My RdV is still a tiny band size, so I can’t offer much firsthand experience yet, but I ordered her because my research suggested that if you stay on top of pruning, she can be just as happy as a smaller shrub as she would be at 10 feet tall. I definitely don’t have space for that! She’s such a lovely rose that I don’t think I’ll mind the maintenance. Plus, being thornless should make trimming a bit easier.

What else did you order from ARE?

RdV is a beauty (should've included it in my list of "heart" roses). It's also very lithe and flexible-one can easily train it up a simple tripod made of rebar,thus adding height without occupying a lot of space on the ground.

Plum Perfect is not "officially" avaiblable in Europe (at least not according to HMF) I managed to get an own-root Plum Perfect from a German gentleman on this forum who happened to find one in in a store that probably was like a German version of Costco. He'd rooted some cuttings and they took, and he was kind enough to give me one. It grew vigorously in it's pot-so much so that I foolishly decided to plant it out in Fall 2023. Alas, it seems to not have survived the summer. I'm kicking myself for jumping the gun. I wrote to Kordes asking if they knew of any source for it in Europe, but they have not answered.

PP is a floribunda, whilst RdV is an OGR. I think that OGRs tend to be tougher, more resiliant plants than are floribundas.

I have RdV from ARE, Ingrid, and it remains modest in size here. It is no larger than a floribunda here.

Lily, I also ordered Xenna (a newer rose there that's totally unknown to me), La Vicomtesse, Spice and Cole's Settlement.

I'm glad to see that RdV is not necessarily a giant, sprawling shrub. The soil in my new rose plot at the back of my house is not as good as where I formerly had the bulk of my roses at the front, so that may limit the size of the rose. I (i.e. my gardener) will be planting these five some time next week as it rained quite a bit this week. The rain is really welcome as we've had a very dry winter, although fortunately northern California has been very wet and hopefully we can steal some of their water. That sounds bad, I know, but uncontrolled growth in southern California is still the norm.

If you don’t have water, should you even be planted quantities of roses?

Kitasei, I have only ten roses and they will be watered with a drip system, which doesn't waste water. I don't have a lawn or anything else that needs a lot of water, and without some trees or shrubs to modify the air temperature living here would be a very grim reality. Everything else planted here is drought-resistant and also benefits the wildlife and not just humans.

Har har har, kitasei! Ingrid at least has running water. I don't even have that out at my land! So your question is one that I often ask myself, LOL!!!

Well, it's not really "stealing" water as long as the water supplier owns water rights and is high enough in the queue to receive the water that goes with those rights, it being a fact of life here that 75% of the water that comes from precipitation falls in northern California and 75% of the population lives in southern California. And, the past few years, at least, there's been enough to go around.

Many of the old roses, anyway, are as tough as nails and can survive with little or no summer water, although there may not be as much repeat bloom. I have once-bloomer 'Fortuniana' growing with no summer water at all (FYI, we get an average of just 13" of rain per year -- vegetation type is classified as semi-arid grassland) and it blooms gloriously every spring - so full of buds right now that soon nary a leaf will be visible. Similarly, many roses in old cemeteries all over California. And, pertinent to this thread, I have had 'Reine des Violettes' growing like that, for something like 15 years so far at least. I had ripped that rose out from the place it is growing several times, due to a change in garden plans, but it kept coming back, so finally I said, "Okay, but I'm not irrigating you." It basically said, "So what?" and currently emerges from within the skirts of a pine-scented rosemary (Rosemarinus angustifolius). First flush is great and there's even some repeat; any water it gets is, at best, incidental. Tough, tough, tough. (Edit to add that it isn't a large shrub -- something like 4-5' tall and 4' wide, arching.)

Well, "stealing" was meant rather tongue in cheek although in the past there were those in northern California that weren't pleased that so much of their water was going to us in the south. It all depends on supply and demand, and lately the supply in the north has been more than abundant.

catspa, I'm amazed at your RdV which I wouldn't have thought to be so tough. You're right, though, the old roses have persevered in some very hostile conditions where most modern roses would have promptly given up. I believe our average rainfall here is 12 inches, but so far this year it's been far below that. This year may well be another one where water rationing is mandated. Been there, done that, where I was carrying out bowls of used kitchen water to the garden. Still not as difficult as what bart goes through, though.

Catspa,I was delighted to read your post. Most of roses and plants get by on rainfall, and they must do so because even if I had running water, there are too many for me to irrigate artificially. Like Melissa, I wanted to only water plants in their first year after being put out. Now, in these past few years,what with my experimenting with floribundas and all of the weather problems (too hot, too dry), I'm hoping to water a small area regularly,but this area is mostly filled with floribundas and other moderns.

Ingrid, just FYI, 'Reine des Violettes' (like many purples) is highly sensitive to alkaline conditions. GREAT if you have more acidic conditions. AWFUL in alkaline conditions.

That is so useful to know, Jeri, so thank you for chiming in. For some reason I'd assumed that my soil is more alkaline, but I've just learned that soil derived from granite tends to be more acidic, and I do have granite formations and boulders on my property. On the other hand I imagine that soil right next to my house, where my roses will be located, is most likely awful stuff left by the builders, although slightly amended by now as there are some things growing there. Wild Edric has bloomed there for some years, and Aloha and Sweet Frances are putting out new growth (and Grandmother's Hat has a bud!). Your photo of Reine de Violettes is gorgeous!

My purple roses do very well in our alkaline soil. They are grafted mostly on Dr Huey, though The Prince is grafted on multiflora rootstock. I get really deep colors from all these roses. Diane

Ingrid, since you are limited in the number of roses you can practically grow, I would choose roses that really make your heart sing. Of the two, I think you know which one that is, so I say go for it and get RdV! I assume ARE roses are own root? Having an alkaline-tolerant rootstock certainly helps. However the main issue for me is not so much my off-the-scale alkaline soil, which locks out minerals and causes chlorosis - I manage that with acidic compost, acidic feed and the occasional dose of chelated iron - but the fact that purple roses all turn magenta as soon as the summer heat kicks in. Nevertheless I enjoy the Spring purple period, although I could never match the purple perfection of Diane’s roses.

Thanks, Nollie. I do use Lilly Miller's Organic Granular Fertilizer for acid loving plants as one of my fertilizers, so that may acidify the soil a bit. Diane

Nollie, I have the same problem with purple roses turning pink in our hot summers here. Yes, the roses are own-root, which I think I prefer. Plum Perfect is already here, with the gardener slated to come today to plant it and the four other roses that are sitting out in their pots. I think my plan will be to get everything in the ground and to re-evaluate a year from now about RdV. I'm having him take out Quicksilver, which in any case is in the wrong spot for a climber, and especially after what Moses said about its growth and blooming habits. I don't feel guilty about discarding roses as their sale has helped the nursery in question and I don't have much space to work with. It was basically two skinny stalks so no great loss. However, I am so thrilled to have some blooms to look forward to later in the year!

Hope the planting goes well Ingrid and I can imagine your excitement of seeing roses bloom in your garden again. I had wanted Plum Perfect for ages, but settled for substitutes because it’s never been officially released in Europe. I shall be interested to see how it does for you.

I hope you have better luck with Plum Perfect than we had. Here in the desert it lost all its leaves as soon as the heat came on while its neighbors toughed it out. Your conditions are not as extreme so fingers crossed for you!

Here's hoping that it becomes available in Europe at some time, Nollie, and that it would do well in your conditions.

Maria, thank you for mentioning your experience with Plum Perfect. I would say the natural habitat here is probably high desert, but with added things I've planted such as two crape myrtles on either side of PP and Coles Settlement, a rose that gets quite tall, behind it hopefully mitigating the heat.

Oh joy, I just ran out to look at all my roses, and Grandmother's Hat has a second tiny bud! I actually have twelve roses if I were to count the super tiny Conrad Ferdinand Meyer and equally little ?Cl. Caroline Testout. They don't look very promising but neither are they dead so I'm not giving up on them.

I'm so sad that I lost my precious Plum Perfect. I tried writing to Kordes to ask if it was sold anywhere in Europe, but they never answered.

Out of the Kordes Sunbelt range, I have only come across Crazy Love (La Villa Cotta) and South Africa (Golden Beauty) sold in Europe. I too wanted Plum Perfect for the delicious colour, although it would probably be more pink here. If it became available I would doubtless try it, but I no longer lust after it. It certainly sounds as if it is not as good as advertised in hot climates, given Maria’s experience and perhaps Barts..

South Africa did do well here, but I wasn’t keen on the brassy tones (I prefer clear yellow or lemon) and it just didn’t set my heart afire.

Ingrid, how thrilling to have those tiny buds I have some too on Marie Pavié and Cramoisi Superieur, but they may not make it. My weather has been unrelentingly and unusually wet and stormy for the last three weeks.

Nollie, I have fond memories of my Marie Pavie; it was such a delightful little rose. Yours I'm sure will give you many lovely flowers later in the year.

Here's a photo of mine from 2019 having a close communication with International Herald Tribune, another gorgeous little rose. I do love the polyanthas , who retain all the charm of the old roses but with a much smaller footprint.

Sultry, wonderful. I love the goat girls and the roses they are named after. Diane

The rose photos and the baby goats are ravishing. Ha, I imagine the goats would love to snack on the roses!

O, baby goats!!!!!!!!!!! heart heart heart heartheart heart!!!!!!!

I have grown both in the lower Mid-Atlantic. Soil is red acidic clay. USDA Zone 7a. Had REINE DES VIOLETTES (grafted) for several years and PLUM PERFECT (own root) two years. They are completely different roses.

REINE DES VIOLETTES is a tall, arching plant. Although classified as a Hybrid Perpetual, its growth habit reminds me of the taller Bourbons. Completely thornless canes that were a joy to handle. Every part of the plant is fragrant, from the blooms to the stems, foliage, and canes. Just handling any part of it will leave your hands with a rosy spicy scent. Just wonderful. PROFUSE spring flush followed by a smattering of blooms throughout the growing season. The blooms are a mauve color blend that shifts from cherry pink to soft violet right before the petals drop. PERFECT old garden flower form (quartered with button eye) but ZERO vase life. Better than average black spot resistance (especially for a mauve rose) but without spraying the canes will be naked by August. Shovel pruned because of poor repeat bloom and vase life.

PLUM PERFECT has been a disappointment. I always give my roses three years to show what they are capable of. PP had better improve or else next year I am going to dig it up and shred it. Advertised as having superior disease resistance, which it does not. Defoliates quickly from black spot. Growth habit is modern but vigor own root has been weak. I don't think the roots can handle my heavy clay soil. Blooms are a consistent deep mauve (plum, it is aptly named) with none of RDV's color shift. No fragrance that I can detect but the blooms ARE perfectly formed and last in a vase. Average number of thorns. It is a pretty rose, but has nowhere near the sheer beauty of Reine des Violettes.

My RdV is smaller. It is own root.

Patrick, your comments are so helpful! Beyond that, you write so beautifully that I have to keep re-reading. Blackspot is not an issue here, but repeat bloom and vase life very much are. Having roses indoors is one of the joys of my life, and not being able to enjoy a rose as beautiful as RdV inside would be a loss. I also don't really have room for a tall, arching plant outside although Sheila says hers is smaller, and her conditions are closer to mine.

Plum Perfect from your description seems to be a more boring, one-note rose but for me the color would mitigate that to some extent, as would extended vase life. As I already have PP in the ground I'm resolved to like it, and will reluctantly leave RdV to others to enjoy.

I agress with Jeri. If your soil is alkaline, you will not see the full beauty Reine des Violettes has to offer. Mine was very chlorotic and rarely summoned the energy to bloom.