Moses I like your post in this subject. I also think that while Kordes has had great success regarding blackspot resistance many of their blooms (except Earth Angels) are not as full of charm as the Austin’s or the Antiques.

I like both Antiques and Moderns, but in general prefer the look of the Austin’s. I do not love many of the hybrid teas because of their skinny upright habits.

edit: i have added several new antique once bloomers to my garden and I am very pleased with them.

Both are good IMO. I am starting to think that some antiques may have a certain vigour and reliability in my difficult conditions however, especially perhaps the "found "roses. I agree with daniela about the HTs.

Total dilettante here...no commitment to anything...although have stuck with species roses through thick and thin but agree they are not for everyone (unless your gardens are a wild hot mess like mine).

I am happy with either so long as they can cope with my crazily erratic climate. Sadly, most teas, noisettes, hybrid musks and chinas can’t. Rugosas simply hate my heavy alkaline clay so they are out too. I do have a few healthy, rain, humidity and heat tolerant old roses that can also survive my winter lows, mostly in the bourbon/portland/damask classes, but probably a good 2/3rds of mine are modern roses.

I love most bloom forms from simple single blooms to semi-double to quartered and full on frou-frou, but I try and avoid deeply cupped blooms because they tend to ball and rot here. Nor am I fond of the high-centred bloom on a stick look of most hybrid teas.

I agree with Moses that modern, healthy roses with old fashioned blooms are often the best of both worlds, but some with vigorous, upright canes and super shiny foliage can lack the romance and FRAGRANCE of some of the olde worlde beauties.

I blow hot and cold on Austins, although some are beautiful, healthy roses for me, many have also met the shovel. My best are Munstead Wood, Gertrude Jekyll and Harlow Carr. Most Austin apricots and yellows are disease magnets, something in the breeding lines there, but there are a few I am nevertheless fond of.

• Three Austin roses that I grew and really liked in the past were Bishop's Castle, Carding Mill and Evelyn as they were beautiful and also blended so well with the many antique varieties I grew. I now have only Wild Edric, which is an Austin but is so blatantly of the rugosa type that I don't really think of it as an Austin. Princess Anne and Gertrude Jekyll are two that I would grow now if I could have a larger rose garden again.
• That being said my heart really belongs to the old roses ; they have such diversity, character and history. It's not just the flowers but also the variety of their bush and foliage shapes and sizes that make them utterly fascinating. It's really what your heart longs for and what satisfies it.

I like both. Thank you for the picture of Mme. Dore. I have that one, and it's a favorite. I thought I'd lost it in the eight inches of snow we got here in January, but it's coming back and has a bud on it now.

I like and have both. Teas & Noisettes do very well here. They are like, 'Set It & Forget It' roses with very little care. Some Hybrid perpetuals, Hybrid Musks, & Polyanthas also do well here with minimal care. Some Austins do well for me. Hybrid Teas etc, Except the Kordes, involve more watering etc. I dont spray but I will pull off diseased leaves if they get too bad.

When I think of roses I would want out in front of my house here, that can be reliably disease free, bloom continuously, and have little care, it would be: Rosette Delizy, Mrs B R Cant, Cecil Brunner Spray, Spirit of Freedom, Quicksilver, Bathsheba, Pat Austin, Mel's Heritage. There are others but those come to mind first.

Most of our roses are old, and those are for the most part "found" roses. We've found that, for us, roses that managed to survive and flourish with no care over a century or more, will be the toughest, most successful roses in our cr*ppy soil and water.

That said, we have our fair share of moderns. They, too, are cultivars that have shown themselves to be tough, adaptable, and generous of bloom. I mean . . . Look at things like Kim Rupert's 'Annie Laurie McDowell'! Look at Paul Barden's 'Mel's Heritage' and, gee, 'Jeri Jennings'.

I wouldn't forgo any of them.

'Mel's Heritage'

'Annie Laurie McDowell'

'Jeri Jennings'

"Grandmother's Hat"

I have a bed out front by the road that has 9 roses in it. A good mix of OGR's and David Austin's. Munstead Wood, Marchesa Boccella (2), Abraham Darby, Yolanda d Aragon (2), The Prince, Molineux, LD Braithwaite. I like the mix a lot.

The Prince

Molineux

Marchesa Boccella

Munstead Wood with Marchesa Boccella to the left

Yolinda d Aragon

I can't find a photo of LD Braithwaite. It's a big bush with large cherry red blooms.

Belle, I'm so glad you have Madame Dore. If I had the space and energy I'd have her, Yolande d'Aragon, Mel's Heritage, Annie Laurie McDowell and Grandmother's Hat. Also La France and so many more, but only in my dreams. If the ones I have now survive and bloom that would already be heaven on earth.

Souvenir du President Carnot, an early hybrid tea to treasure

Both! I figure if you like the old ones, the new ones are part of the historical continuum too. I've moved, but I was just sent some pictures of the roses I planted when I lived in Little Rock. I'll post them here. All of these are no spray, and nearly organic -- they did have some synthetic fertilizer, so not 100% organic. Still, I was pretty amazed at how well roses could resist blackspot in the humid south with a lot of sun, optimal water and fertilizer, and resistant varieties. These all weathered several central Arkansas winters with little issue.

Above: some random NoID iris with Madame Alfred Carriere in the background

Monsieur Tillier fighting with various weeds, grass, and irises

Annie Laurie McDowell (left) seen obliquely (the fence is angled there -- the plant is much wider than it looks) and G Nabonnand (right)

Sombreuil (Colonial White) in the foreground, Belinda's Dream is next, followed by something on Fort that is supposed to be Evelyn but I think is some other Austin, followed by a peony and Clementina Carbonieri (blooming like mad!)

Lastly, Mrs BR Cant at the Campus Garden looking lush. This particular rose gets little care and has to fight for space in an herb bed. I'd definitely suggest this rose to anyone in Central Arkansas. Heck, all of the stuff I grew in my own garden was excellent too! I can't wait to sort out some sort of gardening situation now that I've moved back to Washington!

K S, the roses you planted are so beautiful, and I'm imagining how spectacular they'll be in a few years along that fence. How exciting to begin again in a new location; I hope you'll take us along your journey.

I definitely find myself drawn to the antique roses and thats 99% of what I have, I love the history of them and that they’ve been handed down through generations of gardens. I have a handful of newer roses but aside from one or two of those, I don’t find them as exciting, and the old ones seem to more low maintenance as well. I had some newer rose casualties over the winter and I’m going to replace them with some oldies.

I’m also drawn to antique varieties of other flowers too, like peonies, daffodils, tulips, and I even grow heirloom vegetables and historic fruit trees so there’s definitely a theme 😊

Thank you Ingrid, your Souvenir du President Carnot is really beautiful -- all translucency and softness with little sharper edges, like whipped cream. Really wonderful!

No doubt once I get gardening again I'll be back to share here. Even though Houzz makes things difficult, there is just so much knowledge here that I can't stay away for long. :)

I wish I had discovered antique roses before I went on a crazy buy up all the david austin and popular modern roses spree. I love all my roses, but am starting to incorporate more antiques and wishing I had more. I didn’t think they would like my dry hot climate in Arizona 8b. I have SDLM, sombreuil, and francis dubreuil which have done amazing here. I also have lady banks, but that’s pretty much a weed rose around here- grows anywhere and everywhere. I recently planted variegata di bologna a month ago and the thing must really love Arizona because for a tiny rose it has over 10 blooms on it. I hope it survives the brutal heat. I have it planted in afternoon sun and our high temp last year was 113. I have never heard of Souvenir du President Carnot, but another one to add to my long list, thank you :)

I've been watching various shows on youtube, mostly different home gardeners who grow roses, which is to tide me over until my motley group of new roses puts on some growth. What I notice is that the modern roses all have pretty much the same foliage and growth habits. It gets a bit monotone and is one of the reasons I love the oldies so much. There are many different groups and each have their own personality, not only in the types an sizes of the flowers but also in the widely varying foliage and in the sizes of the shrubs themselves. That definitely keeps my interest in a way that modern roses haven't quite measured up to.

I will say, though, that an early Austin, Gertrude Jekyll, grown as a climber against a house wall, was a thing of beauty, and I wouldn't hesitate to welcome her into my garden at all.

I'm a big fan of growing both antiques and moderns - the way it extends the blooming season in my climate is my favorite thing. This spring we've had a lot of warm, dry weather and for the first time ever, I've already got three roses in bloom in April (Pompon de Paris, Lady Banks, Mutabulis)! Yet I also have an alba that hasn't even leafed out yet (Koenigan van Danemark). I love the variety and that all the roses aren't the same.

Thank heavens it isn't an "either - or" issue.

So true, monarda. Why limit yourself when you can draw from the widest possible selection? Every garden should be a wonderful reflection of the owner's personality and loves, not a cookie cutter example of the latest popular roses to hit the market. Diversity rules!

OGRs=mostly once blooming, sloppy bush habits, black spot magnets, thorns galore, wonderful scent with few exceptions, short necks, nodding and weak necks, disheveled blossoms, fast petal drop, limited color range, aside from teas and some others, good winter hardiness....

Modern Roses=repeat blooming, tidy bush habit suitable to smaller gardens, many fight black spot very well, thorns less numerous, many scent less or low scent, longer necks, less nodding blooms, more organized blooms, longer petal life, wide blossom color range, winter hardy with exceptions....

This is how I see OGR's VS. Modern Roses

Moses.

Oh, Moses. OGRs are graceful survivors. They blend in with naturalistic landscapes beautifully. They have a modest nodding charm that lends itself to large gardens like mine. They bring great joy. They are healthy for the most part and often look best unpruned. To each his own.

Maybe I’m an odd one out but being once blooming has never bothered me with my OGR roses, I look at them the same way I look at our dogwoods, wild azaleas and even the daffodils and peonies I planted, in that I enjoy them while I have them in bloom and its a beautiful thing. My peonies are probably the most fleeting flower in my garden but man, they’re worth it, I just love them. By summer I’m usually busy with my vegetable garden and other things that I don’t feel like I’m missing out in my roses not blooming and I also have other flowers like dahlias, zinnias etc. to add color. At least when my roses are mostly in bloom it‘s before the weeds go crazy and I can enjoy them fully without cursing the yardwork that I need to do.

Most of my OGRs are problem free and usually the few times when blackspot becomes an issue it’s towards end of summer anyways when things are winding down so I don’t bother fighting it much.

Yes Sheila. There is a genuineness to OGRs, they being roses from the origins of keeping roses in gardens, many with rich histories modern roses lack. The modern roses are a product of commerce, older varieties regularly being out done in some aspect or another by new varieties that we, "must have!", making last year's rose obsolete/disposable. It's a vicious cycle that OGR's are immune to. Their constancy makes them an anchor in this hectic ever changing modern world.

This quality, I gladly concede, makes OGR's beyond reproof.

Moses.

When I was carrying a branch of Excellenz von Schubert up the stairs last fall to put in a vase, I thought, if my garden had only this rose it would be enough; nor have never seen lovelier roses than the early hybrid teas Gruss an Aachen or La France. The Rusgosa Agnes is to die for -- and on and on.

In my prior garden most of my roses were antiques and they bloomed nine months of the year with no disease (thanks to my climate I imagine) and a great variability in color, size and type of bloom. I had teas, polyanthas, Bourbons, Chinas and older hybrid teas and they were a joy. If I lived near Moses it might be a different story as location is all-important.

I agree with KS’ sentiment that ”the new ones are part of the historical continuum too”, given many OGR classes are themselves a product of their wild rose ancestors that have been the result of deliberate breeding. Then there are the transitional roses like early hybrid teas, hybrid rugosas, polyanthas and hybrid musks that are often classed as OGRs but are really transitional rather than being firmly in one camp or the other. Not forgetting those that are classed as OGR but were bred very recently and those that are definitely not, but exhibit many of their historical origins and traits, from breeders such as Guillot, Austin, André Eve, Ducher…

’Modern’ is a huge catchall spanning a very long period and encapsulates as much variety of habit, foliage, health and bloom as the older classes, in my view. I have graceful modern roses with fabulous form, foliage, fragrance and health and some OGRs that demonstrably do not. I could never say that old is superior to new or vice versa because my experience tells me that is absolutely not the case.

However, I do know what you mean, Ingrid regarding (some) modern roses being rather monotonous. I am thinking in particular the ones with sturdy, upright habits, often very thorny, lacking elegance, with high gloss foliage, apeing the old fashioned bloom and calling them renaissance, nostalgic, romantic roses etc., but kind of falling flat in other respects. Perhaps we should call these types Post Modern!

Ingrid, your garden is/was so beautiful!

nollie, you make some excellent points. Perhaps we would be best served by evaluating each rose on its individual merits rather than going by strict classification, which in some ways is not so strict after all. In the end, it's always what speaks to you persoally is what should be in your life and your garden.

I've been thinking about this thread a lot as I walk around my garden. If it weren't for the antique roses, nothing would be in bloom yet. If it weren't for the antique roses, everything would have the same upright vase shape and glossy leaves. If it weren't for the antique roses, I'd have to do so much more garden maintenance and pruning. There's so much about the antique roses that I'm crazy about - I like modern roses, but I LOVE antique roses. And I think the ones I Iove most are those that only bloom once per year.

ElfRosa, your heartfelt words say it all, which I understand to mean that it is our passions that dictate what we put in our gardens, and that's a very individual thing. I was looking at Plum Perfect this morning and thought there is no other rose that quite has that color, modern or antique, and that's why I have it. Wild Edric goes from deep pink to almost purple but never bright red, a color I really don't like, and that's why it's here. But, yes, the oldies have my heart too, no apologies or explanations needed.