Austin, the compressor that they installed in 2019 is a Copeland ScrollTM UltraTechTM Two-Stage Compressor 38.4K - 51K BTUH.

theclose, I just checked my service records of a customer who had two of these Bryant 2 speed machines. They would have been manufactured in around 2008 time period. They were two stage Bristol compressors both failed eventually. I started servicing his home in 2011 time period and in 2015 I replaced both of them installed Goodman 2 stage. (So my guess is Bryant changed compressors manufacturers at some point, probably due to? too many failures.)

Goodman has copeland 2 speed compressors-- it might be similar to what you say above or some variation thereof. He's had a few problems since but no compressor failures (mostly minor maintenance related issues). Goodman has a ton of controls to protect those compressors as they are covered by "life time warranty"

That warranty doesn't cover labor, freight, refrigerant, handling and possibly other charges. So just because a part is under warranty doesn't mean it's free. (read the fine print of the warranty certificate)

I tell you this so that you understand this situation is "not likely" to be the fault of the compressor manufacturer. Something is causing these failures. (Improper installation isn't covered by any warranty reasons are such as this: catastrophic failure X 2.

(in case someone reads this thread well into the future...)

So what ends this lifetime compressor warranty? the cost of refrigerant. They hold a lot of refrigerant. If price of said refrigerant goes to $XXXX it's almost a give that a new unit using a different refrigerant will be a better choice. (for clarity that time isn't just yet but it's coming soon. 2025.)

Thank you all for responding.

mike, we are in the northeast, just outside NYC. We use a/c from end of May or June until end of Sept. or Oct. We keep the house at 70 during the day and 67 at night. The compressor is still under warranty but my 10 year Bryant warranty ends next month. I am not sure what warranty, if any, this new compressor will have. Of course, we still have to pay labor and refrigerant, which is very costly in my area. In 2019, our bill for labor ($225/hr) and refrigerant (full refill necessary at $87 per can) was $1900. Ridiculous. This year labor is up to $245/hr. I am not looking forward to the bill next week. I did speak to the supervisor and voiced my concerns on the install issue. So they are going to send a senior tech, junior tech to assist, and the field supervisor is going to come to inspect. I am not sure what else I can do.

klem, I agree. I want to get to the source of the issue. So hard to do!

austin, hopefully this compressor will last longer than 4 years. At that point, I will most likely be ready for a new system (the system turns 10 next month). And boy do I know that warranty doesn't mean free!

austin, hopefully this compressor will last longer than 4 years. At that point, I will most likely be ready for a new system (the system turns 10 next month). And boy do I know that warranty doesn't mean free!

theclose, Yeah not what I would consider fun. I have had failures (not compressors for the most part) and not typically a problem I created. 99.9% of those I catch during install.

I've had only 1 compressor failure (under part warranty) in condenser that I installed originally. If I had compressor failures that often I wouldn't have the time to post like I do on this board. The compressor was 7 years old at time of failure that was about 3 years ago.

Another 1 I had fail maybe 11-12 years ago was under a builder warranty for Lennox (installed by builder) it was a copeland back in that day. Lennox uses all kinds of cheap compressors now in entry level machines... any way that one failed again a little over a year later. I cut it appart / there was a defect in a valve a pinched washer that had become dislodged (no to low pumper it wasn't shorted.)

But at that point the home owner decided to replace unit (2015). I made modification changes to line set (copper tubes) that run inside to coil. The had some other issues with a leaking coil a few years later. I haven't been there in around 6 years.

Typically compressor short to ground problems are due to acids forming within the refrigerant. Those acids then eat the protective layer covering the electrical windings of the compressor, and viola you have a short to ground. Acids can form due to moisture in refrigeration system (improper evacuation) heat related to improper system refrigerant charge / possibly combination of improper oil return. (compressor runs hot -- related to discharge temperature of the compressor.)

Throw in 2 speed compressor --- and complications only increase. These are some of the best built compressors in the world from Copeland (Emerson) in my opinion and most of the time are well protected by safeties of the machine that are controlled by unit circuit board inside the condenser. The ones I've had fail on me were low end entry level machines. (2 different locations) in 15 years in a hot 10 month use climate. (The more you use it, you should expect more failures... but not every 4 years)

theclose, Hopefully they get it right this time. (realisitically the new compressor should last at least 10 years with proper annual maintenance performed.)

I service the Katy, Texas area.

theclose,

I probably live within an hour drive of your location. I am very familiar with your cooling season. You keep your theromstat lower than mine, but you did not wear out these two compressors.

I would give the installer the benefit of the doubt on the first compressor. Carrier and Bryant had problems with compressors in that era. However the second compressor failure was due to an installation problem in my opinion. On top of that your installer has been doing annual preventative maintainence. The failure was not due to neglect assuming the tech did his job properly on each visit.

If I were in your position, I would tell the installer you should not have to pay to rectify the installer's mistakes. Ask the installer to cover the labor cost and Bryant will cover the part cost. I sugggest saying you will pay no out of pocket cost. You may as a sign of good faith negotiate paying for refrigerant. If it gets to that cap it at some fixed value you think is fair. If necessary put this in writing in an email or letter to the installer.

If I were in your position, I would tell the installer you should not have to pay to rectify the installer's mistakes. Ask the installer to cover the labor cost and Bryant will cover the part cost. I sugggest saying you will pay no out of pocket cost.

poor thinking to suggest getting into an argument over money, then further cripple them with no more money for the sake of suggesting that no more money will encourage them to "magically" install it properly now... with no money? (if they didn't install it properly the last time of which we're not 100% certain, how could we be from a forum board?)

If they agreed to that Mike_home how likely is it that the new compressor would last even 4 more years again? (if they were truly at fault? Which we don't know 100%) There's a reason AC units come with a lengthy part warranty period. Parts do fail, compressors do fail.

The unit is luckily still under part warranty. "IF" they fix it again to last another 4 or 5 years, choose a different company the next time and stop getting yourself wrapped up in money related non-sense. (Just because these compressors rarely fail doesn't necessarily mean it was this companies fault. Brown-outs and power surges could do it in time.)

Unless you're 100% certain -- the path over money is a treacherous one for more than one reason.

Give them one more shot, with the idea that this next compressor must have a lengthy life to continue using this particular company. Getting yourself in a money related tussle isn't going to end well. Failures are a part of this business and bad things do occasionally happen.

That being said: "Larger companies often say they are sending a senior tech" -- how senior is senior? If the company only requires 1 year experience a senior tech could be 2 or 3 years on the job. In a more mild climate like New Jersey? nothing in comparison to my climate of 10 months. Breaking 100+ records (days in a row) like clock work right now.

I can't tell you how many times I'm called to a disgruntled fight over money vs. installing contractor and the owner of the property ---often times I am expected to fix it for little or next to nothing. Poor and illogical thinking... I am in business to do it for you yes, but a 30 year vet like me is 9 times out of 10 coming with a premium attached the more pitiful the mess is I am called to fix. (It's best to call me first before you go with a deal of the century type idea)

My logic why some of this kind of nonsense exists is probably related to a home owner some where suggesting foolish things about making certain demands to fix something for no money. Then wonder why you are in the position to begin with? Don't make the matter worse than it is now. Not a good idea by any stretch of the imagination.

I bend over backwards for those that entrust me with their cooling problems sight unseen, but the situation has to be fair to me as well. I will tell you what is fair, not you. (depends on a wide variety of criteria and doesn't always mean completely free. I have done occasional freebies because I felt it was warranted and the customer(s) were such where they listened to me / my suggestions without any flack.)

Not an easy job, getting harder every passing day. (Some of it -- related to foolish demands from an internet warrior on the web.)

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Ray,

HVAVC techs in work 10 months in a year just like you. Except it‘s 4 months for cooling calls and 6 months of heating calls. The heating calls are far more urgent than cooling. There is a shortage of HVAV techs in the NYC area. I assure you very few are sitting around drinking coffee all day.

I gather this is a large company and not a one man operation like yourself. The company can decide what they should do to make it right for their customer of 10 years. I am trying to give advice to a fellow homeowner. If you disagree then that’s fine.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to negotiate the price with the installing contractor given it's the second replacement compressor and the fact that the OP pays for preventive maintenance. What gets agreed to is up to the two parties to work out.

Ray,

HVAVC techs in work 10 months in a year just like you. Except it‘s 4 months for cooling calls and 6 months of heating calls. The heating calls are far more urgent than cooling. There is a shortage of HVAV techs in the NYC area. I assure you very few are sitting around drinking coffee all day.

heating isn't the same thing as air conditioning Mike_home.

There is a shortage of technicians: yeah because people want to argue over what they think is fair in the money dept.

So arguing over money is going to solve the technician shortage problem how? Who is going to take the time necessary to "learn the right way" in a "trade school" -- not tiktok academy... all so they have the priveledge of working for no money?

Clearly this plan of yours wasn't well thought out....

Now let the argument shift again. Keep your eyes on the bouncing ball....

Large companies fail all the time. (Then cry some more about the tech shortage) -- both are money related 9 times out of 10.

(a builder walks in -- 1-2 years tops and they are out of the equation... Mr. Charles "I don't purchase refrigerant" Ross Homes.) --- can't replace a compressor without refrigerant Charles. But if everything looks like a nail to you... sure a builder should be your top choice. ha, ha.

Ray,

You've registered your opinion as a one-man service company. The OP isn't dealing with one of those, so I'm not sure how relevant your perspective is. The issue of labor availability in the OP's market isn't relevant either; they have a service company willing and available to perform the work. The issue is the cost to perform the service. That needs to be negotiated between the parties.

Of course, we still have to pay labor and refrigerant, which is very costly in my area. In 2019, our bill for labor ($225/hr) and refrigerant (full refill necessary at $87 per can) was $1900. Ridiculous. This year labor is up to $245/hr. I am not looking forward to the bill next week. I did speak to the supervisor and voiced my concerns on the install issue. So they are going to send a senior tech, junior tech to assist, and the field supervisor is going to come to inspect.

According to the OP, the labor rate has recently gone up $20/hr to $245/hr with this company.

Charles, given your bean counter mentality what would that tell you?

They sending not 1, but 3 people to do this 1 man job. All 3 of those people get paid or they quit to work somewhere else. Let's not think about those in the office that get those 3 people to that job. (more money). The accountants doing the books? more money. The manager who keeps the operation going. more money. The service vehicles that get those techs (helpers & supervisor) to this location. The commercial insurance needed in case one of them gets into a wreck while on the way there. more money.

The value of a 1 man operation in a nutshell.

The reason you won't like it or the reason you'll love it? Choices.

There are one man operations in the NYC area, just as much as everywhere else.

Bean counter math: 3 people at 4 hours (4x 245 = 735 x 3 = 2205)

1 person 4x 245 = 735

Or the bigger company with bigger expenses loses the productivity of 2 people who could be somewhere's else bringing in money... they give you two people for no extra money.

(note: this equation isn't to suggest I would change out a compressor for *ONLY* 735. There are more costs than just labor... but this labor component would be accurate even for my area.)

Continued non billable hours of personnel --- is a sinking ship, no matter how many techs there are. Simple 3rd grade bean counter math.

With all that said I use flat rate pricing: You would know exactly what the cost would be if you chose me to do the work. *no surprises 9 times out of 10* -- this goes back to the value equation. I know what I am doing, just as much as I know what not to do.

I worked for big HVAC company so I know very well how they operate. I also wore the hat of senior tech, supervisor --- or whatever adjective they could think of to title me with. Most of the time I was considered an HVAC service tech. Before I got my Texas state HVAC license. (tiktok wasn't involved in any of it. LOL)

This provides you with context... that's all. You the reader choose what you want.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

The mechanical contractor needs to make a business decision about the price of the service. He'll need to weigh whatever he might make on the particular service call against the potential future work garnered by a goodwill gesture. That future work may include not only replacement of the OP's system when it reaches the end of its useful life, but also work for others generated by word-of-mouth advertising from a happy customer.

LOL. If I listened to promises of what people say they will do in the future?

Nice in theory, proven it doesn't work.... (click to enlarge HVAC failure picture)

Note: There's other statistics that paint "some what" different pictures... there's reasons why I chose the statistics I chose to illustrate this point.

Promises in this business are mostly broken, just like your poor AC as it were. Ask me how I know vs. the builder?

I actually do HVAC service and repair, the builder does not. (Mr. I don't purchase refrigerants.)

The OP isn't dealing with a new HVAC start-up company. Nor are they dealing with a one-man show. The company the OP is dealing with is a multi-person firm which replaced their compressor 4 years ago under warranty. Now they are replacing it again. I doubt discounting the labor rate will have a material effect on the company owner's standard of living, but it's their business decision, not yours or mine.

heating isn't the same thing as air conditioning Mike_home.

Ray,

I agree with you. If someone's AC stops working, they can be uncomfortable in a warm house for as long as it takes for a service tech to arrive and attempt to make a repair. If a furnace, boiler, or heat pump stops working, you have about 24 hours before pipes start to freeze and burst. No heat calls are treated as much higher priority in the NYC area.

There is a shortage of technicians: yeah because people want to argue over what they think is fair in the money dept.

There is a shortage of HVAC techs because fewer people want to learn a trade. The shortage is not due to low pay. In many states electricians make more money per hour than grade school teachers.

In this case, I am confident the HVAC tech will get the same hourly wage for the number of hours it will take to replace the compressor. The business owner has to make a decision what is a fair share with the homeowner on the labor and materials cost to replace the compressor a second time.

Any way you slice it op is taking it in the shorts unless mfgr,contractor or both go above and beyond to share loss. IMO op has shown loyalty to both mfgr and contractor thereby deserves special treatment in my book. I've lived by that philosophy for decades and facts are (A) My customers and I were spared a lot of stress (B) My customers got what the paid for and I was paid well for doing it. (C) Time is money whether you are paying or being paid so time not spent aurging,making bids,comparing bids, asking questions you wouldn't understand answers to , soliciting work ,soliciting contractors and other things average people do is money saved by both parties to be spent elsewhere. My policy was if I can't fix it or tell you what's wrong you owe me nothing "UNLESS EXCEPTION IS MADE GOING IN". Don't you know I had plenty people wanting me to work for them when they heard about that policy? That's why I never worked for anyone unless they were on my client list. The only segment of business I failed to attain my goal with was multi-family housing because that industry will not get onboard 100%. On the other hand small time investors in real-estate sales and rentals were premium clients. I am retired but my name is on vehicles around select construction sites. Many calls come in from people seeing those vehicles or hearing through word of mouth about quality of workmanship but like before, we don't want the work unless you are on client list. Never a dime spent for advertising in over 50 years in business. Are there complaints ? Yes but rarly do they go unresolved and never result in lingering distrust or dis-satisfaction. Sometimes that requires additional material and labor without additional charge BUT we insist complaints be supported by terms of contract,plans,code inspection or other unambiguous source. More often than not there's additional charge when complaint is shown to be unfounded because we don't want people getting the habit of complaining before knowing for certain what they are complaining about.

In op's shoe's I'd hire a new contractor if current one doesn't share the loss.

In this case, I am confident the HVAC tech will get the same hourly wage for the number of hours it will take to replace the compressor.

If they are part of a union, sure. But what do unions do to prices? Outside of unions there is no hourly wage you speak of, it is primarily commission or piece work. A set amount for doing a specific task -- why you suppose I used a 4 hour labor rate for changing a compressor?

If the company is time + material some one better skilled changes the compressor in 2.5 hours because they have performed the operation many times. But at 2.5 hours they bring in less money than an unskilled rookie because he may take 4 hours or more.

Many ways to slice up this story... I know there are trade unions in NYC area, none in Texas that I am aware of.

If a tech is paid $300 to replace a compressor. It takes 4 hours plus drive time (say an hour there and hour back total 6 hours) the tech makes $50 an hour before tax etc.

If that same tech is paid $300 to replace a compressor -- due to skill it take him 2.5 hours + drive time of 1 hour each way for total of 4.5 hours little over $66 an hour.

Under time and material the skilled tech makes less under an hourly wage, also brings in less for the company. (There's no motivation to become "skilled" under this type of pay arrangement.)

Yet another key why techs may be in short supply? Let's argue.

Ray,

I am not aware of any HVAC service companies using unionized labor in the NYC area. These are typically small privately owned companies of less than 10 employees. I don't own an HVAC business but I would expect a tech to be paid a fixed hourly wage plus benefits for a 40 hour work week. I don't think HVAC companies in the NYC area can be successful paying their techs as day laborers.

In op's shoe's I'd hire a new contractor if current one doesn't share the loss.

klem1,

As a former HVAC business owner, it is nice to hear you believe the installer should bear some responsibility. I can see why you were able to be successful for 50 years in the HVAC business.

Ok. A small update. The two guys have been here all day and still have not finished the job. Not sure why or what is going on but I will find out soon enough, I suppose. The field supervisor stopped by and we had a chat about possible causes of the compressor failures and who should shoulder the financial burden. He agreed that this is unusual and said "all it can really be at this point is contaminants in the line-set". I added that it could also be poor installation. He said it was possible... Anyway, once this gets fixed, he said he will work with me on cost and not to worry, etc. He ended with "I'm confident the price will be less than you think it should be". I had told him I shouldn't pay anything so that's hard to achieve unless they are going to be paying me! I will update with the resolution.

Oh and the field supervisor, at one point in the convo, said maybe I should contact Copeland and see what they can do, maybe it is their issue. What?! I said that is what he should do, not me.

Anyway, I am hoping they resolve this satisfactorily and that once my warranty is up, I can move on from them to another company. While I would love to still stay with them, I have lost confidence in their techs, as well as their customer service system - there are too many layers now between the customer and someone that actually knows what they are doing. I don't like having to complain all the time to get the right thing done.

"Oh and the field supervisor, at one point in the convo, said maybe I should contact Copeland and see what they can do, maybe it is their issue. "

Sounds like he's trying to weazel out of his "should cost less than you expect" claim already!

Anyway, once this gets fixed, he said he will work with me on cost and not to worry, etc. He ended with "I'm confident the price will be less than you think it should be".

The new compressor is being installed by two techs, it is taking more than a day, a field supervisor is standing around chatting with you, and you have not been provided a quote on the cost?

Ok. A small update. The two guys have been here all day and still have not finished the job. Not sure why or what is going on but I will find out soon enough, I suppose. The field supervisor stopped by and we had a chat about possible causes of the compressor failures and who should shoulder the financial burden. He agreed that this is unusual and said "all it can really be at this point is contaminants in the line-set".

Ok I take back everything nice I said about this particular company. Two guys all day to replace a compressor? absurd. This is a clown show operation.

Contaminants in the line set? left there by inept techs.

-----------------------------

HVAC union in NYC: covers all buroughs of NYC plus Long Island. click to enlarge

Given what I now know I'm surprised this last compressor lasted 4 years.

If a so called "senior" tech with a helper can not replace a compressor in 4 hours something is proverbially wrong...

---------------

how techs are paid... under an hourly pay scheme this is the only way it works:

The new compressor is being installed by two techs, it is taking more than a day, a field supervisor is standing around chatting with you, and you have not been provided a quote on the cost?

Intro to how to ride the clock so company makes more money.

HVAC union in NYC: covers all buroughs of NYC plus Long Island. click to enlarge

Yes Ray, if you have to hire a steamfitter to do work in your home in the NYC area the techs may be unionized labor.

Intro to how to ride the clock so company makes more money.

Can you elaborate in this case how this HVAC company is making more money doing this repair?

It could be a concerted attempt to increase the billable hours on a job or it might instead be incompetence on the part of the installers. My money is on the latter.

Customer suffers consequences either way and contractor is paid money he didn't earn. In view of this contractor having a bad smell about him at the onset I have a two part question. For op,does your mfgr's warranty say you must use original installer for warranty to be valid? For the crowd, do you know of any mfgr's warranty that requires using installer for warranty work?

Can you elaborate in this case how this HVAC company is making more money doing this repair?

by their modus operandi. They are doing the work without giving a final price up front.

They are charging by the hour for labor. I've told you mike_home already in this thread as well as other places on this board the only way this arrangement works for the company is that they hire those who know very little. (takes longer to do every task) It's not that hard if you think about it?

If you give a quote (a hard one with final price) and you're there all day? They call it bankruptcy.

Maybe their conscious gets to them on this one call and they offer a break, but use the argument that these techs were there all day. (have pitty on us) -- the modus operandi extends beyond this call? uh, yeah. call it a trademark if you want.

It's preposterous to suggest you need a union for steam fitters and another one for air conditioning. (They make up the same union) -- you said one didn't exist -- I showed you one and you go off on a new spree of foolish arguments. The modus operandi of a keyboard warrior on houzz. Let's argue.

Ray,

As I stated in my earlier posts, small HVAC companies who service residential heating and cooling systems in the NYC don't employ unionized labor. It is not preposterous to have several union workers working side by side for the same employer at the same location. This is a common practice within large companies. I don't understand stand how this discussion helps the original poster replace his compressor at a fair price.

They are doing the work without giving a final price up front. They are charging by the hour for labor.

Where in the previous posts does it state the HVAC installer is charging for labor by the hour? Are you assuming this because a written fixed quote was not provided at the beginning?

Where in the previous posts does it state the HVAC installer is charging for labor by the hour?

[quote] mike, we are in the northeast, just outside NYC. We use a/c from end of May or June until end of Sept. or Oct. We keep the house at 70 during the day and 67 at night. The compressor is still under warranty but my 10 year Bryant warranty ends next month. I am not sure what warranty, if any, this new compressor will have. Of course, we still have to pay labor and refrigerant, which is very costly in my area. In 2019, our bill for labor ($225/hr) and refrigerant (full refill necessary at $87 per can) was $1900. Ridiculous. This year labor is up to $245/hr.

[end quote]

From a post from the op directed at you mike. But you're a home owner you can't be bothered with keeping things straight or actually reading posts directed at you can you?

What does it say mike?... labor is up this year to $245/hr.

Let's not read, let's argue. *Spin me wide round, like a record baby.*

mmm foot for breakfast.

Update: I was provided an approximate quote before work started of $1200. I balked at that, knowing they charge labor by the hour. Regardless, I am hoping they stay true to their word of "working with me" on cost. I hope it's less than $1k but we shall see. Right now I am about to call them about when they are returning.

The deal is the techs that were here the other day said there is a problem with the plug, as in the new compressor doesn't come with the actual plug. They said last install in 2019 just cobbled the wires together (including using a red wire when a yellow one should have been used, or vice versa) and they think that maybe using an actual plug that it would protect the wiring and connection to the compressor. They needed to order the plug.

The field supervisor said they were taking a long time to make sure they have everything done correctly. Who knows. In 2019 they were done in 3 hours. I don't plan on paying for all the labor b/c that's insane. They showed me an invoice if they were to charge me for the whole day on Tuesday - over $3k. Whatever.

As you probably know, they have to do a full refill of refrigerant, so that's a pretty penny as well. This whole thing is ridiculous.

klem, not sure I have to use the install company for the warranty to stick but with the new compressor, it's only 1 year anyway. I don't plan on sticking around with them to find out. Once this debacle is over, I will investigate the warranty further so that if anything goes wrong, I will be armed with the info.

Thank you all for your insights! I will keep you posted.

Ray,

I know the labor rate for this installer is $245. There was no mention of either paying a fixed price or an hourly rate until the original author posted this:

Update: I was provided an approximate quote before work started of $1200.

So let's calculate the labor costs for far. Two techs working 8 hours each at $245 an hour is $3,920 for the first day. The techs are coming back a second day with the "plug" so let's add an hour each one and that is another $490 got a total of $4,410. The we have to add R410a refrigerant. Ray, as you know I'm just a homeowner and I don't know how many pounds of refrigerant are needed for a compressor exchange. What would you estimate we should add for that cost? Do you think $800 is enough? Also what other materials should be added? Do you think $5300 wil cover everything? Don't forget the NYC sales tax of 8.875% which adds another $470.38, making it a grand total of $5,770.38.

At these prices you could fly Ray in from Katy, Texas, but him up at a Hilton and have him do the repair correctly. Ray could also make a video of the whole trip and still do it in less time than these two techs. I can't wait to hear what the final price will be and the explanaton behind it.

Nice in theory Mike, but I am not licensed to do HVAC work in NYC.

I am licensed for HVAC in Texas, we are in a broiling heat wave here -- what you expect my customers to do if I were to galavant across the country?

Makes no sense what you suggest, Mike.

(more to it than only money -- but we argue on this board more over money than anything else.)

If they charging an hourly rate with only approximate quotes, the quote can change for any reason. That is not flat rate pricing.

Ray,

Don't let the broiling heat affect your sense of humor. Given where this is headed I made the suggestion in jest. I really don't think the original author would put you up in a Hilton. Maybe a Motel 6, but certainily not a Hilton.

Mike, My sense of humor is fine I just didn't find what you said funny.

I have no real preference over accommodations other than a safe neighborhood. I'm not really into the fine dining, and fine accommodations scene.

That however doesn't do anything to solve the short leash I have on myself here in Katy, Texas. As well as any licensing concerns out side of Texas.

Still no let up in sight to the heat here. Little over half way to the record in 2011. (it's almost always hot here) -- heck I thought last year was hotter than this year (so far) -- the heat maybe taking it's toll. Who knows?

Update: I was provided an approximate quote before work started of $1200. I balked at that, knowing they charge labor by the hour. Regardless, I am hoping they stay true to their word of "working with me" on cost. I hope it's less than $1k but we shall see. Right now I am about to call them about when they are returning.

The deal is the techs that were here the other day said there is a problem with the plug, as in the new compressor doesn't come with the actual plug.

theclose, The $1200 is probably break even for them maybe a slight loss with 2 techs there all day plus a supervisor to come chat with you. The warranty just gives them a part, but compressors are often charged freight charge from mfg. that charge could be couple hundred clams these days for a place like NYC maybe more.

Due to shorted compressor the old refrigerant is no good to try to reuse it is a fools paradise (the new compressor will die from it). They need to properly dispose of that and the recyclers charge for acid laced refrigerant... so that might be another 100 on top of freight charge.

The driers aren't covered by mfg. those could be approaching another 100 -- so from the 1200 from all these uncovered costs --- $400 in uncovered costs. reusing old driers or skipping this step is another fools paradise situation with a shorted compressor in the mix.

Given it's NYC --- 3 people + manager + dispatcher --- $800 dries up pretty quick considering benefits, workman's comp etc. for 5 people involved in this job -- the business doesn't survive without profit.

The compressor plug can fail, but it's so rare these days it's not really worth mentioning other than something to grab at to blame rather than the service practices of the HVAC company in question.

The refrigerant? with 800 in possible labor and benefits charges amongst these 5 people involved with this job -- they probably take a loss on that. This unit a 4ton 2 speed could need somewhere around 12-15 lbs of refrigerant maybe more depending on line set length.

I think you said 87 per lb.? 1044 to 1305 just for refrigerant -- not counting every thing else?

There's plenty I left off this example:

accountant

vehicle(s) gas / maintenance exp.

tools expense (maintenance)

building lease payment

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$1200 evaporates pretty quick these days... (2023)

There is a real problem with the level of technical training on the part of the service techs. For $245 an hour, too often you get a young guy that really doesn't know what he's doing. He doesn't have the electrical background or the refrigeration background - and not much experience.

It shouldn't require multiple man hours, supervisors, etc. to diagnose this issue.

Compressor replacements are not easy, and the success rate goes down if you have a newbie on the job. If it's a burnout, the chances of getting the unit cleaned up properly are very low. As was mentioned, acids form after a burnout and eat up the insulation on the new compressor. It takes a lot of time to properly pump down and sweep the unit. And yes, a filter dryer is required.

The shop that replaced this compressor 4 years ago knows why it failed again - it failed because they didn't clean it up right when they replaced it.

The OP should at least consider complete replacement of the unit vs trying a compressor replacement again.

It shouldn't require multiple man hours, supervisors, etc. to diagnose this issue.

Compressor replacements are not easy, and the success rate goes down if you have a newbie on the job. If it's a burnout, the chances of getting the unit cleaned up properly are very low. As was mentioned, acids form after a burnout and eat up the insulation on the new compressor.

Jake,

It doesn't require multiple man hours. Companies get so desperate for help they will hire anyone including those with no experience. Consider them helpers or a gopher (go for this / go for that) to cut man hours of those with more experience.

In my experience the gopher as time goes on is allowed to do more and more things, may not be watched as often as they should -- trusted to do more and well there you go. The other may be less money than hiring someone like me or thumb backing someone like me. (The thumb in the back trick.) Not a good idea to thumb a guy like me in the back. (In other words hold me back because my skill is what it is... either selling or repairing.) -- in fairness things were different back then than they are now... even still it's what drove me to start my own company and run things as I see fit. Magically 99% of my work related problems disappeared -- you know you're being told there's reasons we don't want you to do this or that... when in fact they were wrong for not listening to me. (water under the bridge now)

Some will probably call this previous paragraph a bragging rant -- lest I remind you I have 30 years in HVAC and over 15 years running my own company -- all by myself. I think I've earned the right to brag a wee bit. (wink-wink)

Easy to say just replace the condensing unit with a new one, but if procedures aren't done well in that --- the new condenser will go thru the same things as the one before.

I wouldn't call compressor replacements all that hard (even burnouts)-- more like tedious depending on an assortment of factors like how tall the condenser coil is -- access to get to the compressor and so on. Some manufacturers have made the process harder than it really should be, and in some cases that's a long and winding argument in and of itself.

The other is time -- some markets summer may be only 3 months long back in my early days this was coined as 3 months of hurry, 9 months of worry. Meaning that you get worked to death in the summer only to nearly starve thru the winter. While heating problems do happen, not to the intensity that AC problems do. If the company is over staffed due to AC season, take a while guess what happens in September? laid off. Favorites get picked... usually those whose numbers are more fantastic than others. (selling new systems vs repairs etc) not necessarily skill type things.

HVAC is a hard job for many reasons, not just a few. Plenty more depends on the economy. If you remember back to sept 11 the day the attacks hit -- work dried up. People were scared. There were salesmen (those who could repair AC's) turning in sales books and shifting back to doing repairs and service work. (Even more so in 2007/2008 people were walking away from their homes) Then again for my area 2016/2017 tax day flood and Hurricane Harvey.

Too many people today living large thinking this will just magically keep going. Financial news tells me not so --- new CC record with over 1 trillion in credit card balances more and more people living on CC's. How many HVAC businesses may go thru something similar? I see the signs everywhere because I have been doing this thankless job for so long.

Remember just 3 years ago what the statistics looked like for HVAC business (click to enlarge)

I make it look really easy. It took me 30 years to get here. Don't forget that.

I service the Katy, Texas area. (no gimmicks)

“The OP should at least consider complete replacement of the unit vs trying a compressor replacement again.”

The OP would be open to getting a new condenser. The question is who will pay for it? It doesn’t seem fair the OP has to pay for the installer’s mistakes.

This installer does not employ qualified techs. It could be because the pay is not competitive. That and a general shortage of experienced HVAC techs.

The OP would be open to getting a new condenser. The question is who will pay for it? It doesn’t seem fair the OP has to pay for the installer’s mistakes.

The FAD (factory authorized dealer) argument is breaking down. Why is that mike_home?

Surprised? I'm not.

(call Carrier FAD dept... the imaginary club because someone read too much into the fake entity... it primarily exists to make you think you're getting something when you probably aren't.)

Unfortunately the replacement compressor has already installed. We are waiting for an upate on the replacement cost. I would like to know who is the contractor. If the original author does not want to post the information. then I ask to share it in a private message.

Hi all,

So, here is the update. We are up and running with a/c. One of the techs came back on Monday with the new plug they ordered. He installed it and all seems to be working as it should. I signed an invoice for $0, but that was just for Monday. I did ask next steps, and as expected, I am awaiting a call from the field supervisor or someone of that ilk, to discuss cost. The tech told me that this whole situation has caused quite a brouhaha at HQ, as it should IMO. I think they know that they are the failing link. So, that's where I am. I will certainly update this thread when I get final resolution.

As for the company, do I think that all the techs are idiots, no. But they seem to have a high turnover rate of techs, and many that are new. And some are borderline idiots. Given the economy and job market right now, I don't think this is particular to this company. I am going to start looking for another company to do the servicing/maintenance. Back 10 years ago when I was interviewing companies for the new system, out of 7 companies, this was the only one that gave me the system I wanted and didn't try to oversell me. I was armed with so much info from this site (thankfully!) that it was pretty shocking how these companies try and take advantage. That being said, I wasn't expecting to have to replace the compressor after 6 years, and then again after another 4. So, all my planning didn't turn out as well as I would have liked. I don't have any regrets because, again, I did all the research, all the right things, and it still turned out this way. Sometimes these things happen.

I hope the company does the right thing regarding cost. I don't want to fight but I might have to. We shall see. At this point, I just have to move forward and pray this system lasts me a good 5-7 more years while I search for a new company for a replacement system.

Thank you again for all your input and knowledge! It has been invaluable.

How many days did you have to suffer without air conditing? Something you may want to mention during your next conversation with this company’s management.

It was a week, but luckily we have two window units we purchased the last time this happened so we didn't suffer much. I know, not the point. I will definitely bring it up.

As for the company, do I think that all the techs are idiots, no. But they seem to have a high turnover rate of techs, and many that are new. And some are borderline idiots. Given the economy and job market right now, I don't think this is particular to this company.

LOL. This wasn't the only reason I struck out on my own over 15 years ago... but it was big part of the overall reason.

The bigger the HVAC company, the more likely it is you'll see it. Why I remain a 1 man show.

Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth, too many idiots within a company drive it into the ground.

Austin, I agree. When I started with them 10 years ago, this was a smaller operation. Bigger than 1 man but they had seasoned techs who were responsive and seemed knowledgeable. Then 4 years ago with the first compressor failure, I started to see how they were declining. And now, the worst. It has become a factory of sorts. You can never get who you need on the phone or in person the first time - you have to fight. So irritating.

Update: somone from customer service just called me to let me know they have the final bill ready. Are you sitting down?? They want to charge me in full for the 6 hours of labor and 11 pounds of refrigerant (which is now $125/lb). Around $3100. I said absolutely not and the field supervisor or someone above him needs to call me to discuss. I am so angry - 1. the field super. didn't have the guts nor courtesy to call me himself and 2. that he is not even attempting to make this right or stay true to his word of the bill being less than retail. It's a little shocking, to say the least. The CS agent asked me why I didn't want to pay. Ha! I told her she doesn't have the time nor authority for me to rehash the situation. So, I am waiting for a call. Eventually.

Oh and mike, we were w/o air for 2 weeks. In my rage, I forgot the rain delay and all that went with that.

Could you imagine being without heat for two weeks in January?

“The tech told me that this whole situation has caused quite a brouhaha at HQ”

Apparently the billing person was not part of this brouhaha. This company continues to compound their mistakes.

Update: somone from customer service just called me to let me know they have the final bill ready. Are you sitting down?? They want to charge me in full for the 6 hours of labor and 11 pounds of refrigerant (which is now $125/lb). Around $3100. I said absolutely not and the field supervisor or someone above him needs to call me to discuss. I am so angry.

theclose, This is primarily why quotes that can change after the fact put you in a bind from a flat rate pricing structure that don't change.

Given how much time and energy they spent on it -- 2 techs all day + supervisor to chat with you + then chasing down a new compressor plug... of which they didn't notice at the time they condemned the previous compressor as being shorted?

If they were there 8 hours -- just one tech at $245 an hour is just under 2 grand (labor only). -- 2 techs double that. Usually companies that run this way give a labor break on the second man depending on what is being done. But a compressor change out under part warranty is a one man job no matter how you slice it... provided of course that one man knows what he's doing. A stretch of the imagination to get there with this company.

They (your HVAC company 'maybe former now') are into bean counter mode now, because of payroll most likely. If techs are fleeing there's always a reason for it -- usually pay related.

Less than Retail: for NYC? yeah still not likely to be rosy. I get why you're angry --- around my area that price they are giving you is over 50% what a new AC condenser would run here (entry level 14.3 SEER2 single speed, not 2 speed)

A new condenser would come with a new 10 year part warranty. In NYC no telling what that price might be... it's an HCOLA (high cost of living area).

This is another reason why the coming refrigerant cost component is likely to drive warranty compressor change outs (if there is one) into extinction. R410a faces a 30% cut in production next year. Low supply / High demand: prices go up.

No R410a equipment after Dec. 31, 2024 unless the government (EPA) reverts course.

This chapter in my HVAC journey has thankfully come to a close. I spoke to the field super. this morning and while things got a little heated, at the end of the day, I only paid for the refrigerant. While it is annoying to have this happen, and frustrating that I am shelling out more money for their mistakes, I think the end result is as fair as it was going to get. Final bill was $1600 ($135/lb of refrigerant - I misheard the other day and thought it was $125/lb.), 11 lbs plus tax.

I really appreciate all your input and advice. Arming yourself with the proper information is helpful, especially in situations such as this.

Now to find a new HVAC company...

While it is annoying to have this happen, and frustrating that I am shelling out more money for their mistakes, I think the end result is as fair as it was going to get. Final bill was $1600 ($135/lb of refrigerant - I misheard the other day and thought it was $125/lb.), 11 lbs plus tax.

theclose, So about $300 cheaper than the last time. All said and done not too bad, but not what I would call good with a 2 time failed compressor unit. Hopefully given the amount of time and energy they put into it this time the result is better.

It doesn't sound like you're singing praises to them. The single warranty compressor I had about 3 years ago that was a single speed machine (7 years old at time of failure) was probably under $1400 under part warranty (including the refrigerant component) if I remember correctly. Puron (R410a) was much cheaper then. I think probably around 10 LBs. It's the only warranty compressor change I've had in 15 years of doing business myself of Condensers that I originally installed myself. So the only thing I can compare it to. I did a slew of 2 speed condensers in the 2014 - 2016 time frame. AFAIK they are all alive and kicking. I just visited one of them recently with outside air temps over 102F in the shade at around 5pm central time.

Maybe today the price would probably around $1600 or more because expenses are greater now. (machines that I installed originally) -- Machines that I didn't install originally probably marginally higher. Too many people like to throw me under the bus thinking that every company and their methods of delivering are the same... even after all this time I know "methods" are not the same. (2 speed machines absolutely higher -- they often hold much more refrigerant.)

It's not what you know in this business (primarily) it's what you think you know for sure that just isn't so. ( I live it everyday for the past 15 years. ) This rule book marker is placed near: Knowing what to do is just as important as knowing what "NOT" to do.

You probably have your work cut out for you to find a new company. Take your time.

Thanks for updating your story and not leaving us hanging. I'd wish you good luck but at this point I think you need more than luck.

I service the Katy, Texas area.