign in your wants, expect to go more than 40% above your initial ballpark price given by the GC. "While we are at it" change orders will sink a budget.

I knew the KD I wanted first (she's a long time friend, I know she's been through design school and keeps up with multiple certifications like lighting, and I've seen her work in multiple friends' kitchens.) She works with multiple builders, but I chose the one she recommended and who did all the kitchens I've seen.

I walked through the house with the KD and builder, then got an estimate from the builder before making an offer on the house. (It's an extensive remodel, not just the kitchen, and I knew it would be expensive. But I also knew I didn't want the house without doing the work.)

I consider myself to be very lucky! My KD and builder are great, both are responsive to my ideas and answer my questions, and I'm saving money by using their vendor relationships.

To more directly answer your question: you might benefit from interviewing KDs and GCs separately, then ask who they recommend/work with for the other role, and interview those people too. Yes, that will take some time, but finding the right fit is important.

I did three custom kitchens (true custom-built cabinetry) in the past eight years. One was my forever kitchen (kitchen #2 referenced below) - a total gut job that included removing walls and a staircase.

Kitchens #1 and #2 were laid out by our architect. The GC worked directly with the cabinet makers. I designed kitchen #3 to maximize utility in a small space and again, the GC worked directly with the cabinet maker.

Our architect knows me well. He has cooked with me, being a guest in our home many times. He gave me ideas that were very different from the dream kitchen picture in my mind but after listening to his reasoning, which was based on years of designing custom homes, I realized he was right and I ended up making only minor changes to his plan.

All my thoughts are based on kitchen #2.

My experience –

The KD wouldn’t even sit down to talk price and design until I had all appliances purchased and spec books from the dealer in hand. I was welcome to the showroom to look around and ask questions but the design didn’t start until the appliances were set in stone. Looking back, I understand why the appliances were step one.

Because we were absolutely set on one particular cabinet maker (our choice), we were tied to their local KD.

1. If you love your GC, stick with them.

Give some thought to how you use your kitchen. Are you a hardcore cook? Or do you keep active kitchen time to a minimum? Do you want a workhorse kitchen? Or a kitchen where looks matter more than function? Not a trick question, knowing this will help you decide where to spend your money.

2. With the quickly changing environment, I would not rely on a rough estimate given now to resemble actual costs 6-9 months from now.

3. Absolutely

4. Now is the time to bring in an architect and KD. The KD will fine tune the design when the plans are finished.

There are KDs that like to make kitchens look pretty and there are KDs that understand construction, design and truly enjoy making a clients dreams come true.

You want the later. I had the former. It was a non-stop fight when she wanted to overrule the architect's plans at every turn. I still regret letting her talk me into changing the inlay doors I wanted to overlay doors.

Find a kitchen designer who cooks, if you care about cooking. If you don’t cook much now, a well designed kitchen can change that. First, you will need to eat in to help pay for it! Second, when the work flow just naturally flows, and things are in the right spots, cooking is not a ” chore”. It’s fun.

A good kitchen designer can work with (almost) any contractor. But, with complete design services, and things well documented, and a GOOD contractor, you will not need the kitchen designer to project manage the vision also. With a poor contractor, you will need the problem solving skills of the kitchen designer, and likely need them to project manage the whole job, in order for it to end up how you envision it.

There are *some* contractors who can not work with designers, and disparage them. They seek to undermine the designer/client relationship, because they are threatened by it. You want to try to weed those out. The best contrators look at designers as helping them avoid delays and mistakes. They look at their subs, and the designers, as being a part of a team. Because they are!

Nailed it Charles.

Hello! I know it's been like a year and half since I asked for your very insightful thoughts. I had a baby and then had some health issues to deal with. BUT this has been such a valuable thread for me during that time. We ended up hiring an independent kitchen designer who very much gets our life and how we use the kitchen, but also works on other aspects of the house, new builds, holistic house design, etc. GC's have been involved in the design process from the start since we are doing some bigger reno stuff. We are at a place where we believe the general layout is figured out, but no firm pricing estimates on the scope of work nor the exact cabinetry or appliances. After doing lotsa lotsa math, hubby and I have a budget in mind, too and are aiming to pull the trigger come spring or fall of 2025.

Seriously appreciate your inputs on the process. Sorry for the radio silence--it wasn't ingratitude! I already know I have lots of questions coming down the pipeline, so I hope your patience hasn't been worn out already!