Carrier 13 SEER 2.5 Ton 1 stage AC, for $15K or Goodman 14 seer 3 ton AC for $13.7K.

Is the Goodman a 2-stage condenser? If not then why a 3 ton condenser vs. the 2.5 ton Carrier?

You didn't post model numbers of all the equipment and all the items included in the quotes. Based on what you have posted so far these prices seem high. I suggest you get additional quotes. You could replace the transformer and try to get 2-4 years if the current equipment is in good condition.

The Carrier quoted is the 24SCA430W with the FJ4D Air Handler Handler. He didn’t include the exact model for the Goodman, but we can ask.

We only expect to be in the house for 2 to 4 more years.

Rose, It really won't matter all that much between brands due to refrigerant changes that are on the cusp of becoming a reality. These particular units would be entry level units. Change the refrigerant and due to leaks this will drive new equipment sales yet again. Refrigerants are phased out and once that happens prices follow suit.

Within another year the new refrigerant units will start to show up that will be forced change starting in 2025 unless someone sues the government which will essentially make everything sold this year obsolete from a long term perspective... because you're selling the house soon you're more or less doing it to avoid the craziness of refrigerant choices and possibly negate a potential problem.

As long as the installation is done properly either of these brands at this level are ok choices for your particular situation and time horizon.

Given that you are moving selling this house within 2-4 years you're more or less doing it for someone else. Your area is primarily 3 month cooling, you won't recoup doing more than entry level machine.

If you're curious as to what, how, why, when and where all this refrigerant stuff is about I have a currently 2.5 hours worth of video discussing it, the ramifications and possible gotchya's.

Some other characters that frequent this board will tell you it's a cartoon due to the graphics I developed for my HVAC company. It is not a cartoon, my Youtube channel is set as "not for kids". But with proper supervision there is nothing on my channel that is detrimental to kids. It's always the same old story with enthusiasts who don't actually do HVAC.

They may tell you to visit the EPA, the government watch group that forces many of the decisions us HVAC contractors are able to offer you. However, the EPA lied to us all that R410a was environmentally friendly. This video series is about setting the record straight for those that want truth rather than fiction.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

The Carrier 24SCA430W is a model from the Comfort series condenser. I believe it is the least expensive in the current product line. You should ask for the justification for the $15K quote.

The Goodman is the GSX14.

The HVAC guy said labor and parts have gone up significantly. This is Massachusetts so I expect labor to be more than the rest of the country. It also includes disposing of the old equipmemt, replacing the wiring including a new outlet outside, air handler, etc. The currenr system is in fhe attic through a typical 1 person drop down ladder, so it’s not trivial work, though I’m sure they deal with many attics like this.

I’ve called three other companies this morning. One can’t send anyone out to give us a quote until mid-July. The other two haven’t called back yet.

@ Charles Ross Homes

Are you saying that the 3 ton Goodman could be worse than the 2.5 ton Carrier, simply because it’s bigger? The currenr system is 2.5 ton and has always gotten the upstairs cool enough. It’s a split entry house, and we don’t have an output duct on the lower level but do have a small intake duct, in addition to the main intake duct on the upper level. The lower level doesn’t get as cool as we’d like, but it’s acceptable.

Installing a 3-ton capacity system when you need a 2.5 ton capacity system may indeed do you a disservice. An air conditioner has to accomplish two tasks: 1.) to cool, and 2.) to dehumidify indoor air. An over-sized unit may cool the home too quickly, achieve the desired temperature setpoint and shut off before it accomplishes much dehumidification. The result is often a cool, clammy indoor environment. Over-sized systems with variable-speed or multiple-stage condensers are more forgiving because they can operate at reduced capacity with longer cycle times and provide more dehumidification. You don't get that option with a single-stage unit which is what you're being quoted.

Both are a rip-off! Keep looking!

So one place i called won’t do estimates until Juiy, and the second won’t do them till August. They’re all booked up.

If the AC is functioning well with no problems, then wait until September to get additional quotes. It appears there is a shortage of HVAC installers in your area and they are taking advantage of the supply and demand pricing. Massachusetts may be a high price area, but these quotes are higher than I would expect to see in the Bay area in California.

@Rose Beginner(MA - 6A)

You might want to investigate whether you qualify for rebates under the Mass Save program. With rebates included, you may find it's economical to switch out your existing air conditioner for a high-efficiency heat pump. Here's a link to information about the program:

https://www.masssave.com/en

• The Carrier 24SCA430W spec shows a SEER of 13.5 - 16.5 depending on installation.
• The Goodman GSX140361K spec shows a SEER of 14.

With the matched "builder grade" coils and air handlers/furnaces, the carrier will have a SEER of 13 and the Goodman a SEER of 14. "Up to" 16.5 and 15 (respectively), you'd need a variable speed air handler and a high efficiency coil, neither of which are likely to be paired with their bottom of the line condensers.

you'd need a variable speed air handler and a high efficiency coil, neither of which are likely to be paired with their bottom of the line condensers.

The low end air handlers and furnaces come with the lower cost ecm motor which is essentially variable speed (same difference more or less except the ecm is a different cheaper way of doing the same thing that a true VS motor does.

The manufacturers don't make a separate "high efficiency coil" --- the over all efficiency is determined by the whole machine, duct work, line set etc.

If it's not installed properly or it develops a refrigerant leak all that efficiency goes out the litteral window. I've worked on some pretty equipment that didn't work at all, but boy was she pretty a sight to see curly cued wires the whole 9 yards.

If they spent all the time making the system look pretty but it doesn't work I wondered what was the point? She isn't walking down the runway no matter how fancy she looks.

I guess you could argue about coils that use an electronic metering device as those would be the most high efficiency coil you could get, but take that electronic metering device off -- that coil comes off the same manufacturing line in the same dimensions / same configuration as any other evap coil. So it's not going to change the life in any significant way it will fail like any other coil due to refrigerant leaks.

The average span of forming a leak is 3 to 6 years any brand. If you make it to year 8-10 consider yourself lucky. (aluminum evap coils) --- once the freon leaks come there is no efficiency.

I had a carrier coil last year fail in less than 6 months. I've had Goodman coil fail in just under a year. I've seen Trane coils that failed in 2 years -- determined from serial number / house build info. // Lennox in under 3 years and replacement leaking again in about a year.

So you can argue efficiency all you want... the story isn't one that is going to end without replacing and fixing something. New equipment isn't like equipment of old. I replaced a Trane coil just last month that was 22 years old. I replaced a Carrier coil last year that was 21 years old. They don't make coils like that any more, in the name of efficiency.

I show a good number of these stories on my YouTube channel if you're one of these kinds of people who need to "see it" to believe it.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

OP: Run the complete systems quoted (condenser, coil, air handler/furnace, with model numbers) through the AHRI calculator. That's the only way to get a definitive assessment of system efficiency.

AHRI are systems and configurations tested and efficiency of such comprised and run from a labratory under labratory settings.

Read the fine print of the mfg warranty that comes with the equipment. AHRI provides no warranty of any kind. They don't even want you posting any of their info. it's a secret.

I wish I was making this up... it certainly sounds like it.

"AHRI are systems and configurations tested and efficiency of such comprised and run from a labratory (sic) under labratory (sic) settings." While they're not perfect simulations of installed conditions, tests performed in laboratories according to a standard protocol provide useful information about system performance. The reported efficiencies can be used by consumers to compare different equipment when making purchase decisions-- much like MPG is used for comparing the fuel efficiency of vehicles.

The change to SEER2 test protocols is an attempt to report operating efficiency data that better reflect real-world performance.

The change to SEER2 test protocols is an attempt to report operating efficiency data that better reflect real-world performance.

"an attempt" --- we'll make everything better by changing the formula when the real miracle is keeping the system properly charged with Freon. (refrigerant)

Without properly charged equipment there is no operating efficiency. Then throw in cleanliness, maintenance, filter changes --- the labratory is not even close to real world issues. Nice in theory though.

It's well known that laboratory tests are intended to simulate real-world operating conditions. Short of taking the test systems to a couple of hundred different homes and repeating the test, lab tests are a reasonable means of comparing the performance of a variety of systems. The limitation doesn't make the tests invalid nor compromise their usefulness for consumers shopping for HVAC equipment.

The test conditions for SEER and SEER2 measurements are do replicate real residential operating conditions in my opinion.

SEER evaluations were based on tests performed at 0.1" w.c. static pressure. Systems in the "real world" don't typically operate at such low pressure. SEER2 changes the test conditions to 0.5" w.c. which is more representative of real world conditions, but there are still limitations.

The problem with any efficiency rating is where you draw the system boundaries. SEER testing is performed with a relatively short duct work system in the lab. That's the system. If we take the same components out of the lab and connect them in a home with longer ductwork, we extend the system. If that larger system includes poorly designed and/or leaky ductwork, the overall system efficiency won't equal the SEER or SEER2 rating of the equipment. The bottom line is that SEER and SEER2 ratings are appropriate for comparing HVAC equipment the same way MPG is appropriate for comparing cars, but the consumers' actual "mileage" may (and probably will) vary.

My biggest issue with the SEER testing is the temperature are the outdoor bin temperatures. The energy used is a weighted average over 8 temperature bins. Here are the outdoor temperatures and the weighted average:

67°F----21.4%

72°F----23.1%

77°F----21.6%

82°F----16.1%

87°F----10.4%

92°F----5.2%

97°F----1.8%

102°F---.4%
-------------

Total = 100%
Note that the 3 lowest outdoor ambient temps (67°F, 72°F, and 77°F) make up over 66% of the value of the SEER calculation. How many people are operating their AC when the outdoor temperature is 67 of 72 F degrees? It is also not clear to me what are the rules for testing multistage equipment. I think that is left up to the manufacturer to decide and make the equipment perform as efficiently as possible.

This is the reason I often recommend looking at the EER or EER2 ratings when comparing efficiency of equipment.

The problem with EER is twofold, in my opinion: EER is determined at a single operating condition (95 F outdoor temp/80 F indoor temp @ 50% relative humidity.) You can draw quite a few different performance curves through a single point. Second, is an indoor temperature setpoint of 80 F at 50% r.h. all that relevant? I keep my thermostat set at 73 F or 74 F and target 50% relative humidity. SEER evaluation isn't perfect, but measuring performance over a range of operating conditions beats a single operating condition.

I agree the EER rating is not good either. But at least it is measured under conditions when most people would be operating their AC. Heat pumps provide a COP rating at two outside temperatures. The rating for an AC could use this same methodology. For example the efficiency operating at 80 F and 95 F degrees with an indoor setting at 75 F.

I think one of the reasons the SEER test measurements are so convoluted is that the HVAC industry had to devise a way for variable speed multistage equipment have higher performance ratings. If the more expensive equipment has only a marginal increase in SEER rating, then it would make it a more difficult to justify spending the extra money. It is more about marketing for high profit margin and less about equipment efficiency. Unfortunately many people will spend thousands of dollars to gain a 1 - 2 point increase in SEER or SEER2 rating. Yet they have no idea what is the actual annual cost savings.

My recent (May) bill with a 2-stage Trane XR17 installed Jan 2022 in a house built in 2004 is $156 for 1087 kWh (1 kWh less than May 2022).

My mother's with a variable-speed Lennox Elite installed in mid 2017 in a house built in the early 1970s is $108 for 694 kWh. The houses are both all-electric, of comparable size ~2,300 sq ft and 23-ish miles apart in the same climate zone. I have 9' and 10' ceilings, more/larger windows some of which face the west evening sun. She ran the cooling temp 74°F to 76°F. I had 75°F to 76°F (I increase the setpoint as the summer ambient increases through the season, to usually 78°F daytime). She washes/dries clothes more than I do (I don't wash until I get a full load, she'll run 5 pieces). She handwashes dishes through the day, I run the dishwasher every 2 to 4 days. She has two 50-gal water heaters, I have an electric tankless. I have a water well and septic, she's on city services. We both have two refrigerators (both of hers in the house, one of mine in the garage). She also has a chest freezer. I have two computers running continuously, she has one.

Like most things, improving the efficiency of HVAC systems is eventually subject to diminishing returns. What the higher-end systems offer--albeit at higher initial cost-- is better dehumidification, and improved comfort levels.