You folks are the best. Froze , thank you so much for your whole post and, yes, I totally agree. Heart-felt thanks to all of you who send me their good wishes-it truly means a lot to me. I know I'm by far not the nicest, sweetest person on this forum, lol- often a down-right Old Curmudgeon, so it means all the more to me to realize that there are people who wish me well in spite of my many faults. Ingrid, you, instead, are definitely in the running to be voted "nicest, sweetest" forum member,if such a competion actually existed. "We live on hope and at present there is a feeling that hope is in very short supply." OMG, how true! I hope fervantly that you are right and that things will take a sharp turn for the better. Actually I have to be very, very grateful and feel lucky that the surgeon had this opening for me in May-usually the wait is much, much longer for this operation.

Moses, you are so right :

"Our roses can bring out the best and the worst in us, me included. Obsession, vanity, pride...need to be overcome by discretion, humility, and patience. I gotta' check myself, constantly." I really struggle with this sort of dilemma all the time. Is my whole project of trying to make this garden nothing but vanity? How can it possible be sustainable? Just what the frack am I trying to do? etc, etc, etc.Heaven seems to send me such mixed messages, LOL...

Do add yourself to a wait list, Bart, in case your surgeon has a cancellation for your hip surgery. Ingrid is right that sooner would be better.

I love both your attitudes.

Important topic, Moses - I’m glad you brought this up. I ’ve appreciated a place like this forum where we can come together in a shared interest, no matter our age, location, etc to share and learn from each other. I appreciate differences in opinion, too. However, intead of respectful disagreements, it been sad to see forum members forget social civility and throw out accusations, some based in loose assumptions, and other hurtful language, especially the past few months. I had thought about calling it quits here recently but I do appreciate so many of you and look forward to continuing to share with each other in the future but hope we can go against the current trend and keep conversation respectful.

Wishing Bart and everyone else here struggling with health challenges some relief.

I completely agree, Dave. The lack of tolerance for different opinions and the false accusations on this forum have gone so far that people are even stalking others on Facebook. Very sad.

Bart, you may not realize how much we admire the grit and determination you've shown in gardening in such an extremely difficult location, without water and with the different health challenges you've faced apart from your painful hip. So yes, we do love you and cherish your presence here, and having so many different personalities contributing only enriches this forum. Don't ever leave.

I have basically given up in rises, but I still enjoy reading the forum.

I.Clark,

Can you please share with us why you have given up on roses?

Moses

I’m still lurking around once in a while! I haven’t posted because I had an adorable baby last summer and he is eight months old now. I have a sandbox beside the rose garden for the toddler stage and I’m so excited to work beside him while he plays. His daddy kept hold of him while I pruned the other day, and it did so much for me to get out there again! So chins up, there are lots of good things going on in the world too! Sometimes people just go through busy seasons. :)

I agree with others. So many garden forums to choose from and many folks are just using you tube, instagram, blogs, and other social media for gardening, learning and communication. Houzz forums can be problematic and people don't want to deal with waiting around when they can get their answers quicker elsewhere. I find I am spending more time on other media now as well. I hate typing up a long post, getting photos to load and then it either doesn't post or disappears. Sometimes people answer, sometimes not. Worse yet. getting blocked out of Houzz for no reason. At least back in the day, if Spike sent you to "Disney" you at least, knew the reason lol.

I think I come here out of habit and because I like the people on the rose forums. I have all but quit posting on other GW/Houzz forums now. Most of the people are gone! Many on the FL forum, (for example but there are many others) were older gardeners and have either passed on, moved somewhere they can't garden, or just quit gardening. Younger people don't like forums as much, waiting days or weeks for an answer. Its like old fashioned snail mail or maybe, more like public emails lol. People now, want fast communication or to watch videos. (Honestly I do too). This is a trend that will increase as older gardeners quit gardening and newer gardeners emerge. Some forums on Houzz haven't had a new post in a year. I'm surprised Houzz doesn't just shut them down.

Thank you for your post, Blue Mountain Girl. It’s good to hear from you again and congratulations on your sweet baby! You are right, there is still much going on in our world to be thankful for. We get to choose what we focus on. I’m not advocating the idea of ignoring the rottenness that exists, but I do advocate taking courage in the reality that there is much around us to praise and appreciate in others. The birth of your baby is certainly a bright spot and I am reminded again of a little wall sign my husband’s brother gave us over the birth of our first child. It said something like this “ Babies are God’s way of saying that the world should go on.” And that means to me that we should all take courage and shine the light in our dark world and continue to cultivate beauty in every way we can to lift our own spirits and that of those around us. Our gardens and roses are a part of that plan. I firmly believe there’s a reason that God placed our first ancestors in the Garden. Take courage and keep posting, friends! I am not on any social media platforms either and intend to keep it that way, so I hope we can continue to post here in spite of the deficiencies of this platform. You all are a huge support and motivation in my gardening experience.

Thank you for this post, Judi.

Sultry, you are confirming my suspicions that traditional forums are, sadly, becoming less relevant to many, particularly the younger generations wanting instant answers. I use you tube too and found demonstration videos helpful when first learning, for example, how to train and prune climbing roses. I particularly rate those of Jason of Fraser Valley Rose Farm. I do trust his content, but would always value the extensive knowledge, specific advice and real world experience of the lovely people on here over 99% of other media. There are many so-called ’experts’ out there spouting a lot of seriously misleading guff, or advice so generalised as to be useless. It is hard, especially for beginners, to know whom to trust. It’s highly probable of course that there are many excellent resources and good sites I am simply unaware of..

Judi,

Your post gave me a lift, big time! Thanks.

Moses

Awww, thank you, Judi! I heartily agree with everything you wrote. :) God is so kind to give us our sweet little boy! There’s no way to improve on what you said so I just say Amen!

O, me, too, Judi and Blue MG! AMEN!!!!!!!!!

Moses - I can grow canadian shrub roses, but all the hybrid tears and floribunda and grandifloras die for me. Climate is just too harsh. plus deer have gotten out of hand and eat all my roses anyway.

L Clark, I do understand and can commiserate with you. Not the climate but the animal predation. I had 80+ roses of many different types and within a year or two the ground squirrels ate all of them, except one. Their population has now severely decreased (thank you coyotes and possibly climate change) and I've begun to grow a very few roses again, with fingers crossed.

I. Clark,

I'm very worry to hear that. Deer are abominably destructive. I know of a local, large, public rose garden that installed a 9 foot fence around the entire garden. An 8 foot fence is too short...a big buck Eastern White Tail can jump an 8 foot fence! I imagine that a Mule Deer can jump a 9 foot high fence, so a 10 foot high fence would be needed! Ridiculous!

Moses.

Deer can certainly be a problem for roses. I am about to move to another property with a very high deer population and know will have to do something dramatic or lose all my roses

Judi -- I hear you. Plants are my happy place, and this forum is, too. Nature is a balm for me.

I just want to add my voice to the chorus of people saying they appreciate this forum. I'm glad there is a place off of social media to chat about roses. I feel like I hear so much about rose conversations happening on Facebook, but I just don't want to get back on Facebook (not for any dramatic reasons -- I just felt it was a time suck and that I didn't getting much out of it).

I'm afraid I'm rather addicted to Instagram, despite misgivings about its parent company. I like following gardeners (some of which are on these forums) but not necessarily the big influencers. Same goes for YouTube.

Despite Houzz's flaws, one thing I like about it is that there is not much visual distraction from the conversations themselves. Ads are relegated to the sidebar and don't interrupt our threads, at least in the browser-based version.

I think I first became fully aware of these forums during the Garden Roses LLC controversy, after I'd ordered a rose from them unwittingly, so I don't know what these forums were like back in the day.

I particularly appreciate being able to speak to gardeners from many different generations and from all around North America and the world. I've found you all the be very welcoming. I still think this is one of the more polite and civil corners of the internet.

Elena, I'm sorry if negative feelings about GRF made you the target of unkind comments. I never believed you were paid promoter of GRF or any of that nonsense. You once said something to the effect that everyone has a different threshold for risk when ordering from a vendor, and I think that's a fair viewpoint. While I'm no longer a fan of GRF, I'm not going to shame others from ordering from them. Everyone can spend their money as they wish.

@windowsill_gardener, thank you! We just need to remember that we are all different and should not project our motivations or reasoning onto others.

The deer are a huge bummer, not only for roses, but for most flowers. I loathe them and they are a recent phenomenon here. Never had an urban population until a few years ago and people think it’s just wonderful. They eat almost anything.

Blue Mountain Girl, you described a great gardening moment with your husband and baby. I still tell my grown daughter that she is my favorite rose.

My grown-up DS is MY absolute favourite and most beautiful rose for me. Yes, macho men can be roses, too. With all due respect, I definitely heartily dislike the way some people refer to their rose plants as "she". Sexism works both ways.

I am guilty of that…lol

Although Kitty's post has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, I have to ask, how does Etsy enforce their "guidelines"? My guess is that they don't, based on the rose vendors I've seen there. I think those "guidelines" are more of a CYA thing for Etsy.

Dianela, as you know, I'm certain, a fence is the only sure way to keep out deer. But I've found Deer Out to be the most effective repellent. It's not 100% effective, but it certainly helps. I also use a lot of blockade plants along our back yard bordering the totally wild gully below our hill: a deep border of huge lavender plants, big butterfly bushes, and big boxwood. Deer hate the cat pee smell of boxwood. and a giant snowball bush, plus others.

Susan, I don't think a lot of the above posts have anything to do with the topic. And, yes, Etsy has no staff to enforce those involved guidelines, I'm sure. They don't have the expertise or time to do that, of course. Diane

To get back on topic then..

Has it occurred to anyone, the lure of social media aside, that perhaps there are just TOO MANY rose forums and each is diminished and dwindling as a result? I did a search of forums and came up with eight different rose forums:

Antique Roses

Miniature Roses

Name That Rose!

Organic Rose Growing

Rose Exhibiting

Rose Gallery

Rose Propagation & Exchange

Roses

Well, like many of us, I grow lots of different classes of roses, both antique and modern. I grow them organically. I post photos, gallery style. I might occasionally ask for a rose ID. I don’t do propagation and exchange because I don’t know any other rose nuts in my country to exchange with, but plenty on this forum do and I might if I did!

I have been mooching around some of the above forums that I didn’t know existed before and there were a good number of old threads I found interesting. There is clearly some confusion about the best place to post certain queries because some bore no relation to that particular forum speciality and might have got more responses if posted on this one.

What are your thoughts? Would we be stronger and better united under one rose forum? Or maybe a few strategic mergers to reduce the overall number and boost the activity on the remaining ones?

I always look at Antique Roses and Roses, and not at all at the remainder of the categories, and consolidating some or all of them seems like a good idea. The old roses are my favorites but I'm always interested in checking out the newer roses, and I love interacting with the posters there, some of whom don't visit the Antique Rose forum. So yes, overall, why not consolidate?

Ingrid and Nollie, I remember a lot of outrage about even being easily able to put up the same post on the Antique Forum as the Rose Forum. I don't think the idea would be welcomed by many of the people who post on the Antique Forum - not that there are many these days. In my view it's a shame, as it sidelines the old roses. But maybe it's a good thing, as when I first posted I was leapt on by a certain member of the Antique forum every time I opened my mouth, and studiously ignored by others, to the point where if a post of mine could not be ignored it was attributed to someone else! If it hadn't been for Diane and you, Ingrid, I wouldn't have stayed. Trish

Thank you Diane for your post I am ordering some of that product to try as soon as I move. I am also planning to fence in a rose garden at some since I am sure a very tall fence will be what I really need.

Regarding the comment mentioning merging some of them forums I agree a single forum to handle all roses post would probably be enough and posibly increase activity. I also know that those people who actually post on the antique forum would not be pleased with that idea. They have commented many times they do not appreciate their posts diluted with any modern roses even on accident so I don’t think they would enjoy a mixed rose forum.

History Lesson Time Kiddies

Back in the truly dark ages, there were newsgroups. They were sort of like forums, except there wasn't a central host, and they tended to be connected with academic servers. Because there wasn't a central host, each individual server had to decide whether or not to carry a specific newsgroup, so they created a group (news.groups, otherwise known as the Vile Newsgroup to anyone ancient enough to remember) to validate new groups.

There were roughly two schools of thought regarding the creation of new groups. There was the school that thought new groups should be created rarely, with enough support to pretty much guarantee a viable group, and the school that thought new groups should be easily created, but if they didn't generate enough traffic, they should equally easily be able to be removed. Spike sort of belonged to the second school, in that he believed in creating a lot of groups, but since servers had gotten a lot cheaper, sort of forgot about the removing part.

When Houzz bought GardenWeb, they asked for suggestions to improve the user experience. One of the frequent suggestions was to remove the zombie forums. You see how far that got. There are forums that have not had a new on-topic post in years, but Houzz has refused to do anything about it. So yes, it would be nice, but don't hold your breath.

The Rose Forum and the Antique Rose Forum used to have very different personalities. The Rose Forum moved a lot faster. So if you took a long time to compose a reply, the thread could have moved in a completely different direction. The Antique Rose Forum moved slowly enough that I could spend half an hour researching and writing a reply without worrying about thread drift in the meantime. If I was making dinner while doing this, it could easily stretch to an hour before the post was ready to submit. Now, if I can't write it in 5 minutes, I don't bother.

Yes, Trish. You are so right. I was never welcome on the Antique Rose Forum, even if my post was about a general topic of interest to everyone--supposedly. And I was outright insulted once, which caused me to leave the forum for nearly a year. Diane

Oh, this was way before Houzz. Diane

I'm sort of in the @mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY) camp of old forum users. I started with this forum in 1998, and was a member of the rec.gardens.roses newsgroup at that time too. There used to be a far more vitriolic battle between the OGR folks and the modern rose fans back then, primarily driven by the OGR folks. It seems as if consolidating all of the Houzz rose forums would improve things a bit, but I don't know how much. I think it's more an issue of other places hosting rose forums that compete with this one.

Diane, I must disagree with you that a lot of the posts on this thread don't have anything to do with the topic. By far, most do.

I'm grieved to think that anyone was dismissed or hurt by members of the Antique Roses forum. I hope like anything that I didn't contribute to that, but who knows as my memory is far from good these days. Given the state of the world now that kind of conflict seems laughable, but those were different times. The Antique Roses forum seems pitifully small now compared to what I remember fifteen or twenty years ago. I wonder if the advent of the Austin roses didn't contribute to that as romantic-looking roses became wildly popular and easily available, and thus perhaps more approachable than the old varieties. I say go for what feeds your soul and warms your heart and allow everyone else that same privilege.

Ingrid, as if you could do or say anything that would hurt or dismiss others. It's not in your nature. Certainly, as I said, you made me feel very welcome. Trish

Wow, I never realized that SOME of the people on the Antique Rose forum were so hostile! It's true that I don't read all the threads on any forum-just skim down and read stuff that happens to grab my interest,so it's quite easy for me to miss stuff. What a shame. It's also a shame because I don't think Austins or anything else could ever count as substitutes for OGRs ,so taking an isolationist attitude about the topic of OGRs certainly won't help encourage the appreciation of them-quite the opposite.

My own orientation would be for the "united we stand, divided we fall" sort of attitude,and Nollie's idea seems like a good one to me.

I wonder if people are spending more time on Facebook and other platforms of social media is part of the reason for the decline? A while back, I had a hard time trying to post pictures and backed off some posting.

Goodness, I am sorry if, in my newbie naïveté, I have stirred up old arguments. It just seemed a logical question to pose, but it sounds as if our masters would turn a deaf ear anyway. Being oblivious to the history (thank you mad_gallica for filling me in) I must say I have always felt welcome whatever forum I posted on, so lets hope that that continues and that the past stays in the past!

So many people have had trouble posting pictures or losing long comments, and either of those must be very frustrating. For some reason the garden gods have had pity on me since I haven't had that problem. I wonder if it could be because I only use my laptop rather than my phone.

I only use my laptop too, Ingrid. I don't have the savvy to use my phone! I used to have a lot of trouble just getting on to the site. I'd get FORBIDDEN on the screen. I had one day recently when my post with photos disappeared when I hit submit, but everyone seemingly had that problem that day.

I wonder how invested Houzz is about gardenweb as it doesn't generate any revenue for them. The problems with the site never seem to go away, they just wax and wane at best. I don't know if this makes a difference and maybe everyone is already doing this, but I get on by typing in gardenweb, never Houzz.

My son in law has it set up so I have this forum open always when I turn on my computer, and I enter the forum through gardenweb instantly. I've never had to sign in or do any of that hoo ha. Several years ago, Houzz did change my user name from Nanadoll to Diane Brakefield. Now that was a surprise. Who is this Diane Brakefield? I've mentioned before that I'd be willing to subscribe to the Forum if Houzz would fix its glitches. Diane

Phone? Laptop? What are these devices? I use a desk top, and I take pics with a camera camera. Sincerely, The Flatearther

@Diane Brakefield you crack me up, as if you could ever be a flat-earther. I’ve lurked on gardenweb for many years but never participated in forums because I never felt that I had anything novel to say. I’ve recently changed my approach in that I participate to be part of this wonderful community of shared learning and experience. The issue that I have with social media is how fast and superficial everything is. Like what can really be said in a 30 second tiktok or an Instagram reel? Not to mention all the bots and misinformation littering every platform out there. This forum has always remained true to its initial intention and that’s rare in this insanely fast-paced technological environment. I also think many of the newer platforms are not as accessible to older generations i.e. members of the community with real-life experience and a wealth of knowledge one cannot find anywhere else. I truly appreciate all of you.

Well, SD Shine, we appreciate you, and want you to contribute your knowledge and wit to this forum. I want to be a gardener, a rose gardener, not a rose collector who is in some kind of competition to buy up the most before anyone else does. Ew, I sound like an old f!@t, and that I am..... I notice you live in the Bay Area. Many, many years ago, I lived in San Jose and in Palo Alto. Went to two universities there, married an LA guy, and my daughter was born in Los Gatos. Then we all moved down to Redondo Beach. I love California and Californians. Diane

Diane, I also take photos with a camera and I thought I must be almost the only one. I should have known, by the excellence of your pictures, although many people also do a great job with the phone camera. It's more the eye than the apparatus that makes a difference, methinks.

SD, I'm so glad you've decided to join us, and I'm quite sure that what you have to say will be very much appreciated. We all learn from each other here but beside that it's just interesting to know what other posters are experiencing (and buying and shovel-pruning), and along the way getting to know each other on a more personal basis. It's all good!

Well Diane, if you are "an old f!@t ", I say "long live Team O. F.!" Shine, I totally agree with you about social media.

SD Shine, I don't have anything novel to say either. We can't all be Dianes! But I love reading about others' experiences, whether novel or not - and seeing other people's gardens. So please keep posting. Trish