I grow Jude the Obscure, but a lot of people want it and can't find it, I think. Just recently, I was reading a book that showed the rose Prospero, and I've fallen in love with it. It was first sold in 1982, and was retired sometime in the past by Austin. I've been checking and literally no one in the US is selling it. Heirloom Roses says it's no longer growing it, let alone selling it. This rose is just stunning. Check HMF Roses and take a look, especially at Jeri Jennings photos of her Prospero. I don't care if it's slow to start, I want that rose. And I fear that eventually, it will join the compost heap of forgotten roses. Diane

Despite it’s temperamental nature, I wish I had got another of ‘The Prince‘ while it was still available on mainland Europe. I currently have enough of both, but am hoping EU nurseries will resurect MW and LEH when their patents run out.

I also regret the fact that European breeders sometimes release roses in other continents but not their own and that many US/Canadian beauties are not released over here!

Yes, Nollie. Australia seems to have all sorts of wonderful roses we can't get in the US like most of the newer Tantau roses. I think my unicorn rose, Prospero, is sold in Australia still. I'll have to double check that, though. Diane

I hope to reply soon but the site keeps jumping around again!

@Diane Brakefield this is for you. I have purchased Prospero from Trevor Whites, UK two years ago.

My most wanted DA roses are Claire rose and Lordly Oberon. It's just impossible to find these 😔

Thankyou Diane, I have just had a look at Jude the Obscure and Prospero. What lovely colouring - similar in the pics, with quite different shape with Jude more open and Prospero more chalice-shaped. Beautiful. I vaguely recall some uproar in the UK when Jude was retired. How lovely that you have it. There is something uplifting and relaxing about roses with those peachy tones, I think. Do you think anything comes close to Jude and Prospero, for you?

Thankyou. Nollie, it is a worry. I just had a look at The Prince and the rose shape sounds sturdy in a good way (described as cupped rosette form). Do you enjoy the way it is supposed to change colour as it grows and ages?

I can't remember how long patents last? Maybe the breeder has to renew them or not? That would be good re MW and LEH for instance.

So infuriating when roses are sold elsewhere and not also in the area they were bred!

Thankyou Rojas. That is interesting about Trevor White selling Prospero fairly recently. I sometimes think they seem to sell alot more roses than many other UK rose sellers, but maybe it is because their website seems more transparent than others. How has Prospero been for you?

Re DA's Claire rose, do you mean something other than 'Claire Austin' ( the white climber). I have not heard of any other.

Beautiful pics of your mystery rose!?!

Ah but we are denied Barden’s beauties, Diane, among so many others. I would love to try Mel’s Heritage. Oh and Renae, plus your Orange Dude, I could go on..

Clematis, Plant Breeders Rights (PBR/the patent) last for 20 or sometimes 25 years, then that’s it. I don’t know the exact date of expiry but LEH, for example, was bred ’before 2004’. Say it was introduced/patented in the UK in 2005, that means the patent could expire very soon. One would need to have HMF premium membership to check the exact patent details.

The Prince‘s large, full blooms can nod and fry in too much sun, but I do rather enjoy the changeable form and colour. It needs support and management in a pot, but I really wanted to try letting one rip in the ground. Diane grows it superbly, but here are some of the colours it gives me:

Diane, Prospero IS available here. I just got one last fall from that nursery in the Deep South that sells a bunch of out of patent DA roses- can’t remember the name! They graft some on Fortuniana and grow some own root. I got Prosero early fall last year among a bunch of other bands. I thought all of them were own root but Prosero is grafted! It’s showing vigor and gave me several clusters of blooms before the cold weather hit. I’m excited to see what it does this year! I’ll try to remember the name of the nursery. Oh yes, I remember now! K&M Roses. They’re a bit hard to order from but I got several hard to find ones from them.

Thankyou Nollie - The Prince looks like three different roses - thankyou for showing me the different shades it gave you. Your middle pic really shows the great shape it has, I can see why you grow it, even with the challenges. I will keep an eye out for Diane's rose too.

Thanks for explaining PBR - that could mean positive news for lovers of LEH (myself included).

Claire Rose (auslight) is a beautifully rumpled soft pink. The very definition of a ”romantic” looking rose

Thankyou, Oursteelers. I had a look for Auslight /Claire and agree, it looks romantic and pretty. I checked the UK DA site, and they don't mention it, so they must have retired it a while ago. I wish DA would not disown roses like that!

Thankyou, Parkbench, that is so helpful. Your insights into the intricacies of PBR show the complexities of things I was not aware of...so 20/25/30years depending...I think I will take a look at some old catalogues, to work out any roses that PBR might soon be expiring for. That might well include AUSlight too. Will pencil in Dec 31st 2032 for LEH, here in the UK!

Rojas, thank you so much for those scrumptious photos of Prospero. I was told that K-M Roses is selling this rose. However it's grafted on Fortuniana rootstock which a lot of Florida rose growers like, but we are too cold for Fortuniana rootstock, I'm sure. I should check it out anyway.

Nollie, your The Prince photos are gorgeous, of course, And yes, that rose is variable in color and sometimes size, when the heat is bad here. Don't care, I'm sticking with The Prince for those times when is so very beautiful and like no other....Are a lot of Tom Carruth's roses not available in Europe? I couldn't be without Twilight Zone, Love Song, and Julia Child, among others. Oh, the Dude, too. That's a Carruth rose.

Clematis, I suppose that Munstead is a little, very little, like Prospero, but MW is gone, too. Nothing comes close to Jude the Obscure, I think, but others might disagree. Diane

Twenty years of Jude the Obscure. Photos all from 2024, and he's earned his keep.

Diane, thankyou and gorgeous pics of Jude the Obscure - I can see why you adore him. What a beauty. 2024 looks like a stellar year for you. The soft ice cream cone looks of this rose is adorable. Your pics remind me of Wollerton Old Hall, who I love and is also from DA. I wonder if WOH might share a parent with JTO. I see Abraham D'arby is one parent of JTO. The fragrance of JTO and WOH seem to be from the same classification.

Ah, I see now the MW Prospero connection - thankyou.

Thank you so much, Clematis. Wollerton Old Hall does look something like Jude, but it's not quite there. I think..... Prospero's color is a little like MW, but the bloom structure and petal layout are totally different from Munstead Wood's. From what I've learned in the last few days, Prospero is not a vigorous rose and needs to be grafted. And since we're too cold for the Florida rootstock, that means I'll give up on Prospero for now. I just looked at the ethereal Claire Rose. I'm still catching my breath at its beauty. For years, I had confused it with the white Austin climber, also name Claire. I can't think of a single modern rose that looks like Claire Rose. It's a rose gone to the compost heap, it seems. What a shame. I would grow it for sure. Diane

Diane, not every Carruth roses is offered in Europe, but I have Julia Child, Ebb Tide, Love Song and (new this year) Twilight Zone. I had Diamond Eyes but it was a black spot magnet so I got rid of it. Hopefully OD will be available at some point. Julia gets bad BS, but it never seems to affect her vigour or bloom power.

Thank you very much, Diane, for letting me know more about Jude and Prospero. Does that mean you don't have any roses with the Florida rootstock in your garden? Has climate change altered what you can grow? Sorry for all the questions!

It seems a real shame that Claire Rose has been retired in the UK. I think it was introduced near to 1986, so unless I have not understood, the PBR must have expired everywhere!? It sounds as though DA named at least two roses after his daughter Claire. I was confused too. Sometimes I think roses have to be seen in real life to actually see the details that set them apart. Having only seen Claire rose from a few photos, it reminds me in colouring a bit, of DA Sceptre'd Isle. (AUSland). I see Claire rose has Iceberg (Kordes, 1958, floribunda) as a parent.

Nollie, Diamond Eyes wasn't Carruth's best. I had three of them that I removed over the years, the last going last summer to make way for a second Angel Face (there's a beautiful rose, but I hear it's a black spot magnet, though not here). I didn't like Diamond Eyes' little blooms that didn't show up well, and dried up quickly. The plant itself was very nice. My current Carruth fav is Double Easy Orange, available only from Jackson & Perkins in the US. Julia is one of those once in lifetime roses for me. I grow three of them, my big girls I've grown since 2006 when they first hit the market. They anchor my rose garden in the front of the house. Diane

I just saw your post above, Clematis. The rootstock I was referring to is Fortuniana, which doesn't seem to be hardy in our zone 7 US. It's used in Florida a lot because it's nematode resistant, and that's a problem in Florida. My roses are grafted on Doc Huey and Multiflora rootstocks, both doing fine in my climate and soil (alkaline). I vastly prefer grafted roses, which is going against the current trend in the US. I grow two own root roses, Abe Darby, which I call Twig Darby, and a Julia Child which can't hold a candle to her grafted sisters. Climate change hasn't affected my gardening much, but our summers are getting even hotter and we keep breaking heat records here in SW Idaho, semi arid desert (10 inches per year precip). Diane

The Twig Darby can still produce some nice blooms, but he hates the heat, and his heavy blooms often face plant on the weak canes.

I'm gob smacked by the beauty of these roses!! Diane (I consider your Jude to be the most beautiful of roses!!), Nollie and Rojo thank you for those photos!!! And these roses are being discontinued?? Bizarre.

The usual DA business-driven sharp practices, Carol - they have retired so many decent roses.

I also have Royal Celebration, Diane, I forgot about that because its underwhelming here and was destined for the shovel, until the broken wrist temporarily stopped all heavy work. Double Easy Orange is one I really want so I will be watching to see if and when it makes an appearance here. Rosarie Guillot in France sells some J&P exclusive roses, so I’m hoping. I did recently discover a big commercial nursery selling Abbaye de Cluny, if I wasn’t already overrun with roses and nowhere to put them I would be tempted.

99% of roses over here are sold grafted on laxa, own root is so rare to see. I have a new grafted Abe this year so be interesting to see how it does for me. I didn’t know he hates the heat, the last one I tried died in a Spring freeze so the optics don’t look good!

Nollie - I'm sorry about your broken wrist. Hopefully, it's almost healed?

Nollie, yes, I hope your wrist is healing fast, since Royal Celebration is waiting for the shovel. A bad joke. So are you interested in Abbaye de Cluny? This is a top rose for me. I've grown her for about 18 years and she is grafted. Abbaye is a continuous bloomer here, and one of those roses I take for granted. She's a big one. I hope you get your Double Easy Orange before long. Diane

June Abbaye de Cluny

July

October Abbaye never quit blooming for months.

Diane - your first pic triggered the smell of mandarin oranges for me. Do the blooms smell like that? :) That first pic is soooo beautiful!!! I love a big close-up. And the last pic shows the beauty of the full bush. Wonderful!!

Thanks, Carol, but that last photo is just a fraction of the whole bush. I tried all summer to get the whole thing in a photo that looked right. Abbaye is backed by a fence and has two big boxwood on either side which limits options. You won't like my answer on scent because this rose has little, if any scent. It's a Meilland Romantica hybrid tea. Now Rouge Royale is about my most highly scented rose, another Meilland Romantica, but what a contrast on scent. Diane

More of the bush in October

Oh, as I've said before, that fence wall is 9 feet tall. Diane

Thankyou Diane, that made me laugh re 'the twig Darby' He can still put on a better show than most of my (younger) rose plants! So perfectly ruffled, almost like expertly crafted crepe paper, in the photos. A link to Jude the Obscure of course, too. It is a shame about the heat not helping. Hopefully his main display is before it gets too hot - but I may be thinking of the more tepid sun here!

Meant to add about the precipitation, I think it is more 30 inches a year with me, which is more than your 10 inches Diane, so I can appreciate the extra effort involved in watering that must come with your environment. The last few years have seemed more rainy than usual with me, but it comes in deluges rather than delicately spaced out through the months.

High fences make good neighbours, as the saying goes! :)

In the US, Claire Rose is available from Ma Cherie Roses: https://www.macherieroses.com/products/claire-rose-2-quart-live-plant

They also sell several other older DA roses

I am not sure when Cressida was retired, but that's one that I've been trying to find with no luck once it stopped being carried by nurseries in Canada that ship to the US

Airt, have you ever purchased a rose from Ma Cherie Roses? I'm certain I read a bad feedback on a recent thread for that seller. I'll try to track that down. Diane

I did purchase Falstaff (ausverse) from them, which I received in a timely manner and is now huge

Thank you, airt. I put Claire Rose in my Amazon cart to order from Ma Cherie through Amazon. But I noticed this rose is own root, and I'm thinking it probably needs to be grafted. I'm going to do more checking around. Ben grows Claire Rose, and I'll see what he thinks. Diane

Diane - it must be a huge bush!!

Diane, thanks for the wonderful photos of Abbaye de Cluny, yes I would be very interested, having heard you sing her praises. Unfortunately I found it too late and already have far more than sensible of new bare roots this year. Maybe next year. At least Meilland allow their discontinued roses to be sold by others.

Yes the wrist is slowly healing, thanks but will be another two months of rehab and physio before I regain full use and strength. No heavy lifting or waving the shovel around until May!

Diane, I got a Claire Rose last year from Ma Cherie and am very happy with the quality! It seems to be a robust, vigorous rose for and own root rose.

Nollie - 2 months! Yes, please continue the physio/rehab. My mom didn't bother and she ended up not being able to lift her arm up very high.

Nollie, I hope those two months go quickly and are successful in helping you strengthen your wrist. I've been putting my hands and wrists through heck during my current long garden clean up. You're welcome on those photos.

Judi, thanks so much for that info. Is your Claire Rose showing signs of being a large one? Are you pleased with its blooming? Thanks for any extra info. Diane

My Clair Rose is just ok, however in her defense she is battling the shade and roots from japanese maples. Mine is grafted from Palatine.

I have Cressida (also from Palatine) babies if anyone is local to the Seattle area. She is a beautiful, large, thorny beast!

Diane, I have very little info to offer on Claire Rose. It’s very new to me and it hasn’t bloomed yet, but I understand that it wants to grow tall and bloom at the tips unless the long canes are pegged down. If this is done, it seems to sprout lots of laterals and bloom more profusely. I plan to try that on mine. At this point it’s a sturdy little bush close to two feet tall looking quite happy. Hopefully I get some of those luscious blooms this spring to photograph and share. Ben has had his longer and shared some incredible photos last year. It’s because of his that I ordered mine.