Some AI to help visualize :)

How are the different? Both have stools looking into the working part of the kitchen. What's behind is a non factor.

We vote for the option 2 with the island facing the sink.

Now you have posts all over the place about this kitchen so go back and check answers

It shouldn't exist at all. It completely crowds the kitchen. You should create a much more useful and functional L peninsula from where you can't take those walls down.

Were I sitting at the island, I'd want to see out the window and sliders a bit, so the first drawing accomplishes that. However, the first drawing is way too crowded. The island is too close to the dining table. Not nearly enough room for someone sitting at the table to pull their chair out. Really bad circulation. So in the end, neither of these layouts reallly works well.

A: clearance is not ideal. Wonder if island could be a bit narrower and add stools that slide under vs a bulky style.

I like its location better, as seating for four is more practical/interactive and has a nicer connection to living room. In your decision, consider your usage (prep sink, wine fridge, garbage/recycle, etc) and which location will function better.

Neither Both are just awful. You need to get a good kitchen designer involved here, and a structural engineer. It might cost 30K to get rid of those awful little walls, but the resulting design would be so much better that it would be worth it.

Both are attempting to make the kitchen be something it isn’t. It does not have the space to do either. It is a room that would highly benefit from having the walls put back up.

Most of the aisles are an issue. In addition to the comments above about a work aisle, the aisle behind seats is also too shallow:

1. When there is nothing but a blank wall behind the seats and a "dead end" (i.e., a peninsula that ends at a wall) -- 36" minimum.
2. If there are cabinets or appliances or counter behind the seats but very little traffic -- 48"
3. If above + traffic -- 54"
4. If there is seating on both sides of the aisle (e.g., counter seating on one side and table on the other) -- 60"
5. Remember -- aisles are measured to/from the items sticking out into the aisle the farthest (e.g., appliance handles, counter overhangs if no appliances or other items sticking out farther)

How does this apply to your layouts?

Layout #1:

• There is only about 39" b/w the island and top sink wall. There should be at least 42" if only one person will be working in the Kitchen at a time. (I.e., while someone is prepping, no one is loading/unloading the DW, getting a snack, doing other things) Since I see two sinks (but only one range/cooktop so likely not a Kosher Kitchen), I assume this is a Kitchen for more than one person working in it at the same time, so that aisle really should be 48" wide.
• There is only about 44" b/w the back of the island and the counter on the other side of the aisle. Given that there is a counter & cabinets as well as it being a path for traffic, you should have closer to 54".
• There is just under 48"b/w the table and island. This has a potential to be a high-traffic path b/c if the sliding doors on the "top" wall, that aisle should also be closer to 54".
• The aisle b/w the range and island is fine!
• I would check on the depth of the refrigerator with the doors open 90 degrees. That should be in the specs. Be sure you have the max depth + 3" or so b/w

Layout #2:

• The aisle b/w the top sink wall and island is OK
• The aisle b/w the range and island is a bit too narrow. It's 41" and really should be 48" for the same reasons I stated above for Layout #1
• The aisle b/w the refrigerator and island is OK.
• The aisle behind the seats is OK for the "top" seat, but there is overlap with the "bottom" seat and cabinets/counter -- it's only around 36" wide. It's not much overlap, but it will impact people trying to squeeze by that seat when someone is sitting there.

Not sure I agree with those who said there is no room for an island. Perhaps you have to be in the space to get a better feel. However, I am open minded to change - so that end, am going to throw this one out there for some feedback.

Put the walls back up. Taking them down was the worst possible thing you could have done. It was not at all beneficial.

Monique - which walls are you referring to? Thanks

" Not sure I agree with those who said there is no room for an island. Perhaps you have to be in the space to get a better feel. "

Math does not lie. Grab some cardboard, cut it to actual full size and lay it out on the floor. You will see what everyone is telling you.

When you can't even get the new refrigerator into the kitchen, I guess you will wish you had listened.

Well I posted a new concept - would love to know what people think about that one.

Appreciate people's thoughts, but still not really so clear on why a single island does't fit when there is 4' of clearence on all sides except on the range which literally overlaps the island by like 1/3 and the other 2/3's is wide open. Besides the 3' by the wall which is literally just a walkway I still am not seeing the major issue here. And to Buehl's comment about squeezing by, we could just get rid of the cabinets on the short wall.

Showing here image of cabinets removed from short wall

Option A with a rectangle table to create more walking room between island and table.

100% on the regctangle table.

Here's a modified version of A. We swapped the seating location and narrowed the center island to 24". Also, ran the peninsual cabinets along the short wall with an upper cabinet to better connect with the architecture of the space.

Aisles are showing to be 42" 43" on each side of the center island and closer to 45" - 48" along the range wall. Then 48" behind the seating which we could increase by reducing the cabinet depths in the peninsula but the landing zone for the fridge would become farther away.

Feels sort of like a "broken U" design where the peninsula would form the final leg of the U shape.

No to all. None of it works.

Verde Arroyo Designs - why do you say that? Where do see an issue and what would you otherwise recommend?

None of the above. You are trying really hard to turn a small kitchen into a large Insta one. And ruining it in the process.

Suppose we shrink the depth of the peninsula?

Or a reverse L peninsula?

Not a pro but any way to get the fridge in a different spot? i would not like it over there by itself

definitely like the space without the island - kitchen seems less like a racetrack

Unfortunately, really because of the space and because we want to use the existing 2 36" subzeros we already own, moving the fridge to a different location is a bit challening, I think. We've tried all sorts of locations but nothing seems to work.

You could remove the eat-at countertop peninsula by the far away fridges and put a wall in the location of those stools so the fridges could be up against that wall and much closer to your work spaces. Then maybe move your pantry closer to where the fridges are in your drawings, depending on how that affects doorways/walkways.

Nova - we've thought about that one but it really constricts the kitchen and we aren't looking to make it smaller. Another thought was to move the seating backwards and keep the main aisles clear and seating out of the way.

I personally would nix the counter seating, because you've got a table and chairs right there. I don't like the multiple island/peninsula situations, it will make your kitchen into a pac man maze. I do actually dig the L (again would remove the seats by fridge) I think it makes a lot of sense. Or the plan with the East-West island, without the extra cabinetry by the short non-removable wall -- I find the idea of "blocking" the fridge access to be strange.

rebasheba - we did set up some bookcases and island furniture in the kitchen last night and the L did seem to work nicely. It is, I think, nice to have a few chairs in the kitchen for socializing and the chairs sit only in front of the freezer which accessed much less often than the fridge which is 100% clear of obstruction. But point taken and we appreciate your constructive feedback.

A couple of issues with the L that have come up:

1. Resale and the "Island Trend" - people want islands.

2. Sink in the L vs. on the wall. In putting together the renderings, an L with no sink just seems like a silly piece of furniture in the room. With the sink, it has purpose and function much more so. But, again, it's a sink in the peninusla. I've tried to address this by adding something like in the below pic.

3. It does move the dairy sink away from the range vs. next to.

4. Moving the sink means no sink closer to the fridge.

Regardless of trends though, it does seem to look and feel nice. Range wall also looks better.

"I find the idea of "blocking" the fridge access to be strange."

I dont disagree, though again, its the freezer that is blocked, and the issue is having a proper landing zone.

I really like @course411's idea!!!

All of this angst and all of the input, and it was never shared until almost the last, that this was a Kosher kitchen, and needed a specialty division between meat and dairy functions.

THIS is why you work with a pro, and they interview you and drag out all of those important details. That doesn't make any of the bad design weirdness any better, but it does explain some of the though process better behind it.

HIRE A KITCHEN DESIGNER IMMEDIATELY.

Minardi - we did. And, for example, the first concept A with the two islands came from a guy with 35 years experience. Go figure. No one here likes it.

Should have noted up front it was a kosher kitchen, forgot to mention in this thread. My bad!

OK, after taking some of your suggestions, and incorporating some of our own as well as some input from a couple of designers, here's what we've got.

In this approach, we've the got the two sub-zeros acting as 'bookends' to the L shaped kitchen. The fridge is now close to both the meat and dairy sinks. As is the freezer, though a little further away near the range.

The dairy sink utilizes the short wall with its 'built in' backsplash and is hidden from the seating at the peninsula. We're cheating a little bit because the left side of the sink doesn't have the 'required' space but we do have the long countertop to the right. We've also speced here a 30" sink in a 36" cabinet but could in theory go as small as 24" to make some extra room.

The double oven goes to the back wall with the walk in pantry to the left and pantry cabinet to the right. Landing across at the peninsula. There are the stools there, which is a negative in this regard, but we could also nix the stools. Not sure its necessary.

Clearances are 50" on back wall between oven handle and diners (a bit short of Buehls suggested 54" but I think we can mange). 48" between freezer and peninsula and around 8' in the open space between fridge and peninsula.

Happy to take any feedback. It doesn't fit the traditional island in the middle look everyone is going for, but maybe it still works?

One question though was should the upper cabinets above the dairy sink by 30" or 36"? We can pull the lowers out to 27". Also the question impacts the seating at the peninsula since there is a cbinet over the first seat. But we don't really want to lose the storage. Here is it with 36" uppers

So we decided on the island facing this way. We will have either a double bowl 45" meat and dairy sink under the window or 2 separate 24" sinks.

But, we are torn on the placement of the fridge.

In one design, the fridge is at the top right corner near the two sinks. The freezer is at the other end of the L. The double oven stack is on the back wall.

1. In the other design, the fridge and freezer are on the back wall together and there is the addition of a small prep sink in the island directly across from the range. The window sinks are cleanup. The double oven stack is next to the range. There is an appliance garage to the right of the sink.

The plumbing is existing for both the window and island sink

You desperately want an island. I get it! They are nice, but only if you have the space for it. I am not loving any of your island plans. I think your kitchen would be much more functional with a peninsula.

Here is an idea that would give you about 4‘ (maybe more?) aisles between the island and the sink and the island and the stove. You would have about 6’ between the freezer and island. I didn’t do the math, but I think it is pretty close.

It gives you enough space between the back to back island and dining seats. I like how there is seating on two sides of the island so you can see eachother verses in a straight row.

I put the meat sink on the island, but you could make it for dairy if you prefer.

I moved the oven to the left of the range. I slid the range down a bit more so you would have more prep space between the main sink and range. Although, you could center it on the wall if you prefer.

And if you ignore the small L shaped wall that the island is connected to, guess what? You have an Island!

I like rebunky's idea... maybe because I suggested this island location upthread, haha (before the kosher needs were clear). Great minds...or something like that?

Yes course411! I really liked your peninsula placement!