Here's another photo. There is some fragrance, not strong but nice.

My first thought was 'Manettii', but I can't imagine how 'Manettii' would end up as a body bag.

Here's another photo taken this morning. I appreciate your thoughts on this rose, Paul. I checked out Manetti as much as possible, but there doesn't seem to be much coming up on a search. In the latest photo, rose in front is older and starting to decline. However it isn't really showing a center though you can see the stamens if you part the petals. There are definitely thorns on the stems. I can't get good enough on line pictures to say yay or nay to Manetti. The thought did occur to me it could be a root stock rose, but as you say, how the tarnation did it get churned out in a Windmill container? That thought put to one side, I would like to figure out what this rose is. As can be seen, it is quite pretty. The flowers age well. They don't clump together and make a horrible mess. Do you think the seven leaflets indicate an Old Garden Rose?

Flowers don't age like the two pictures of Manetti I found on line. They both showed prominent gold center stamens in fully open flowers. This rose above doesn't reveal the stamens as it ages. The central petals stay curved, mostly covering stamens which aren't particularly golden in color.

Wow, Jackie! That is simply stunning! I thought most rootstocks were Dr. Huey, as well. Will go out and take a picture of the bud more clearly. What about the seven leaflets?

@dara_gardener-Vancouver Island, Z8

Don't be fooled by the flowers - they can be much more double in some climates. The foliage and other traits are far more useful as diagnostics. Those leaves are exactly how 'Manetti' appears, and foliage as distinct as that is very helpful in ID'ing a rose.

If it blooms later in the season, you will have valuable diagnostic information, as 'Manetti' flowers only once.

Okay, here is the bud showing. Do you need me to crop it closer? There is just a hint of yellow at base of petals, which can be seen in the bud. Otherwise the pink is a cool tone.

Thanks, Paul. I agree that the foliage is really distinctive. Good to know about the flowers. I'll keep an eye out for any repeat bloom. This is exciting! By the way, also in Windmill packaging this year, but sold at another store is 'Seven Sisters' which had 'Sexy Rexy' as it's supposed identity. I know Seven Sisters, so knew what that mistagged rose was.

This is what I meant by "frilly buds" :

https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.57195

Re the 7 leaflets - many old roses have 7 leaflets (or more!). That just means it is not a modern rose.

Jackie

Absoutely nothing like that, Jackie. These buds are roundish rather than long and pointed. As well, no huge clusters of buds either. I just bought this rose a few weeks ago. What you see is all there is to see regarding buds and flowers. Unless the rose reblooms later, this is it. If it does rebloom later, then it definitely isn't Manetti. There was no little topknot going on at the tips of the buds, nor did bud clusters fall to the side as in your pictured photo. The bud clusters looked like any normal floribunda buds.

If it reblooms, then its something else - probably from the Noisette group or Hybrid Musk group.

In any event, it is lovely, and you got a nice surprise. Pls let us know if it reblooms.

Jackie

You know, Jackie, I spent $50 on a modern shrub rose this spring. The rose is called 'Sultry Night'. It is absoutely horrible! Clean leaves and own root, but the stems flop to the ground, and all the flowers are crammed together so there is no room for anything to open properly. The flowers all rot before even opening. One of the worst roses I have ever seen. Then I spend $15 on the so called 'Pink Cascade' rose we are discussing here. Let's call it 'Pink Cluster' for the time being. By contrast, the Pink Cluster rose is lovely! All the stems grow upright like they're supposed to do. The flowers open in a cluster, but don't crowd each other. No flower rots before finishing. The plant is healthy and own root. Flower color is nice with the soft pink tones. It really makes you wonder what modern breeders are thinking when they produce the roses that are being marketed today. Sort of like, if the wheel isn't broken, don't fix it! I'll keep monitoring this pretty rose to see how it develops. As well, will check on Noisette and Hybrid Musk rose groups as Paul suggests, to see if anything clicks. Will keep you informed on going. Thank you both for your help.

Dara, thanks for your ththoughts on Sultry Night. I was giving it some serious consideration but the last thing I want is to not be able to enjoy the flowers! I saw it at a local nursery and it was floppy as you say.

Helen, I really wanted to like Sultry Night. Now it is a newly planted rose so I'm giving it a chance to improve, but honestly so far it is the worst rose in my garden! Not joking. The business of flowers rotting before opening is just awful. As soon as it was planted, two of the four stems flopped onto the ground where the flower clusters commenced opening while dragging in the dirt. The cluster on an upright stem opened exactly in the same manner which was squashed together, rotting before opening with say one partially open flower not rotted. An utter mess! Even my friend Bob who likes flowers but is no kind of rose expert, looked at it and shook his head. So I don't want to be negative about any plant, however at the moment Sultry Night is at the bottom of my like scale for roses. Especially while being contrasted with that little pretty pink rose which is doing beautifully!

https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.774.2

Guess what? I checked out Noisette rose and the first one to pop up was this link to 'Blush Cluster' rose. That looks pretty close to exactly like my Pink Cluster rose! Tentatively I'm going to say that is it. Let me know what you think. Also Champney's Pink Cluster and Belle Noisette. I'm not sure if the last one is a separate rose. They all look similar, and all look like my rose.

Here is a picture of Sultry Night, Helen. I've cut off the two flopped canes which reduced the entire rose size by close to half. This is a flower cluster on an upright cane. Do you see how unattractive it is? None of those finished flowers opened. They just partially opened then rotted. Compare that mess to the Pink Cluster rose above. It's flowers cluster together, but don't crowd each other. Every flower stays nice until it is finished. I'm just shaking my head at what the breeder of Sultry Night was thinking. How could he market this rose?

Dara, your problems with Sultry Night remind me of my problem with Huddersfield Choral Society. I WANT it to be a good rose-such unusual colour!-but so far there's been so much balling and scorching that I can't enjoy it. It is in it's 2nd year, but is an own-root that is literally only 2 years old (it roots very easily), and we did have a very wet May/early June. So I'm hoping that with age it will improve...

About 'Sultry Night': I am getting the impression that some people don't understand what it is and what its for. One of its parents is 'Sweet Chariot' - a Ralph Moore rose that is a lax Polyantha type (bred from multiflora). The best examples of 'Sweet Chariot' I ever saw were grown in hanging baskets and it cascaded down out of the pot in a glorious purple fountain. It can be spectacular when used in a way that takes advantage of its growth habit.

So it comes as no surprise (to me) that 'Sultry Night' has a similar growth habit: inclined to grow horizontally (especially when young - these Polyantha types need a couple of years to build up wood to a point where they present well as a self-supporting shrub) and tending to be "floppy" as youngsters. Being a Polyantha in pedigree, it is going to produce dense clusters of blooms, just as you've described. I suppose that is another person's way of saying "crowded".

You state that your plant of 'Sultry Night' is new in your garden, so I recommend that you give it at least another year to settle in and start performing as it should. No rose should be judged before its been in your garden for 2 years (preferably three, IMO). I suspect you will find its a much better rose than your early impressions suggest.

bart bart, I empathize with your struggles in growing Huddersfield Choral Society rose. It is very frustrating when we grow a rose to enjoy the flowers, and those highly anticipated blossoms don't open properly. It is such a disappointment. My attitude is to keep trying until you have had enough. At that point, the rose becomes more of a liability than asset to your peace of mind. I would also remind everyone that rain isn't necessarily the cause of a rose flower not opening. Here in Nanaimo, we had no rain all of May. So far, June has had one modest rainy day with no rain at all otherwise. So rotting rose flowers here are not caused by wet conditions.

Lax canes can definitely be a result of a rose not yet developing the root system to support stronger, more upright growth. Too tight flower clusters can also be a result of that.

Meet Bouquet Parfait. The first couple of years I grew it, it also produced clusters of flowers so tight that the last ones couldn't open until the first had been deadheaded. Then it grew up, and now it produces large, well spaced clusters.

Listen to Paul, and give the thing time.

You might like Celestial Night. It is a nice upright plant with lots of gorgeous blooms

I agree with Paul and mad_gallica - no rose should ever be judged regarding habit, blooms (including color!), size, health, or anything else until it is MATURE. Some roses take longer than others - all should be given at least 2 years in the ground. Your rose is a tiny baby, and it makes as much sense to judge it now as it would if you judged a 6 month old child and complained that the child could not walk or run! Patience is a virtue, especially with roses.

Two of my most favorite roes in the world, Belle Portugaise and de la Grifferaie, each took FIVE YEARS growing before they bloomed for the first time! Since then they have bloomed each year without fail. Of course, they are both very old once blooming roses which get huge, so I suspect they were waiting until they had achieved a proper size. Modern roses seem to be bred to bloom immediately, which can trick anyone into thinking they are mature when they are not.

Jackie

Jackie, I've been thinking about what you said regarding roses needing to establish roots in order to do well. This sparked a memory about Sultry Night rose. As I recall, when taking it out of its three gallon pot, the rose was not at all established in the pot. It looked to be one of those roses that for whatever reason, hadn't put roots into much of the potted soil. I filled the planting hole using a mixture of soil from its pot and a good soil mix I use to plant roses. So this reflects to your comment. Likely my specimen of SN is younger than its pot would indicate, or more worryingly, isn't inclined to produce roots robustly. This certainly could contribute to aborting the flowers as has been happening. Thanks for mentioning about the roots. I had forgotton the condition this rose was in when planting. Nonetheless, I still am extremely disappointed in the rose. But understanding about the roots helps. Now the little Noisette rose from Walmart, purchased in a gallon container, is doing very well.

Okay.

I've cut all the flowers off Sultry Night rose. With the idea that the roots need to be better established to support flower production, let's see if this helps. There are new leaves and even a new flowering stem growing. I will observe and see how that goes.

Time will help it - what you did was a good idea, but if I were you I would not do anything else to it except normal watering for at least a year or two before I "evaluated" it again.

Jackie

Time will help. What you did was fine, but if I were you I would not do anything to or with it except normal watering for at least a year or two before I "evaluated" it.

Jackie

IMO that plant was over-priced! From your description of the roots, I'd say it's no wonder that the rose can't bloom properly! I think Jackie makes an excellent point saying that " Modern roses seem to be bred to bloom immediately, which can trick anyone into thinking they are mature when they are not." I think this trait also tends to make them -or at least some of them-kind of slow to really get established; they are distracted from growing as plants by the fact that they are so compelled to bloom. Moreover, it seems to me that roses can be very "individualistic" ; not all Teas behave the same way, nor do all floribundas, nor do all Hybrid Perps, etc, etc, etc. Not even all ramblers! For example,both Alexandre Girault and Henri Barruet are Wichuranas,but IME AGirault is much more vigorous than HBarruet.

@dara_gardener-Vancouver Island, Z8 The whole mislabeling of "big box store" roses is hardly a recent phenomenon. Many times when I was a teenager (more years ago than I care to acknowledge) I bought bagged bare root grafted roses and about half the time they were not correctly labeled. This has been a persistent problem in that sector of the industry for decades. I don't think its any worse than it used to be, nor is it any better.

Paul Barden, I am noticing it more than in the past especially this year. From the look of it, a good portion of the potted roses in that Windmill brand are not the rose stated on the pot. As mentioned to you, Seven Sisters has come in under Sexy Rexy labeling. Nine plants! That isn't an occasional mistake. It is entirely deliberate. Then there is my so called Red Peace which is who knows what. Then the pretty pink noisette above. At this point, it's feeling like if you get the rose that is listed on the lable, you have been lucky!

@dara_gardener-Vancouver Island, Z8 The most important information you've presented is this: avoid the "Windmill" brand at all costs. The percentage of errors you've documented is shocking. Such an egregious and no doubt intentional misrepresentation of product.

I will say I am OK with getting a small rose I can grow up from a baby. It is really a thrill and I do not feel ripped off. Some of these are rarities there is no mass market for. Because of this, I feel we are rose rescuers of some of these treasures.

I would rather take care of the plant here, than have it spend it's babyhood in the orphanage of the plant nursery. OTOH, I would find it hard to ship plants out, were I the nurseryman, to some newbie who did not know what they were doing.

I remember Burling sending me plants that were so small she tried to refund my money. They grew fine (ALMD and Moyesii) and are in my garden today.

I realize some are looking for a faster plant and I can understand that too.

I don't buy roses very often these days (there are still about 1500 surviving unique cultivars out in the acre of brambles that once was a rose garden), but for nostalgic reasons this spring, I bought a plant of 'Fragrant Cloud', and its done well in a big pot. Last week I had half a dozen 6" intensely fragrant blooms. Out of curiosity I went to look at the label to see who had produced the plant, and guess what? It was Windmill! *laughs* The first "box store" rose I have bought in nearly twenty years and it was actually the correct variety, coming from a manufacturer that has a reputation for mislabeling roses. Go figure.

I bought two Gene Boerners from Home Depot in February. I don't make a habit of buying roses from HD, but Gene is hard to find nowadays from reputable sources. They were from Windmill. I didn't keep the tags so I could see the back, but I took a pic at the time, and enlarged them on my computer just now, and saw the same logo of the boy giving a rose to a girl. The smaller one died, but the larger one survived, and is indeed Gene Boerner. So sometimes they're correct :-D

I may be the lucky one. My Heirloom, Gene Boerner, Iceberg, Lady X, Whisky Mac, and Crimson Glory bought from box stores are all true to the names. Except for Iceberg, they're all from Windmill.

" I, on the other hand, did today exactly what you told me NOT to do and purchased another mislabeled Windmill rose."

Now hang on a minute. I did not tell anyone what they should or should not do. That is far too literal an interpretation of my statement that Windmill brand should probably be avoided if accurate naming is of importance to you. I'm not in the habit of telling people what to do. Please don't make it look as if I do.

Updates on the mystery pink cluster rose. I see new buds forming, while the older flowers are making very decorative round shaped hips. Jacqueline, I am watching one flower open on Sultry Night rose. You remember I cut off all the lax stems, as well as all the flower trusses that weren't opening. This is the first flower to actually open on this rose. By the end of day, it was looking worse for the wear. Does have a nice fragrance.

Here is Sultry Night with it's first open flower. Still doesn't impress me much. Clean leaves and good fragrance are the strengths so far.

Here's Sultry Night on the same day as above, early evening.

So back to the mystery rose. It is repeat flowering, which likely means it isn't an antique rose even though there are seven leaflets and it is making very good hips. Otherwise I would call it a Noisette rose. Whatever it is, the plant is a lovely rose with pretty, scented flowers, a nice shape to the plant, completely clean leaves and very vigorous.

I am having quite an enjoyable time with all these mislabled roses from Windmill. Once I accepted the reality that the roses weren't what the labels said they were, it became a treasure hunt to see exactly what was growing in these pots. So far I have the pink cluster rose above, as well as a lovely pink polyantha type groundcover rose that looks very much like a miniature Dorothy Perkins. As well there is a semi-double red rose that is growing leaves like gangbusters. There is Seven Sisters, another polyantha climber with mauve flowers. Then the red rose that might be an Explorer type. Great fun watching these plants grow and reveal their characteristics.

Could anyone post a good picture of the Windmill label? I wonder who is supplying these roses to Win mill or if they graft them themselves?

Vaporvac, there is a picture a few posts back on this thread of the Windmill brand roses still in their pots. As to grafting, I make a point in only buying own root roses if at all possible. Which is one reason I ended up buying roses from this brand. Many were growing own root. The brand is marketed to big box stores like Walmart, Lowes, Rona and Canadian Tire here in Canada. It's really hilarious to see the names and pictures on the rose pots such as Sexy Rexy which is peach when the actual rose in the pot is mauve with many small polyantha blooms, and is in fact Seven Sisters. Fortunately I know that rose so could identify it from the flower. The mystery rose of this post was marketed as 'Pink Cascade'. At least they got the color right. The pretty pink groundcover rose now flowering in my garden was called 'Red Cascade'. Here they likely got the growth type accurate as in a groundcover rose, but the color is wrong. The semi-double red doing so well in my garden was called 'Red Peace' rose. Nothing to do with a Peace rose, but very healthy and due to it's health, not Dr. Huey either.